Talk:Fräulein

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] 2005 Comments

To Kosebamse--I had changed the meaning to "Young" because little can seem offensive, If it indeed does literally mean "little" okie, but think the other possible translation of "Miss" should be moved up next to that.

The title "Fräulein" is not in use anymore today in Germany, with only few exceptions by elderly people. It is generally considered inappropriate. I've changed the article accordingly.--195.176.20.45 15:58, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To User:152.163.100.196 or User:152.163.100.136 -- seems to be the same person

Hi, please stop adding things which you, I and everybody else knows are just not true. You may be longing, for whatever reason, for the good old days, but they are history. All the best, <KF> 22:47, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is the word "Fräulein" still being used?

Instead of your blocking the fraulein article, why don't we try to come up with some sort of wording that we both can agree on? Well I acknowledge that the term has declined in popularity, I feel that saying that the term is "hardly every used" is a bit extreem. The spirt it Wikipedia is to arrive at a compromise, not to block a page because of an edit war.

205.188.117.14

Thank you for your message. Of course I am prepared to discuss the contents of the Fräulein article—the best place to do so would of course be here, a talk page which of course has not been protected. However, repeatedly deleting my user and talk pages in a futile attempt to harm me is not going to help. Say what you have to say on this talk page—and I'm talking about arguments here, not insults—and wait for others to respond.
Personally, I'd be interested to learn if you are living in a German-speaking country or by what other means you have arrived at your conclusion (see above). All the best, <KF> 08:14, August 31, 2005 (UTC)


I don't have any personal views on the subject of the article. My reverts were done purely because the changes appeared to be vandalism. What was being repeatedly removed included the information on the song and the pictures associated with it.
I will stick a watch on this page and if you suggest a reasonable change to the content, I will request that an admin removes the block on the article.
You may also want to sign up for a free account. These sort of misunderstandings are a lot less likely to happen if the changes are made by a signed in user. --GraemeL (talk) 13:43, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Fräulein" from the German Wikipedia (August 31, 2005)

Those of you who can read German might find the corresponding article from the German Wikipedia interesting:

Fräulein (2004 in Deutschland fast außer Gebrauch) war bis in die 1970er Jahre in der Bundesrepublik und bis zur Wende in der DDR die regelmäßige Anrede (address) für noch unverehelichte junge Frauen ab dem Ende des Kindesalters. (Vgl. auch Komtess, Freiin.)
Ursprünglich war die Anrede "Fräulein" jedoch nur Standespersonen vorbehalten (auch "Herr" und "Frau" standen als Titel keinesfalls allen zu). Vgl. Goethes "Faust I", wo Faust sich an Gretchen heran macht: Mein schönes Fräulein, darf ich's wagen, Mein Arm und Geleit Ihnen anzutragen ..., und sie ihn als durchaus selbstbewusste Kleinbürgertochter abblitzen lässt: Bin weder Fräulein weder schön, Kann ungeleit' nach Hause gehn.
Vergleichbares zum "Fräulein" findet sich auch in anderen europäischen Sprachen (z.B. im Schwedischen fröken, im Englischen Miss).
Die Frauenbewegung der 70er Jahre kritisierte diese Anrede wegen der inhärenten gesellschaftlichen Werte und Vorstellungen, die darin zum Tragen kommen. Das Wort Fräulein impliziert, dass eine weibliche Person erst dann zur Frau wird, wenn sie geheiratet und somit entjungfert (deflowered) wird. Ein männliches Pendant (equivalent) (Männlein) gibt es dementsprechend auch nicht, da Männer in diesem Wertesystem aus sich heraus schon genug sind, um den Titel "Mann" zu tragen, wohingegen Frauen erst von einem Mann zur Frau gemacht werden müssten.


[edit] August 31, 2005

It is important to realize that there are certain elderly and socially convervative speakers who prefer to use the term. Certainly, there is a significant number of unmarried, older woman (over the age of 50, say) who would consider it inappropriate to be addressed as "Fräu." I suggest that the wording of the article be changed to reflect this fact. Instead of saying "is hardly ever used", I would say perhaps "as a result of the feminist movement of the 1970s, the usage of this term has declined and many women consider the term to be offensive" or something to that degree. Even though the use of the word "Miss" has declined in English, one would not say that the term is never used. I am interested in hearing some other opinions on the subject though....

Sounds like a good solution to me. Some explanation of the differences in attitude between the age groups is certainly better than removing the content. --GraemeL (talk) 18:57, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
So will you please remove the block?
I don't have the ability to do that. There seems to be an important copyright discussion going on in IRC at the moment. Once that is over, I will ask there. --GraemeL (talk) 20:39, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Unblocked as per request. Jtkiefer T | @ | C ----- 20:49, August 31, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] To the anon users re-fighting this war.

