Talk:Four square

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[edit] Please create Child Articles about your club, team, school, rules, etc.!

This must remain intact as an article about the sport of four square. If users flood this existing article with more localized rules, names, teams, clubs, etc, etc, then it becomes unreadable and it will be difficult for anyone to learn about the sport itself. So many people are contributing new content, and everyone wants to publicize their own flavor of four square, the appropriate way to do this is to start your own child wiki page and then link from the main Four Square parent article. You can start this by creating a wikipedia account and reading a little of the manual: [[1]]

seaneffel 02 Oct 2006


Again, start your own article. Just removed Raljoball and made it into its own wiki article because it doesn't have anything to do with four square. --Sean Effel (talk) 00:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I suspect the Raljoball editors added it to this article because the Raljoball article was previously deleted (here). Wikipedia is not for things they made up, and hopefully one day they'll learn that. Somno (talk) 01:12, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] All those special rules lost...

Its a darned shame that those 300 special rules and tricks were utterly deleted from the branch article (Individual Server Rules). That was probably the best compilation of rules that the world ever had at its fingertips. If anyone knows how to undelete or pull from an archive, I would love to get my hands on them and post them in a more appropriate place. I understand and respect the academic approach to wikipedia but there has to be some concession made for contributing new content that isn't documented anywhere (such as all the playground variants of four square from all over the world.) Anyone have any ideas? Contact my user account, or post the recovered article there so I can retrieve. --Sean Effel 18:55, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] International Variants

The article becomes very confusing given all the variants across the world. It seems to me like we should have a section of extremely basic rules (the Variants section can stay the same) for each country so that each section doesn't have the inevitable "except in Zimbabwe where the game is played on jet skis with a baby hippopotamus". That way people unfamiliar with the game could actually get some idea how to play 4-Square in all its basic variations without all the international bickering about ball size and where the squares should go. That's just my two cents worth. 4SquareCommish 11:00, May 24th, 2006

I took a stab at reorganizing this entry by separating the basic game play from the custom or regional information. I hope this is more clear and sets a precident for other posters. seaneffel 11 July 2006
In particular, I think you made a genius move to put all the custom service rules on an entirely seperate page. I think the whole thing reads a lot more clearly now. Very nicely done! 4SquareCommish July 29th, 2006
I only folded the special rules into one section, someone else had the initiative to move them to a separate page. It was genius, but i can't take credit for it. seaneffel 31 July 2006
I had to add a local favorite variant Side Game to the list with "Tea Party." Some adults were teaching some of our kids last night and this was one we here in the Midwest used to do back in the day. I hope no one minds the addition. FilWasHere 6 August 2006

[edit] Hitting into your own square vs. hitting into opponent's square

Concerning the manner of passing the ball to an opponent's square, the article states that "the server hits the ball into his own square at an angle so on the second bounce it hits any adjacent square. The receiving player hits the ball into his own square and then play continues like this..." I have played the game (and seen it played) in several Midwestern US states (and West Virginia) and have never seen it played this way. The server bounces the ball once into his or her own square before hitting it directly into another player's square. The receiving player then hits it directly into another square, and so forth. To hit the ball into your own square is to commit a "self," and the player who "selfed" is out. I wonder the nationality or region of the person who wrote the aforementioned section, and whether there are regional patterns concerning this rule that can be drawn out and mentioned in the article. Rohirok 19:40, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

It's played by hitting the ball into your own square first in England Greg321 10:39, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, the article states that the game is most popular in the US, and I have also never seen this variant. zellin 23:10, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it *is* more popular in the US than elsewhere. Does anyone have any proof of this? I only know that it is highly popular in this part of Australia, and that at least from about 15 to 5 years ago around here a basketball was far more commonly used than a tennis ball :-) matturn 04:36, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, in my part of Victoria (Australia), the only thing we use is a tennis ball (any attempts using a bigger ball results in utter chaos). On paper, the whole "hit the ball into another person's square on the full" thing seems sort of odd to me. It sounds like playing tennis without a net, I mean, what's stopping you from just smashing the ball into someone else's square? shiwasu 02:10, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

We used to play this a lot in Newfoundland -- we called it "squareball". We used to draw it in chalk on the road. As I recall, you bounced it on the serve, then hit it -- the idea being that the ball must bounce once in your square before you struck it, and the initial drop for the serve was not considered a strike. The serve was always from the outside corner of square 4: there was a "crease" drawn where the server had to stand. There was also a small diamond (45-degree-tilted square) drawn at the common point of the 4 squares. You were out if you touched it in any way it before it bounced in your square (including catching it or being hit by it), or, if after it bounced in your square, you failed to successfully hit it into another square (e.g. if it went out of bounds, or hit ANY line except the server's crease, or hit anywhere in the centre diamond). I figured this would have been the way it was played back in the UK, since our insular isolation (Canada didn't join us till '49) meant that our cultural hand-me-downs were usually closer to the British source than that of the rest of the Great White North. But in this case we seem closer to the Major League Squarefour than Association Foursquare. SigPig 02:28, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Basketball and volleyball wikification

Note: basketball and volleyball are not wikified because the articles refer to the sport, while this article refers only to the type of ball.

