Talk:Fra Dolcino

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The rigth name should be Frair Dolcino, Fra' is not a name, just short for Frair. I already changed it but it was changed back.

  • Oppose. "Fra Dolcino" is more common in English than "Friar Dolcino" (says the Google). Similar to Fra Angelico, the foreign title seems to be more widely used. Kusma (talk) 18:58, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

You are completely rigth about the name

This book is readable in print.google.com The Influence of Prophecy in the Later Middle Ages: A Study in Joachinism by Marjorie Reeves and describes accurately the theories of Dolcino

Mariotti L. (Antonio Gallenga), Historial memoir of Fra Dolcino and his times, Brown, London 1853, pp.XII-376.

Norman Cohn, The Pursuit of the Millennium: Revolutionary Millenarians and Mystical Anarchists of the Middle Ages , London 1976 also mentions the Dulcinians (Dolcino, Fra italian millenarian p. 110)

I summarized with my words the contents of these books and other in the Dulcinian page, does Dolcino ideas belong to this page or there in the Wikipedian way?

Also the order to which he belnged appears to be called Apostolics, Apostolici (Italian), Apostolic Btrethen, Apostolic Brothers and even Apostolic Brotherhod in print.google.com


Contents

[edit] Fraticelli

Most sources do not consider Dulcinians and Apostolics as being part of the Fraticelli:

In this article the name Fraticelli is confined to heretical sects which separated from the Franciscan Order on account of the disputes concerning poverty. The Apostolics (Pseudo-Apostles or Apostolic Brethren) are excluded from the category, because admission to the Order of St. Francis was expressly denied to their founder, Segarelli (see APOSTOLICI ). They had no connexion with the Minorites, in fact desired rather to exterminate them. It is therefore necessary to differentiate the various groups of Fraticelli, although the one term may be applied to all.

Originally appearing in Volume V11, Page 42 of the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica:

Some historians, in their zeal for rigid classification, have regarded the Fraticelli as a distinct sect, and have attempted to discover its dogmas and its founder. Some of the contemporaries of these religious groups fell into the same error, and in this way the vague term Fraticelli has sometimes been applied to the disciples of Armanno Pongilupo of Ferrara (d. 1269), who was undoubtedly a Cathar, and to the followers of Gerard Segarelli and Dolcino, who were always known among them-selves as Apostolic Brethren Apostolici). Furthermore, it seems absurd to classify both the Dolcinists and the Spiritual Franciscans as Fraticelli, since, as has been pointed out by Ehrle Arch. f. Lit. u. Kirchengesch. des Mittelalters, ii. 107, &e.), Angelo of Clarino, in his De septem tribulationibus, written to the glory of the Spirituals, does not scruple to stigmatize the Dolcinists as " disciples of the devil." It is equally absurd to include in the same category the ignorant Bizocchi and Segarellists and such learned disciples of Michael of Cesena and Louis of Bavaria as William of Occam and Bonagratia of Bergamo, who have often been placed under this comprehensive rubric.

[edit] Dolcino in the Divine Comedy

Current revision says:

Dante Alighieri in his The Divine Comedy places Dolcino in Hell (Inferno XXVIII).

This is not exactly so. Dante imagines a still alive Dolcino. When he visits Muhammad in the Inferno, the latter asks Dante to deliver a message for Dolcino: "you, who will probably see soon the sun / tell Dolcino that...", etc. --Filius Rosadis 12:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

the etc. part of your comment is important ...

tell Dolcino that if he does not want to follow me here soon, he should be prepared (armed), so that the (lack of) food and the snow (bites) does not give the victory to the Noaresi (inhabitants of Novara), otherwise achiving it would be difficult. (Translated by me)

Or di’ a fra Dolcin dunque che s’armi,
Tu che forse vedrai lo sole in breve,
S’egli non vuol qui tosto seguitarmi, 
Sì di vivanda, che stretta di neve
Non rechi la vittoria al Noarese,
Ch’altrimenti acquistar non saria a lieve.

Now say to Fra Dolcino, then, to arm him, 
Thou, who perhaps wilt shortly see the sun,
If soon he wish not here to follow me,

So with provisions, that no stress of snow
May give the victory to the Novarese,
Which otherwise to gain would not be easy.