Any unsourced assertion with "educated Xes" is extremely suspect on Wikipedia, as it sounds self-aggrandizing. "All men of learning agree that the so-called Founding Fathers of the United States were nothing more than a vocal minority, ultimately a failure on the world stage." "Philosophers, religious and secular alike, concur that strawberry ice cream tastes significantly better than chocolate." Just because YOU prefer to use Fräulein doesn't mean all "educated people" do. SnowFire 23:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Snowfire, I concur and I have thus eliminated the term ´´educated speakers´´ from the article. You were however incorrect to revert the article since the previous version implies that nobody uses the term ´´fraulein´´. I do not understand why you reverted the article when you could have simply made the correction. In the future, I would suggest more thorough research into articles before blindly performing reverts. (Above written by 201.79.37.127. -SF)

Well, at least this is more a factual dispute now, not as much a style dispute. That said, the accusation of "blindly reverting" is rich. Let's examine the history now, shall we:
  • 5 March 2005 Early version. Says "The expression has gone out of fashion and is now widely considered derogatory."
  • 17 July 2005 Wow, pretty much the same.
  • 24 August 2005 diff Well, here's the original change! Don't know if you just adopted the style of the anon user before or simply are the same person, but "non-radical Germans" and "only in business settings" (women in business! gasp!) are pretty much giveaways that there's an ax to grind here. See above talk page notices.
Hmm. Seems like it's hardly the case that some revisionist evil version is being reverted to by me.
Anyway. If the discussion was about grammar, you may have had a point. The problem is that nobody disputes that Fräulein still means "unmarried woman." The question is, as you put it, whether it is proper to use it. This is not a question of grammar, this is a question of actual usage and etiquette. And it just isn't true that it's commonly used anymore, and it is also true that it is considered derogatory. You'll note that the article does not say that it is derogatory, merely that it is considered so. You are entirely free to rail against society for buckling to feminism or something, but you have to accept the reality that Fräulein isn't commonly used.
Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Wikipedia reflects reality. If you think people should still use "Fräulein," go tell them! Get on TV! Lobby politicians! Write angry letters to the editor! Just don't edit wishes into Wikipedia and represent them as reality. SnowFire 01:56, 26 September 2006 (UTC)


Well, let´s just leave it at that. I would think that there would be more pressing cases of actual vandalism on which you could focus your attention.

No, let's not leave it at the incorrect version. Inserting errors of fact is worse than standard vandalism. At least graffiti and nonsense can be ignored when read. SnowFire 17:54, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok Snow Fire, this is the bottom line. I reverted the article to the March, 2005 version. At least this version mentions the reality that certain elderly and socially conservative speakers still use the term. It still however conforms to your slanted views on the subject, so all is well.


I can accept that, at least for the time being.

[edit] To the anon IP users.

Hopefully you are not the same as the user above, who seemed to make some peace with the version I made before.

The phrase "Today, the expression is considered derogatory by left-wing feminists, but mainstream Germans recognize that the proper way..." is so obviously POV that it doesn't pass the laugh test. Please read WP:NPOV. More to the point, unless all the actual Germans I know along with friends who have taken German and their German professors and a random book I checked at the bookstore are all insane, it's also false. Maybe, maybe, maybe, fräulein is actually used casually more than is thought, and it's merely censored in the press and in writings abroad. I wouldn't know, as I'm not German. That said, you need to make a case for that and reference it. It shouldn't be THAT hard... if it's really true.

Anyway. Even if you can't show that, if you are still dead-set about introducing support for Fräulein, then why not research general word shifts? Make a section called "Support for Fräulein usage." Reference it. Then, you can talk all you like about that movement, which would be encyclopedic. SnowFire 01:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I am a highly successful business woman who had lived and worked in Germany until last year. To say that the expression is not used is completely inappropriate. I am unmarried and I am not ashamed of this and do not feel the need to hide it from the world. If anyone, subordinate or superior, addressed me as Fräu, I would politely inform them that I am not a femminist and that it is inappropriate to refer to ANY unmarried woman as Fräu. If it were to happen a second time (which it rarely did) I would take further action against the employee since this action is highly disrespectful; human resources ALWAYS sided with me BTW. From reading the discussion pages as well as your countless edits, it is obvious that this is not what your would like to hear...you would rather hear that it angers women and bla bla bla, but it is a reality that you must accept. Not every woman is a femminist.

That's very touching. As it happens, I don't care what the usage is, believe it or not. I am not the POV crusader on this issue. I do care, however, about truth. Every reliable source I've seen- and I'm friends with some reasonably fluent German speakers- say that usage of fräulein is greatly frowned upon by society. Blame it on over-touchiness after World War II, perhaps. Anecdotes are nice, but do you have any sources? You'll note that my version has two Google links that took about 10 seconds to find that confirm what my sources have said.
2. The formal use of Fräulein to translate "Miss" is outdated and should be avoided, not least because the literal translation of Fräulein is "little woman"! You should instead use Frau. (Source: http://www.exeter.ac.uk/german/abinitio/chap1-4.html )
Note that in German all women are addressed as Frau (the equivalent of both Mrs and Ms) in formal and business letters.
...the person's basic title Herrn, Frau, Fräulein (use Fräulein only when writing to young girls). (Source: http://www.askoxford.com/languages/de/german_letters/?view=uk )
Fräu|lein (abbrev. Frl.) is a German title like Herr or Frau. Usage: "Guten Morgen, Fräulein Müller!" It was used up to around 1980 to address unmarried women, today it's discouraged because it is a diminutive form of Frau and feminists argued that men don't have to disclose their marital status in their title, so why should women?
Today, Fräulein is used to address little girls, sternly or quipping. A young woman addressed in this way might react offended, a grown woman doubly so. (Source: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1088238 )
Heck, I found another source there with another minute of searching. This was not hard. I found 0 sources indicating that Fräulein was acceptable. If you persist, I will bring in proper texts on learning German next.
Assuming your story is in fact true, anecdotes do not make a society. It is misleading and dangerous to let native English speakers think that this usage is fine if society does not, even if you think it's fine. To reiterate, I am not here to fight a battle over whether fräulein should be used; I don't care. The issue is a question of fact: is fräulein frowned upon by German society? SnowFire 01:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