This seems pretty pedantic. Presumably, most people will know what a basketball or volleyball is, but in cases where they don't, wouldn't a wiki link to those articles be helpful? Sure, the articles would be about the sports, but the person following the wiki link would most likely figure out that the name of the sport is the same as the name of the ball used in it. Rohirok 19:08, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How do you play?

This article doesn't actually tell us how to play. It just describes the ball and the court, and then goes on to say "A round is played until..." 66.92.237.111 02:30, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Echo that. --Phil | Talk 12:05, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
The person in the highest position serves the ball into one of the other squares, and the person recieving the serve must volley the ball just as in normal gameplay. Yah, this article could really use some work.--Littleolive2 02:39, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I really don't understand the rules to this game. Someone please describe it better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.64.217.18 (talk) 16:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of "not known that you can add many more players"

This change was for a good reason if the user was accurate in saying that "it is common for the game to extend beyond 4 squares, to 6 more." But this nameless user added nothing to discuss this variant. If he or someone else can, fantastic. Otherwise, soon I'm going to replace the removed message with something like

"Australian attempts to change the game drastically by adding more players participating in a round are rumoured to have met with success. Successfully changing the shape of the court or its parts (such as "four triangle" or "five circle") remains mind-bogglingly difficult." Arlewis 17:53, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] It's not actually like this

In New Zealand (at least) we play a quite similar, but different, game called 'handball'. You use a tennis ball and there can be as many squares as possible. Also the terms are different. Perhaps I should add a section to this page explaining how it's done downunder :)

Being from Australia, I agree. Perhaps even a seperate article could be of worthiness? --Rilstix 12:30, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
In Cincinnati, Ohio, US, we played a game like this with many squares (about 10 squares of concrete slabs) using a tennis ball. A wall on one side was considered in play. The game was fast-paced, but also prone to cronyism, as players of a certain class teamed up with each other to get the top squares, making it very difficult for other factions who did not own the service square. Each player was allowed 2 bounces and 2 hits to pass the ball to another square. They could also leave their squares in pursuit of the ball, and even block an opponent from reaching the ball that they had just passed into the opponent's square. "Babies" and difficult to reach sideways hits ("smacks") were allowed, though the ball could not be passed to another square with an overhand hit. I do not recall what we called the game, though we certainly did not call it four square. I believe a separate page for this game is justified if enough unique material on it can be gathered. However, if the only information on it is that it is played like four square, except with a tennis ball and any number of squares, a separate stub seems superfluous. Rohirok 19:28, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of bias in NZ variant

The tennis-ball variant originally said that it was "more skillful and more enjoyable", and I removed that because it was clearly a non-neutral statement, and chopped it down to just "faster play". -- revme

"This is also occasionally seen in New Zealand." Not true. It's *always* seen in New Zealand. I'm yet to see it played without a tennis ball. I'm going to change this to: "This is also the case in New Zealand."

I'm an Australian, and being bored teenagers, this is generally what we do in our lunchtimes. We have squares actually made for the game by the school so there isn't any need to chalk any squares.

Anyway, basically, I've been playing since I was about seven and I have very rarely seen people play with anything other than a tennis balls in Australia, but in the US most people play with basketballs. To make a comprehensive article on this is very hard, as there are so many international variants, not to mention at least a few house rules for every single group of players.

Back to the tennis ball matter, it is faster and more enjoyable to me, but the difficulty is increased.

[edit] Kingpin

The rules of Kingpin as they were given were confusingly inconsistent:

In this version the squares are ranked King, Queen, Jack and Dunce (in some variants Dunce is replaced with 'baby'). The player in square 4 (King) moves to square 1 (Dunce) when they are out (see above), with the players in square 1 and 2 (Dunce and Jack) moving up into squares 3 and 4 (King and Queen). The players in squares 3, 2 and 1 (Queen, Jack and Dunce) all move to square 1 (Dunce) when they are out, while players in lower numbered squares than the eliminated player progress to higher squares. Only when the player in square 1 is out does another player enter the game.

