Talk:Frölunda HC

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move Part Deux 10:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC) Frölunda HC → Frölunda Indians — Commonest and official name. Mais oui! 16:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

[edit] Survey - in support of the move

1. Support - Now I do realise that the new "Indians" name is utterly, utterly appalling, but unfortunately Wikipedia is not here to change the world, just reflect it, even the absurd Americanisation of Nordic culture and language! (Oh well, I suppose that it is just another reason to support Färjestad!!) --Mais oui! 16:10, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Those native Americans certainly got around - I never knew they roamed as far as Sweden! ;-) Matthew 16:33, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in opposition to the move

1. Oppose, the official name is Frölunda HC (as stated on the official page if one clicks on "Föreningen" in the navbar). Frölunda Indians might be more common in everyday speech, but I do prefer to use the official name. – Elisson • T • C • 16:38, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
2. Oppose, as Elisson said, Frölunda HC is the official name of the organisation. Frölunda Indians is just a registered trademark. And if you look at the history of the franchise, they have had many diffrent names but always knows as just Frölunda in everyday speech. --Krm500 17:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
3. Oppose - as above and as per my comment below. Matthew 17:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Can you evidence that 'Indians' is the official name? If so, I'm happy to support the move; otherwise, the official name should probably take precedence over the popular. Matthew 16:32, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

As you can see here [1] it clearly says that the clubs official name is Frölunda Hockey Club. --Krm500 17:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

There are two "official" sites about Swedish ice hockey that seem to have two different opinions. On [2] (www.hockeyligan.se - the Elitserien site) it says Frölunda Indians, and on [3] (stats.swehockey.se - the statistics site for top three Swedish league levels, including Elitserien) they use Frölunda HC. Both are published by the Swedish Ice Hockey Association so this should not really need to happen. Furthermore, the main page of SIHA (www.swehockey.se) also says Frölunda HC on its facts database page: [4]. Bamsefar75 19:00, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

By the way, these sites also disagree on the name of Malmö Redhawks. IF Malmö Redhawks here: [5], and Malmö Redhawks on [6]. --Bamsefar75 19:08, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

IF Malmö Redhawks is the correct name. --Krm500 20:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

If so, lets move the Malmö Redhawks page instead. --Bamsefar75 02:41, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved discussion from top

Neither. Regarding objection by Johan Elisson below, observe that, for instance, the official name is "Le Club de Hockey Canadien" but the commonly used name is "Montreal Canadiens" and that is where they are found in Wikipedia. However, contra the proposed rename as well as the current name, the use of the umlaut ö is improper for the article name in the English language wikipedia. I know it seems strange to Swedish eyes, and it honestly grates on me too, but that is in fact the custom in English. The proper Swedish name can and should be given as well, but the article title and general text should use "Frolunda Indians." Arker 22:46, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't it become 'Froenlunda' if the umlaut is removed? There must be some style guidance on this matter. Matthew 00:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The common English usage simply removes the umlauts, i.e. Björn becomes Bjorn, Björk becomes Bjork etc. I'm not arguing essential correctness, but this is what the overwhelming majority of the English speaking audience will do, and expect. Policy says "One should use judgment in such cases as to what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. Whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title and mention both forms in the lead." Arker 00:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

There is and the Ö should be used if you looked over the naming convention here on wikipedia. And they are not known as the Indians by the public mass or their fans. They are simply Frölunda for hockey fans and the press for that sake. --Krm500 00:17, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

That is simply not true! They are universally referred to as "Frölunda Indians" in press, TV and other media reports. --Mais oui! 00:19, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, that's not true. Read WP:UE. Arker 00:31, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The team has had diffrent names but always just been know as Frölunda. Many teams in Elitserien has had marketing names but you never hear anyone say that the Wolwes are playing the Indians or the Blue Bulls vs. Redhawks. Frölunda HC is the official name and should therefor be used on wikipedia. If you look here [7] you don't find the word Indians anywhere in the text and this is their official media partner. Please provide an article that use Indians, I doubt that you can. --Krm500 00:44, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I was misunderstood, as the link should indicate, I'm talking about the ö, not the Indians part.

Regarding the Indians part, *if* as others have indicated that is used in the same way that most sport teams use such things, it should be used, as indicated by the Montreal example above, however I'm not personally familiar with the team and am not expressing any opinion on that per se. If what you are saying is true, then that may be a valid counterargument. Arker 01:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Several Swedish hockey teams have added an English nickname to themselves over the recent years. Can someone provide background info about why this was done? I think it would be of interest for this topic, since the nicknames are rarely used in Swedish media. Bamsefar75 15:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

See discussion at [[Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#English or Non-English article title]], no consense so far.--Krm500 00:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I note that Dusseldorf is a redirect to the main page, which has an umlauted 'u', and Harnosand redirects to the main page, which has an umlauted 'a' and 'o'. I'd type them out myself but I'm on a laptop computer right now and it's a pain in the arse for me to get those characters to appear. Matthew 01:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The policy is not universally followed, as your examples indicate. However (Düsseldorf aside) it is usually followed outside of articles on Swedish subjects. It's normal in Swedish *not* to alter names like this, and we have the good luck to have many Swedes contributing to those articles, so this is to be expected, but it's still against policy and English usage, which is why I've been trying to bring the Swedish subjects in line with policy and common English usage. Arker 01:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

The thing is that there are so many policies so they cancel them self out. If you look at the link that I provided you can clearly see that there is no consense on the subject and one of the basic rules that I have seen is to leave articles with the original name until consense is reached.--Krm500 23:10, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I would be inclined to go with retaining the umlaut for the name of the main page, as 'Frölunda' is not a name commonly used in English and therefore does not yet have a real precedent it to be spelt without its umlaut. The same spelling, without the umlaut, should redirect to the main page. Matthew 23:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Arker, AFAIK, umlauts, or completely separate letters (as å, ä and ö) are generally not removed from names. A few examples, Malmö, Göran Persson, Börje Salming, Gävle, Joakim Thåström, Björn Ulvaeus and so on. For non-Swedish stuff, how about Lübeck, Münster (note that there is also a town called Munster), Mönchengladbach and Märkisch-Oderland in Germany. Or Łódź, Wrocław and Świętokrzyskie Voivodeship in Poland. Or... I could do this forever. Mostly, if there is no English translation (such as Wien -> Vienna, München -> Munich, Gothenburg -> Göteborg, Praha -> Prague), the native name, including special characters, is used. You mentioned WP:UE. I find nothing in there that says that we should not use special latin letters or diacritics or umlauts. And even more, when it comes to sport teams. For example, despite, as mentioned, Göteborg -> Gothenburg, the football club IFK Göteborg remains at the official name (and it is a featured article, so it has been noticed). – Elisson • T • C • 18:09, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.