____________________________________________________________________________ These "sources" that you cite also place a period after the word "Miss". Hardly a reliable source of neither grammar or etiquette. By the way, my story is not one of the "anecdotes" as you so eloquently put it. Have you ever lived in a German speaking country? It seems from your user page that you have recently edited such articles as "Black Box" and "Magic", hardly evident of any sort of expertise in the German language. Please, check your references and please end it. I have seen your arrogance with respect to the previous editors. It appears that if the article is not written to conform to your point of view, it is incorrect. As someone who has lived in Germany, I can tell you that your version of "reality" is incorrect. I would ask you to please refrain from inserting your personal opinions into the semantics of the beautiful German language. Also, I seldom if ever base my opinions on "Google" when writing articles, as it is easy to find information that is incorrect. It is obvious that you are unaware of how to handle scholarly sources. Finally, what does World War II have to do with this? The use of the term has nothing to do with the Second World War. I have many family members who died as a result of this war, and I do not appreciate your using the war to advance your own particular opinions on the subject. Respectfully yours, Fräulein Anne Schmidt.

Deep breaths...
I will resist the temptation to explain in detail how 90% of your post is utterly irrelevant to anything and willfully misinterprets my above comments. I will only say that Wikipedia has a policy of "No personal attacks" (please read WP:NPA). This is the only thing preventing me from firing back, but you are supposed to address people's arguments, something that your post has failed to do.
You ask me to check my references. I have. So have the many editors above who tried to maintain the article before me. They all say you're wrong. You say they're inaccurate. Fine- it's possible! If you are correct, then you should easily be able to source and reference your claims. You'll note that I mention my friends above, but I don't cite them in the article; they, like you, can only offer anecdotes. Anecdotes are frequently wrong even if well-intentioned; even during a depression, there are a few people who strike it rich and will honestly think that everything's going fine. Put your thoughts to the test and try and reference them. Otherwise (since you brought it up), you'll be like those people who swear up and down that they have magical powers, but can never be bothered to actually, you know, test 'em out and have them verified by reliable sources. The test of Wikipedia is verifiability (see WP:V), which your story does not currently have. SnowFire 13:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)


I lived and worked in Germany for 10 years and was the CEO of a large corporation. I know how people are addressed and how I insisted on being addressed. Believe it or not, 99% of women were NOT offended by my use of the term. The only women who were were the few "over the hill" old maids (I wonder why they never married!!!) for whom the 1970s was apparently the highlight of their lives. I do not understand the difficulty in this: Frau is only used for MARRIED women (and naturally the few single women who are embarassed by the fact that they never married). As if being married made one complete and not being married was something to be hidden. That is a real progressive idea for women! Fraulein is used for SINGLE women. Just like in the US, not every woman uses Ms. (another feminist invention not supported by mainstream women. Are you aware that nobody has written articles for "Mademoiselle", Signorina, Senorita, and Senhorita (they all re-direct to Miss). I wonder what you would have to say about those terms....Let me guess, they are NEVER used? Women are offended by them? Please give it a rest, 99% of women have much more important things in life to worry about; most of them are non-radicals and prefer the traditional usage. Finally, I sincerely hope you are aware that one does not place a period after "Miss" as it is not an abbreviation of anything. Apparently, those highly reliable, scholarly sources that you found on Google are not aware of this. Therefore, please pass the word that it is "Miss", not "Miss.". Finally, please explain to me how my previous post was irrelevant.


You want to know? I suppose... fine. This may take a bit, though, as it requires understanding how Wikipedia works.

Welcome to Wikipedia. To prevent chaos, there are some guidelines to prevent sheer chaos in editing. On the "frontiers" (little-edited and newer articles), they tend to be more loosely applied, but on important or contentious topics, they become absolutely necessary. One of the most important guidelines is verifiability. Basically, Wikipedia articles should ideally be well-sourced. If an investigator sat down with a Wikipedia article (and people entirely do this), they could look up all the referenced sources and find where the article got its information and the source of each claim. Look at, say, Scotland in the High Middle Ages or Sino-German cooperation (1911-1941) for example- they are featured articles, and have tons of references (80+ for the Scotland article, with a full bibliography!). As an article improves, sources are more and more required for claims. That's not to say that the current version of an article can't be changed or improved, but if you want to introduce something seriously at odds with a sourced part of the article, you need to come providing your own source. This is summed up in the following statement:

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.

This is at Wikipedia:Verifiability that I suggested you read before, the guideline that mentioned "Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed." It's so important that I'll say it again:

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth.

It doesn't matter that you know with 100% certainty some fact. It may be true, but until outside sources write about it and confirm it, it is not appropriate for Wikipedia. If the current consensus of published scientists/writers/journalists/critics/etc. is one way, then Wikipedia will mirror them, even if it turns out that they were incorrect later. Is some startling new discovery a user claims psuedoscience or a genuine breakthrough? As far as Wikipedia is concerned, it doesn't matter. If it turns out to be genuine, Wikipedia will wait for the confirmation.

If you are not okay with this, then I humbly suggest that Wikipedia is not the place for you.

