Talk:Fourth Mansions

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[edit] The Meaning of the Novel

In Interior Castle the castle is a metaphor for a soul (hence the word "interior" in the title, I suppose). The different rooms or "mansions" are different states of the soul. In the middle of the castle the soul would be in the purest possible state, which equals Heaven. The whole thing is a metaphor for the soul's journey towards Heaven, which journey isn't linear, and may involve going through the same rooms or states many times.

My question is, on what basis is Lafferty's Fourth Mansions about what this Wikipedia article claims it to be? My take would be, though I haven't read the book in a while, that Foley represents the everyman (or woman) in a journey towards Heaven, and the four types of creatures are metaphors for different states of the soul. But of course almost everything in Lafferty is more than just metaphor: it's multi-dimensional multi-functional symbol. 88.148.149.48 18:02, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

No, Foley is a representative of humanity. Remember, it's a historical view of humanity: he mentions the French revolution and a bunch of other examples. (This is more obvious if you read his more historical novels; The Devil is Dead is another novel on the same theme as Fourth Mansions but less accessible - for example, it shares some characters with The Flame is Green.) I don't think it's a soul's journey; for example, how would one become a python and then a toad? It would seem difficult to become a badger then a falcon, or vice versa. --Gwern (contribs) 00:20 12 December 2006 (GMT)
One reason why I'm skeptic about your view is that Lafferty was basically conservative Catholic who knew much about his religion and was devout; and in Catholicism the focus is unquestionably on an individual's striving towards Heaven: not everybody will ever get there. In this light, I find it difficult to accept the view that Lafferty is writing about the whole humanity's getting into Heaven. A related point: if he were, then the relationship between Fourth Mansions and Interior Castle would be pretty much non-existent, which I don't think Lafferty meant it to be (with all those quotations from the book that Lafferty uses as chapter headings).
Supposing, however, that you are correct, what would the four types of creature stand for? They're obviously metaphors for something... The Devil is Dead I've just been re-reading. In it Lafferty gives pretty good hints of what the novel is about: the ship Brunhilde contaminates every place it visits, Finnegan has been lazily part of it all and should have opened his eyes earlier, Seaworthy's 'corpse dream' Lafferty pretty much analyzes for us and pretty much says the book is about the same thing (corpse = corrupting; corpse = guilt; etc.... It's not a simple metaphor, or allegory, but a many-sided symbol, symbolic).
I do think it's a bit simplistic to say or imply that Lafferty has only one major theme and that the form he uses is that of simple allegory. 88.148.149.48 15:48, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
It's true he was definitely conservative Catholic, but that doesn't mean his works are simply going to recast Catholic doctrine in quasi-allegories. As I said, if he meant the four creatures to not be separate races or at least very weird nonhuman things, then why would he have tried to treat them literally? The toads literally live again by stealing bodies; the pythons literally have immense power and engage in weird physical things like gashing each other and commanding people change their forms and changing people into unfledged falcons and so on; the falcons literally take over the world (although Miguel implies he'll give temporal power over the world to Foley if he ascends); and of course the badgers literally have their network, their castles, their familiars and fight the pythons. The upward spiral Lafferty mentions terminates in Heaven, but I don't necessarily believe that Foley, simply by taking on characteristics of the four creatures, will go straight away to Heaven - he will simply lead humanity into a new mansion. --Gwern (contribs) 19:48 12 December 2006 (GMT)
Yeah, Lafferty even tells you he's being literal, doesn't he? He always does that!
Sorry for the bit of sarcasm in the first sentence, but I'm afraid that either you aren't very familiar with Lafferty's work or just don't get it.
I never said that Foley would go to Heaven by taking on characterstics of the four creatures, not at all. And that first paragraph of my first contribution to this discussion: in it I was paraphrasing Teresa of Avila's Interior Castle, not making it up, as you have been doing with this article. 88.148.149.48 20:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
By the way, if you've read The Devil is Dead, you must have noticed these, narrated by the narrator: "Don Lewis and Joe Cross were people who belonged ... with all good people everywhere." The Church. "Harry Scott, Art Emery, and Chris McAbney were people who do not belong, the other sort of people. There are only two sorts of people in the world, and they are these two sorts. Unless you understand this, you belong to the wrong sort, and you can go to Hell with Harry and Art and Chris, and nobody will care; you belong in Hell." What would you make of that? Is it somehow ironic? Lafferty is sometimes ironic, of course, but it's difficult to see his irony here, if it is here.
More: "There was another girl on ship. She was one of those who are very hard to place among the two kinds of people in the world. Oh, she carried a latch-key to Hell, there was no doubt about it. But before she went she would be the pleasant companion of princes. For a while she was both kinds of people." 88.148.149.48 20:51, 12 December 2006 (UTC)