Better maybe

Dante Alighieri in his The Divine Comedy mentions Dolcino as being soon awaited in Hell (Inferno XXVIII).

Dante's verses are as always very deep, my interpretation is that Dolcino deserves Hell because of his military adventure, so Dante does not completely condamn his ideas. Important

BTW the affirmation of Dolcino being the father of socialism anarchism and a precursor of the french revolution are maybe a little exaggerated. I would not believe entirely what bernard gui and the inquisition says but that seems to me a little forced. Maybe we can say that a few do so.

The Inquisition accused the Duilcinians of practicing free sex between them and do not consider the marriage as a binding, can we say he was a precursor of the Hippy movement in the '60?

I added anarchism because at least a book was written on this argument: Burat Tavo, The Christian Anarchy of Fra Dolcino and Margherita, 2002. And because most anarchist site or leftist sites like indymedia features articles exploiting this figure.

I'd say the Noarese (the -single- Novarese) is the bishop of Novara (or even the bishop of Vercelli). Most analysts say so. --Filius Rosadis 13:12, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Most probably dante used Noarese because of the rhyme would be intresting to see your sources and their arguments if any.

In Italian language both meanings are possible and both widely used, in this case il noarese single person from Novara, or collectively the people from novara (a single element representing the whole).

Writes Nicolo Tomaseo in 1800: "Corron sett'anni da questo vaticinio di Maometto alla morte di Dolcino. Maometto difende un seminatore di scisma par suo. Fu eremita ed eretico novarese, e predicò comuni le mogli, e simili cose: fece tremila seguaci, e per due anni si resse, finchè stretto tra' monti del Vercellese, e dall'alta neve impeditogli rubare le vettovaglie, fu da que' di Novara e da tutti i Lombardi, accorsi quasi crociati, preso; e nel 1306 con altri de' suoi e con la sua Margherita arso vivo...." (Dolcino was captured by the people of Novara and Lombardy accurred all as crusaders)

Writes Mario Fubini: "moto e vita porta nel canto quella improvvisa profezia-consiglio di Maometto, tanto diversa nella sua vivacità da tutto quel che precede e sulla quale vano sarà al solito voler psicologicamente sottilizzare, discutendo sulla opportunità di un consiglio effettivamente inutile o su di una pretesa malizia di quel dannato, per non sentirvi altro che una commossa partecipazione del Poeta a un avvenimento prossimo al tempo in cui scriveva, la commozione per quella difesa disperata di fra Dolcino (che non implica un’approvazione dell’opera dell’eretico) ". (The passage express the commotion of the author for that desperate defense that does not imply approval for his operate).

Maybe it should be noted that the Novara region is the left part of the Sesia Valley while the Vercelli region is the lower right part of the same Valley and Biella is near the higher right part. Cima delle Balme (m 1930), left of Sesia near novara, then Piano dei Gazzari (m 1426), right of Sesia near vercelli.

Curiosly there is now a row between present day Vercelli and Novara both affirming Dolcino was from ther city.

Re "il Noarese": It is true that most commentators today regard this as a singular circumscribing all the Novaresians participating in the crusade against Dolcino. A minority of commentators take it to refer to the bishop of Novara (Uguccione Borromeo), yet Uguccione and the Novaresians had only a minor part in this conflict, whereas it was the bishop of Vercelli (Raniero Avogadro, who was not from Novara) who played a much more prominent role in organizing the crusade, and it was also him, according to the anonymous Historia fratris Dulcini, who sentenced Dolcino to death. In my own research I have reached the conclusion that the most likely candidate is the Dominican Inquisitor Emanuele Testa of Novara described by a later source as the local Inquisitor preaching the crusade and organizing it together with the bishop, and who in the end also sentenced Dolcino to death (acting in accordance with the local bishop, it would have been required by the normal procedure).
Re Dolcino's origins: There is no doubt -- and no debate between these cities -- that Dolcino was from Novara (if not from the city of Novara, at least from the diocesis of Novara). All contemporary sources and legal documents refer to him as (frater) Dulcinus de Novara or Novariensis.
Re Dolcino in Dante: Dante is associating Dolcino with Mohammed, as a "brother" in heresy and in violating the body and unity of the Christian Church, as I have explained elsewhere on the grounds of important biblical and exegetical subtexts of this episode, see http://www.lieberknecht.de/~diss/index.html. --195.233.250.6 (talk) 19:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] People of the valley against or for Dolcino?