So. Getting back to the point- why are your previous posts mostly irrelevant? The reason is that talk is cheap. Disputed changes need to be backed by verifiable sources. I could go down to an Internet cafe and post here anonymously that Fraeulein is actually "locomotive" in German. It doesn't matter. Others would reference actual German dictionaries to show why I'm wrong, and until I can offer a reputable source that my locomotive theory is correct, it doesn't go in the article. More seriously, another poster here could claim to be a sociologist who's conducted a study of a hundred companies and found attitudes like yours. It wouldn't matter. Talk is cheap, and there's no way to tell that they're telling the truth about this study or even themselves. Of course... if that poster really was a sociologist, he or she would have no problem providing sources, as they could easily reference the journals they read and published in, references in the news media, etc.

Lastly. I said this before, but it apparently did not penetrate. I am not some crazed feminist crusader. If I was, I'd be making your changes in reverse to the Miss article- "All right-thinking English speakers have since abandoned Miss for the more appropriate Ms." or whatever, never mind that that is demonstratably false (Speaking of which, aside- while abbreviating Miss. is not exactly a devastating mistake, I checked both websites, and the period was due to the end of a sentence, not an error. Nice try.). I stumbled on this article quite by accident. However, it is my good-faith understanding that German society frowns upon the usage of Fraeulein, an understanding that has been confirmed by multiple sources. I have made no comment in the article nor on the talk page about whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, merely that it is true.

If you believe that German society is actually accepting of Fraeulein and its shunning has been blown out of proportion... prove your case. Not with stories and ancedotes, but verifiable sources- newspapers, scholarly articles, style guides, books, whatever. If you can show yourself correct from those, then you are more than welcome to change the article. SnowFire 21:10, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, take a look at this link: http://www.answers.com/topic/fr-ulein

Answers.com quotes the American Heritage Dictionary and states that Fraulein is: 1) Used as a courtesy title in a German-speaking area before the name of an unmarried woman or girl. 2) Used as a form of polite address for a girl or young woman in a

You will note that the American Heritage Dicionary does not describe the term as outdated or controversial in any way. You will also note that answers.com chose MY version of the wikipedia article to cite on their website.

Well, answers.com was quoting the American Heritage Dictionary. It is generally not appropriate for a dictionary to comment on usage. Colored, for instance, is not polite to use when referring to black people in the United States, but a dictionary will properly record the meaning none-the-less ( http://www.answers.com/topic/colored ) . Secondly, answers.com is a mirror of Wikipedia. There is no editorial step where content is "chosen"; it mirrors all content on a given date. You have only proved that your version was active when Wikipedia did a backup suitable for forking. SnowFire 05:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Wow... may I chime in? Because... I quote the Duden (which is the ultimate supreme source for all things German) from 1983: "Fräulein (...) 2a) (veraltend) titelähnliche, auch als Anrede verwendete (heute weitgehend von "Frau" ersetzte) Bez. für eine unverheiratete weibliche Person" - "Fräulein (...) 2a) (obsolescent) title-like term that is also used as an adress (today mostly replaced by "Frau") for an unmarried female person"; now add 23 years to that, and Fräulein is fast approaching "obsolete" instead of "obsolescent". Baranxtu 12:53, 30 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me add from the position of a person who's lived in Austria for two decades that NOONE uses "Fräulein" today any longer. I mean literally noone. —Nightstallion (?) 20:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so any approach to the article that does not conform to your modernist perspective is vandalism, despite the extent to which it reflects the reality of the German language? Your ignorance is only surpassed by your arrogance.
You were the one who stopped talking. The way to solve disputes on Wikipedia is through discussion, something I have always been open to- you have preferred to revert instead. At first, sure, it's a content/NPOV dispute. Even once a content dispute continues along the path of repeated reverts without bothering to even attempt to discuss things- especially when these reverts remove material that is well backed-up, as you'll note from comments above- it's still not necessarily vandalism, although it is extremely bad etiquette. The real kicker is that you're doing this from AOL's anonymous IPs while not logged in. If you were doing it from a registered account, then worst comes to worst, we could start one of WP's various dispute resolution processes. But no. You're hiding behind anonimity where the only thing we can do is semi-protect the page. When things sink that far, then it becomes vandalism, yes.
As for "modernist" perspective, for the third and last time: no, my perspective is called "reality." Convince me that the reality is otherwise, and I'll change my mind. SnowFire 01:18, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Fine, if the use of AOL causes me to be labeled a vandal, I will register.


[edit] Latest Revision

Here is a version that both sides should be able to live with. While it does not imply, as did the other versions, that the term is never used, it also is not as anti-feminist as some previous versions. Any thoughts? (UTC)
I personally think your revision is the best that I have seen thus far. It presents an OBJECTIVE description of the term, the only sort of description that is appropriate for an encyclopedia. However, judging from the previous comments, you should have known that a revert was inevitable. I will do my best to keep an eye on the article, but it may be an exercise in futility. I am all but certain that one of the "administrators" will keep reverting and refuse to explain the reverts on the discussion page. Then, once they see that someone is challenging their opinions, they will either block the user or protect the page. Frankly, I am surprised that your version lasted as long as it did. Anyway, good job and thank you for your articulate and professional contribution. J. Martinez. 201.79.62.12 17:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I changed the wording around a bit to bring it in line with the discussions of usage here. Dalassa 06:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I've changed it around a bit; trust me, I've lived in Austria since my birth and I have not *once* heard anyone addressed as "Fräulein". It can occasionally be heard in older movies, but that's about it. —Nightstallion (?) 23:04, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] And again...

Dear anonymous revert warrior,

I really detest doing that. Revert wars are unproductive and unwiki. However, the matter has been discussed quite extensively, and there seems to be a sort of consensus that your position is more in agreement with wishful thinking than with reality. If you want to have your views represented in the article, you will have to convince others of their merits. Vandalising userpages and simply reverting Fräulein again and again is not likely to achieve that.

As for the content question, I have lived in Germany all my life and been in contact with people from every imaginable social background; the only person I have ever met who actually used "Fräulein" was a spinster in her seventies who wished to be adressed thusly, and that was in the 1970s, so it's likely that her views were mostly those of the 1920s or such. Now, my experience would qualify as original research and therefore not a valid source; however, I do agree with those who have described the position that you oppose simply as reality. If you want to challenge a widely accepted fact, the burden of proof is upon you. Kosebamse 15:10, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The "term" Fräulein is almost never used in Germany. The only situation it is used is to make fun of a woman. There may be older women who like to be referred to as Fräulein, but I never met one. Most women will feel ridiculed or insulted. Not because of feminism, but because I feel the term is inappropriate for a modern women. Very funny discussion tho. Keep up the good work. --Kleiderseller 18:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Anybody qualified to write on this subject should be able to read de:Fräulein, which correctly describes recent changes in usage. The dispute that is being rehashed here has been settled in Germany for more than a decade. Apart from political or ideological considerations, there is no dispute present-day Germany that Fräulein is at least outdated. Why are we even having this discussion? --ThorstenNY 14:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Some may consider it outdated, possibly. However, it remains used extensively by educated members of German society and those concerned with proper etiquette. Kaiser1877 19:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The dispute clearly remains. It is therefore inappropriate for one of the sides to simply remove the {Disputed} template. Besides, Fräulein is not being used extensively anywhere in German society. If you had any facts to back up your claims, why aren't you or anybody else "correcting" de:Fräulein? --ThorstenNY 07:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with you Kaiser. And to Kleiderseller, just because YOU feel that the term is inappropriate for modern women, the speakers of the German language do not. Piononno 01:41, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

This is not about feelings. It's about reality. Are you a speaker of the German language? I very much doubt that. The german wikipedia is very clear about that topic. "Fräulein" is completely outdated. No question about that. --84.133.24.154 05:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Whatever German speakers may or may not feel, they simply aren't saying (or writing) Fräulein any more. --ThorstenNY 07:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)


Fräulein is used for unmarried women and Frau is used for married women. There is no dispute on that. Just because some people do not like the term Fräulein, we should not pander to them in an encyclopedia article and say that the term is never used.Kaiser1877 14:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
That's the point: The vast majority of Germans do not use Fräulein to address or describe unmarried women. If you bothered to consider the overwhelming empirical evidence as well as de:Fräulein, you shoud see that you just can't win this one. --ThorstenNY 20:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Comment: Comtemporary Usage of Fräulein in German-speaking Countries

I would appreciate other editors' comments on this issue. User:Kaiser1877 and others, please note that a WP:RFC is a formal part of Wikipedia's dispute resolution policy. Please do take part in this process—or refrain from unsubstantiated reverts. Thanks. --ThorstenNY 20:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, the shunning of Fräulein is definitely exaggerated. Some women may not wish to disclose their marital status, but the vast majority of women do not care and prefer the traditional usage. In fact, I lived in Germany up until last year, and my bank statements address me as Fräulein. Piononno 02:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
:I could not agree more. It seems that the above user feels we should treat de:Fräulein as the fifth gospel for some odd reason. Just because an article is written in another language, it is not necessarily true. What is this empirical evidence that he speaks of? So far, that particular user has offered no evidence, excpect for his nearly constant references to de:Fräulein. Kaiser1877 03:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what agenda you are pushing, but every German knows you are not telling the truth.--84.133.24.154 05:01, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


:I could also go under an anonymous IP and post that other users are liars, but I would not expect anyone to take me seriously. Kaiser1877 19:34, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I have listed Kaiser1877 and Piononno as suspected sock puppets here. I think the sock puppetry used to simulate support in this discussion is beyond obvious and I'm striking the comments of Kaiser1877 to signify that. Darkspots 21:52, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
This matter has gone on long enough. To summarize all the above discussion, on the one hand there are a number of established Wikipedia editors who have argued, out of personal knowledge and verifiable sources, that the term "Fräulein" is mostly if not entirely obsolete. A partial list:

On the other hand there is a single human being, who can be identified as User:Kaiser1877, and the variety of IP addresses and socks that he or she has used over time to edit this article. This person has a distinctive style that can be seen through all the edits, particularly an insistence that "educated" speakers of German use "Fräulein" to address all unmarried women. Often this user refers to second-wave feminism as the force attempting to stamp out the use of "Fräulein". This page has been protected a number of times because of this user, and he or she has been reverted at least fifty times. Editors have tried at length to explain the nature of Wikipedia and the difference between baseless assertions and verifiable facts.

This person has repeatedly changed what the sources that SnowFire added to the article say. One example out of many: [1].

I think this kind of misrepresentation clearly shows an editor who is trying to undercut the nature of Wikipedia--an encyclopedia based on reliable secondary sources--who is willing to try a variety of dishonest tactics, including sockpuppetry, to distort the factual nature of this article. I think that any further edits to this article recognized as being made by this user can be reverted as vandalism and accounts blocked if vandalism persists. Unless any established editor disagrees with this, I think this is how we should proceed. Darkspots 22:23, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
First of all, I am not a sock of any other user.