Anyway there is discussion about a League of the Valsesian people to fight Dolcino it does even exist a Statute of Scopello (near Vercelli) of this league but it is considered by some a false that was created 1793 (the same year as the French Revolution) by nobles and priests worried about a possible positive rediscover of Dolcino fuelled by the revolutioner ideas. On the other side this statute was cited by G.B Fassola in 1672 long before the Revolution and taken as an example of the contribute given by the people of Novara in the fight against eresy.

"Statutum Ligae contra Haereticos" of the 24 agosto 1305 signed by most cities of the valley on 3 september 1305 in the "Ecclesia Sancti Bartholomaei" of Scopa (another village near Vercelli) the crusade was officially declared.


The most reasonable explanation I have read is that the fact that many in the higher parts of valley were Dulcinian does not mean that all were, besides the situation was different in the lower parts (were Vercelli and Novara lies).

There are only three documents claiming that there was a league (the pact or statute of Scopa) and even a crusade against Dolcino as early as 1305, when Dolcino and his followers where still on the Parete Calva in the Upper Valsesia (diocese of Novara). These documents are wildly at odds with reliable contemporary documentation, and they have been clearly proven by Francesco Cognasso and Rosaldo Ordano to have been forged in the 18th century, yet not for fear of revolutionary ideas, but simply for the purpose of endowing local families with post festum honours of having fought against Dolcino. --195.233.250.6 (talk) 19:21, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History

According to Apocalyptic Time, by Emmanuel Ward, Fra Dolcino and his followers were condemned by Pope Clement V in 1307, does anyone know whether this was before or after his capture?

81.208.60.196 He called the crusade against him see Dulcinian anyway anybody (exept the marxists) condemned Dolcino in the last 700 years

Another source, Contemplative Church: Joachim and His Adversaries, indicates that Fra Dolcino was the successor of Gherardo Segarelli of Parma. And that a succession of four military campaigns were called to destroy the sect.

81.208.60.196 This is clearly stated in the article I think, about the military campaigns there are complete accounts citing even the unit sent by the various italian states (among them 4000 famous archers from Genua) but that belongs probably to the Dulcinian entry

Is anything known about his early life, the birth year indicates he was in his mid fifties when he was executed. Is anything known about his early life other than he was from Navarre? --L Hamm 23:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

81.208.60.196 The argument is complex and is difficult to distinguish between the counterinformation of the Inquisition and the truth, a couple of books were written on the argument but are too complex to translate (for me) see Orioli in bibliography as he is the most authoritative contemporary source.

[edit] Citations

--Adkins 20:53, 20 October 2006 (UTC)Although there are sources listed at the end of this article, they are not cited in the text itself. The article reads a bit as if some of the info within might be open to debate; citation for specific facts throughout the article would improve its credibility. My opinion only, no offence intended.

81.208.60.196I started to cite references that I found, the problem is that this story was approached from many different points of view in the last centuries. to cite Jerry B. Pierce “Segarelli and Dolcino among the Historians,” examines the historical narratives and scholarship of the Order of Apostles and the various lenses through which the movement has been viewed. These approaches vary from the Reformation-oriented (and in some cases unabashedly anti-Catholic) slant of late nineteenth century authors such as L. Mariotti and Henry Charles Lea, to the Marxist-socialist approaches of S.D. Skaskin and Bernhard Töpfer in the mid-twentieth century, to the heroic Dolcino-as-freedom-fighter history of Eugenio Anagnine in the 1960's and even the popularizing, quasi-revisionist approaches of some late-twentieth century Italian authors such as Roberto Gremmo’s Il Tesoro di Fra Dolcino. Though English synopses exist of the history of Segarelli, Dolcino and the Apostles, they are often woefully inadequate or crudely dismissive and fail to draw upon recent Italian scholarship.

[edit] Margaret

She is mentioned by name once in the article and not otherwise discussed. Does anyone know enough about her to write about it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.195.57.31 (talk) 04:01, 29 October 2007 (UTC)