I made the above edits n good faith because I have lived in Germanfor the past 25 years. I think that you are guily of the POV pushing, not me. This dispute has been going on for over 2 years, surely you do not believe that this has all been the work of one editor?

If what you are saying is true, then source it with good references. Your experiences don't count. SnowFire 15:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I would think that as an experienced user, you or somebody else would help be re-write the article properly. However, it seems much easier to just write my edits off as vandalism since everyone seems to like the nice progressive, politically correct version of the article that exists now. Piononno 02:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't care less about the political implications. If you think that the current article is wrong and the sources dug up by myself and others are wrong, then prove it, or at least prove that a controversy exists. Sources, please, not rhetoric. SnowFire 02:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Like I said, maybe you could point me in the right direction because you ae an experienced editor. Piononno 03:43, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I found nothing with a google search that really backs you up. I found a NYT article about Austria in the 80s that's maybe a little closer, suggesting that reasonably young unmarried women are called "Fräulein", but it doesn't try to definitively answer the question, just indicates that all women, married or unmarried, are called "Frau" when they reach a certain age. And SnowFire's sources indicate that usage seems to have changed dramatically since then, which is the point a lot of people have made. The article doesn't help you much and contradicts your central point, which is that all unmarried women are called "Fräulein". I'm not trying to set this up as a straw man--I really couldn't find anything better for your side of the story. I think the real answer is that nobody's going to find a reliable source to prove your argument. Darkspots 20:11, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, in general, you need to do research. That means finding books or other sources that would cover the issue. Step 1 is the simple Google test; it's what I did when I noticed the issue and what Darkspots did as well. That said, all the sources I found online said that Fraulein was out of usage (I was not cherry picking links). However, I only searched in English. After that, there's reference material on German usage, in both German and English. This is actually the best source; style guides and grammar books and the like. However, as noted above, the 1983 Duden seems to indicate that Fraulein is out of usage as well. Now, maybe other sources indicate otherwise, but that's the kind of material you'll want. What won't work is a single modern usage of Fraulein; of course some people still use it. You need to find recent guidelines or studies of proper usage of German, from a source of notable stature. SnowFire 20:21, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


This article was found on careerjournal.com (the Wall Street Jorunal Executive Career Site) and instructs foreigners visiting the German speaking parts of Switzerland to address waitresses as Fraulein. It mentions nothing about the term being considered offensive or inappropriate. Please see here: http://www.careerjournal.com/myc/workabroad/countries/switzerland.html Is the Wall Street Journal considered to be of sufficient notable stature? Piononno 20:50, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course. It doesn't support any of your arguments, but by all means the fact that waitresses in Switzerland are addressed as "Fräulein" should be in the article. Just like waiters in France used to be addressed as "Garçon". It's useful--it marks a remaining, conservative usage--the Swiss are noted for being conservative. Darkspots 21:44, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
I was not claiming that this one source alone would be sufficient. However, it is a start and at the very least, it serves to refute the "never used" and "all women find it offensive" theories. Wouldn't you agree? Piononno 21:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)
We're not on opposite sides of the spectrum here in terms of the usage of the word "Fräulein". I want sourced, verifiable facts in the article. You're perfectly happy to change sources to say what you want or ignore them--that's the difference between you and me, not any kind of political difference. Regarding the usage for waitresses, the France section of the same website where you found the Swiss source says "Madame is used for all adult women, married or single, over 18 years of age (except for waitresses, which are addressed as Mademoiselle.)" That's just one example of the phenomenon that exists in many cultures that people who serve food in restaurants get treated with less respect than the general population. Nobody is claiming that they like it, or that those specific uses correspond to the culture at large. I don't wave my hand at my accountant to get her attention, for instance, even though I pay her for her services. Darkspots 22:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it may be true that this is not indicative of the culture as a whole. However, my point was that this source is proof that the above editors who insisited that "the term is NEVER used", the ones that you were so quick to defend, were incorrect. I will work on getting more sources to support my arguments regarding Fräulein, but so far, with very little effort, I was able to prove untrue the whole "Fräulein is never used" argument. I too realize that the term has declined in popularity. Nevertheless, the term is not completely obsolete, as is evident from this article. I found this article on google in less than 3 minutes. Now if the above editors were as open minded and neutral about the subject as they claimed to be, why could they not have found this article? I assume that they already had their minds made up about this Fraulein before engaging in any research. Also, why do you insist that a waitress being referred to as Fräulein or Mademoiselle indicates that they are being treated with less respect? If I, as a woman, choose to be referred to as Miss than I have less respect for myself than if I were to choose Mrs. or Ms.? Piononno 04:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, the source about waitresses shows exactly what it shows and no more. I've rewritten the article to say that Fräulein is used for young girls and waitresses, and is no longer used for unmarried women that do not fall into one of those two categories. I've cut out all the unsourced material about feminists, elderly speakers, etc. It's very clear that, going forward, the section about usage in this article must contain sourced material only. I'm not going to continue to argue with you, because my only opinion about Fräulein is that this should be an article based on verifiable facts. I don't speak a word of German.
For everyone else, Piononno and Kaiser1877 were determined to be sockpuppets of the same user, based on my accusation. Piononno is the account that was not indef blocked. Darkspots 14:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Observation about the use of Fräulein

To whoever edits the page... The usage of Fräulein for a waitress is highly inappropriate. While there may be some regions where this still is acceptable, I highly advise not to use 'Fräulein' in ANY way or context when adressing a woman. FYI: I am german and 'Fräulein' is considered highly offensive. Also it is not used as a title to adress young female children. That is simply false. Except when used as a warning or scolding e.g. by parents! The usage may be overlooked if it is clear that you are a foreigner. But don't count on it. 23:00, September 04, 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.119.225 (talk • contribs) 23:00, 4 September 2007

This point has been made a number of times by people who claim to be German speakers. See Talk:Fräulein#And again... above. If the article is wrong, change it, and refer to sources that everyone has access to. The article has a source claiming that "Fräulein" is used to beckon waitresses. Find better sources that refute the point. Ask me for help if you have sources that you would like to have included in the article. Darkspots 14:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
Fräulein was and maybe is used in some cases when adressing waitresses, but it is not recommended any more. Instead "Hallo" or "Entschuldigung" is used to adress the waitress. If you plan to go too germany the best advice is not to use the term at all. Otherwise you will get your drinks considerably later and your chance of fraternising with some of those young ladies formerly known as fräuleins will be zero. On the other hand if you don't plan to jump over the pond you may as well believe whatever you like. :)
The following is a funny story about that waitress issue. Unfortunately I couldn't find an English translation. So this isn't a source to back up anything in the English wikipedia. Recommended for the german speaking folks tho. [2]--Kleiderseller 01:35, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I feel like this discussion is veering into a general discussion of the term "Fräulein", which isn't the purpose of this talk page. Please see Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines for specific guidelines on this. Without being able to understand German, it seems like this link is to an anecdote--what would move the article forward would be a reliable source that would back up what you folks are saying, not personal experience and illustrative stories. Darkspots 01:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] November 2007

I re-wrote the article to state that Fraulein is used mostly by elderly or conservative speakers. It seems that a user edited the article from the prespective that Fraulein is not used at all. Please see previous versions of the article (from March, 2005 for example) written by more experienced users. ReadyFreddie (talk) 03:20, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
We have gone over this ground a number of times, haven't we? The "perspective" from which I have edited this article is that the article should be based on reliable sources. So, here goes: Please don't remove reliable sources from the article. Please provide sources for your assertions. Please don't engage in sockpuppetry. Thank you. Darkspots (talk) 23:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Followup: I have accused ReadyFreddie of sockpuppetry. See Wikipedia:Suspected sock puppets/Piononno. Darkspots (talk) 02:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


It seems that you were praising the work of user *User:Kosebamseon this very talk page back in July. The version that I reverted to was based on that user's version from March 5, 2005. Please see the history of the article. If you feel that you are more qualified to write about the subject than kosebamse and all of the other editors such as *User:Nightstallion and *User:SnowFire ,et al that is one thing. However, do not accuse me of vandalism for reverting to versions that have been supported by so many other editors. Also, I am not a sock puppet; the difference between my version of the article and that of the other IPS is that I acknowledge that Fraulein has gone out of style and is considered derogatory while the other users insisted that "educated" speakers of German always use the term. Hardly the same thing. Just because more than 1 editor do not like your revisions , they are not necessarily sockpuppets. ReadyFreddie (talk) 02:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The source of my inconsistency: I have no viewpoint about the word "Fräulein". Other users have found new sources. I've helped incorporate them into the article. As reliable, useful sources emerge, what the article says about the word evolves. I have no qualification to write this article, and I've never claimed one. I respect sources at their face value. When you had your User:Piononno hat on and found a source, I put the sucker in the article. The thing is, it's on the WSJ site as an advice-to-travelers help page; it's not a WSJ article. There's a difference there. The Duden article trumps the WSJ advice page, which seems a little stale.

I find your statement about "more than 1 editor" a pretty clear argument for the sockpuppet policy. I'm confident that this case will get decided the same way as the first, despite your defense.

I'm sticking around this article because you have little respect for sources. Here's the diff where you delete all of them: [3]. That, my friend, is an attempt to destroy the careful work of others. Vandalism? That's what folks call it around here. Darkspots (talk) 03:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)


I did not remove the sources to distort the meaning of the article; it was done merely to simplify the article and make it more user friendly. You still did not answer the question that I asked on the sockpuppet case's page. Why did you accuse me of inserting the "little can seem condescending" comment, when it was done by User:SnowFire. ReadyFreddie (talk) 03:33, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it did take me an hour to respond to you on that page. Sorry about the delay. OK, you took a section of an article that met the standard of Wikipedia:Verifiability and replaced it with one that you thought was "simpler" and more "user-friendly". Wikipedia is based on verifiable facts, not statements that are unverifiable but sound better. Please read the policy article on the subject, and then revert yourself the the version that has all the sources. From then on, only add things to the article that you have Wikipedia:Reliable Sources to back up. Thanks! Darkspots 14:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
I reverted the article to the March, 2005 version. It seems that this is the version that was written before all of this conflict started about the current usage. ReadyFreddie 01:26, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I think I finally put together the evidence to conclusively prove that ReadyFreddie is the same user as Piononno: [4]. A bit involved, but I'm putting this chapter of the Fräulein Vandal to bed, and restoring the current version of the article. Darkspots 06:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fräulein

I don't get the attention by sock puppeteers and others and I don't understand why this German noun is on English Wikipedia. I am a German. When I was a kid, we used to use the term for young, unwed ladies or girls. Crusty old Gymnasium teachers may still use it because that is what they grew up with. Whoever struggles with that won't, when he or she gets older and clings to some older terminology. As early as the nineties, Germans pretty much dropped the term for the reasosn stated here. I don't see why any English speaking people would argue about that. The Duden reference is correct and everything else is nonsense. --Achim 06:44, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I very much agree with you. The article as it is right now, is not only incorrect in large parts, but also very confusing. I went to Gymnasium in the early and mid nineties. Nobody called us Fräulein, we would have been very offended by that! Even the formal 'Sie' in the upper classes was refused by the students. I acknowledge that in the schools with longer a history then mine this may/is still be used. The "crusty old Gymnasium teacher" no longer exists, I mean do the math. Most teachers nowadays started their career after 1968 and the social changes that followed this. And who is more believable on german usage the english Oxford Dictionary or the officially recognized german Duden which coincidently tells us the same as the german 'Fräulein' article does? Strangely enough, i have seen people tinkering with that article as well. Political agenda, anyone? --77.6.96.23 (talk) 04:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Ich verstehe nur nicht zu welchem Zweck der Artikel überhaupt hier ist und warum sich Ausländer darüber streiten. Gibt es nicht wichtigere Themen? Was soll diese geistige Selbstbefriedigung hier? --Achim (talk) 02:43, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't particularly get the point either, but as long as we're going to have a page here at the English WP, it might as well be sourced and reasonably accurate. I think that the primary problem with the OED reference is not that the dictionary itself is particularly wrong (although it is perhaps a touch outdated), but that the Wikipedia article is using the reference to justify statements far beyond what the source says. I'll cut the speculation about gymnasium students out. Darkspots (talk) 16:38, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
As a followup to the original question of the thread, I would point out that English is an incredibly acquisitive language. "Fräulein" is in dictionaries of English, even shorter ones, and I would imagine that the term is understood by most speakers of English. It was used in a lot of movies like The Sound of Music, after the war--a lot of American soldiers did a tour in Germany throughout the Cold War, and their experiences became part of American popular culture as well. Darkspots (talk) 16:53, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Just a random comment on the waitress issue: For whatever reason -- perhaps that waitresses are the closest thing to servants the average American has contact with anymore -- it is not uncommon for them to be spoken to in terms which would be considered demeaning if used to address someone else, such as the accountant mentioned above. The average person would not say to their accountant "Honey, could you go over the section about amortization one more time?" but they would think nothing of saying "Honey, could you get me another cup of coffee?" to a waitress. I don't presume to offer more than a wild guess as to the reason, but it happens entirely too often to be ignored. And, for whatever reason, it seems to be limited to waitresses. I don't hear the cashiers at my grocery store or the floor staff at a big discount store being addressed that way, but it is rare for me to dine at a restaurant without hearing some expression of the kind. In a discussion elsewhere (just random chatter on some forum or blog comments, so I doubt if I can find it again) a man (self-identified) said he spoke that way "to be friendly", which might point to people feeling a closer and less formal connection with the woman giving them food (a wife/mother symbol?), too. Who knows? That's for sociologists to figure out. My only point here is that this form of addressing waitresses seems to remain in use in the US, and it's possible that is also the case elsewhere in the world.

Also, I replaced the phrase "politically correct", as that has become a very loaded term (all too often meaning "anything I disagree with") and seems, to me at least, to be injecting POV. I have no dog in this fight -- I was just looking up the spelling! -- so I think it's fair to say if that phrase looks POV to me, it probably will to others. Worldwalker (talk) 04:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

In a bizarre coincidence, I made the same point about people who serve food versus accountants above: [5]. Regarding how waitresses are addressed, we have two sources that say different things, so the article (currently) presents both points of view. Darkspots (talk) 04:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Not a coincidence. I deliberately echoed your use of accountants to continue what I thought was a very appropriate example. I'm a sucker for reading talk pages, even for articles I have just a passing interest in. I think it's the same thing that makes me always buy the deluxe edition of movie DVDs, the one with the "making of" documentaries: I'm fascinated by how things were built. So, yeah, I read all the wikidrama (and your accountants) before I posted that. Worldwalker (talk) 19:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Of course, how silly of me. Happy New Year! Darkspots (talk) 19:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Video game reference

I think the fact a video game character uses the term Fräulein to be much less culturally notable than the other items in the culture section. Demonstration that third-party sources mention the video game's use of the term would affect my thoughts on the matter, depending on the importance of the sources. Darkspots (talk) 17:01, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand the sentence
In the game Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney the main prosecutor Klavier Gavin refers to almost every woman he meets as Fräulein[but the game director admitted that he meant "slut" by it, referring to Eva Brau's nickname by Hitler].
at all. Who is the "game director"? In what sense was Eva Braun (Hitler's long time girlfriend, and eventually his wife) a "slut"? I think this term refers to promiscuity, not to involvement with Nazis?
--Austrian (talk) 21:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I think the "slut" business was put in by an IP vandal with this edit. I reverted that. So we're back to the version that has the video game reference but nothing about Eva Braun. I still think the video-game mention is unreferenced and should be removed, but I'd like someone else to do it to demonstrate consensus. Darkspots (talk) 22:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree. I have removed it. --Austrian (talk) 22:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)