This doesn't suggest what happens to the player in square 3 when the player in square 4 is out, nor who moves into square 2. Further, the player in square 1 going out is given two different treatments. I've rewritten it according to what I believe is the intent. However, I'm not actually familiar with the variant, so could someone check that it's now right? 4pq1injbok 05:55, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bard College

It's silly to continually add "(most notably Bard College, where players gather every Wednesday from 10pm-1am, often sober)" when the Four Square club at Bard College has a perfectly serviceable web address.Wisygig 07:12, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

I have added a history section, referencing Urbana Illinois USA in the late 1960's as a possible (but imho possibly just a rumor) origin of this game. The intellectual variants (round-the-world, calling a category of information, etc.) suggests it was invented or greatly modified at a school. I played this game all throughout the 1970's on Pell Circle in Urbana. Please don't just delete this reference - find a better reference, or leave it as is until we find an earlier reference to the game's invention, to trace down the origin of this game. Thanx. User:SystemBuilder, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

If you can find a link to somewhere this is documented, that'd be great. Otherwise, I'm afraid it looks to be original research. Wisygig 05:35, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm curious to know more of the history of Four Square. Having set up a court at Burning Man the last two years (2006 and 2007), my camp has noticed a couple of interesting things. One, people over the age of 35 who grew up east of Ohio have never heard of the game and had no idea how to play. But, people under the age of 35 who grew up on the East coast were very familiar with the game. Everyone who grew up on the west coast was familiar with the game. We had a group of Austrians, and they were unfamiliar with Four Square. The rules seemed to vary with every new person who would join the game. Does anyone have any idea how or when this game was started? Evanstruth 11:08, 4 Septmeber 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Severe vanity problems in article

I have removed many of the references to individual players and their created moves, as this violates the Wikipedia guidelines for vanity (Wikipedia:Vanity guidelines). I have also deleted info that was admittely unrelated to Four Square (if it is irrelevant it needs its own article.) Created moves that are admittedly "very difficult to pull off", "hard to master", etc. and/or at least some of these comments have been removed as well. Finally, it would be impossible for every schoolyard variation to be listed on this article, so please try to limit the specific moves to the most commonly known ones. --Goldrushcavi 17:15, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Aussie Rules

I've noticed that the page says that if a player is at fault, they go out and everyone moves up, then the first in line out of court goes in. I've played this game many times with people from schools all over Victoria, Australia and the general rule is that if you are out, you move to Dunce, whether you are King, Queen or Jack. It is only if you go out once in Dunce that you leave the court, and the next person comes in.

I have also never seen the game played with anything other than a tennis ball, and games even not starting through lack of a tennis ball, despite other sized balls being available.

A few variants which I have noticed to be the norm in Victoria: -Re-do is called replay, and called by the King alone if a decision is too close to call. It is the expected norm, rather than being a rule chosen at the start.

-Liner: If the ball bounces clearly on a line, the Queen can call Liner. The ball is given to Queen, who can serve it as a King would. A King can override the decision with a Replay call. While a liner seems to be a given, the way in which the Queen serves can be decided before the match, as it could be a normal serve, or one which bounces from the centre before being hit.

-"Didn't like it": A player can grab the ball directly after a serve and say "Didn't like it", and return it to the King to be served. The amount of times a player can do this per round can be decided before the game, and they MUST play the ball once they have used up their "Didn't like it"'s. At my school (I'm still 13) we call them propers

GP

At the schools I went to, "Didn't like it" was called "Don't Accept". We didn’t have a limit, though (mainly due to the fact that King or “the person in square 4” wouldn’t serve it properly). shiwasu 02:00, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is all true and it is how it is played at my school except for the liner and "didn't like it" parts, which are obviously possible variants. One thing I would like to add, the rules can be changed so that only the king goes to dunce if he is out, but it is straig to the waiting line if anyone else goes out. Another rule is "all star squares" in which anyone who is out goes straight to the line, including the king. Danger Al 07:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Penneshaw Rules: Perhaps this should be on the currently empty talkpage for Four square regional... The small (primary/grade-school age) area school I attended still has many painted foursquare courts, and consistently played to fairly rigid rules which were not shared by the two other schools in the area (which played 'pat' with a tennis ball).
  • Foursquare was played with a basketball.
  • Our squares were named King, Queen, Jack, Dunce.
  • We may touch the ball with bodyparts above the waist, we may not hold the ball.
  • Replay can be suggested by anyone, but the decision falls to the incumbent King.
  • The King serves, the ball must be served into the king's square, the King's foot being in the outer corner of his square.
  • All other hits must be bounced into another player's square. The player and square being one, bouncing into your own square is a 'double-hit, which is an illegal move.
  • If the ball hits the ground or an object anywhere outside the court, the last player whose body or square it had hit is disqualified - they leave the game (regardless of position), and will usually take the back of the queue (awaiting reentry through Dunce).
  • This means you are allowed to throw the basketball at other players. Throwing the ball at someone's head is risky though, and therefore rare; if they dodge, your ball will land outside the court, this is "hitting out", and you are disqualified.

This isn't my school's variant in full, but these are the major differences.
Just another voice, here.--The Chairman (talk · contribs) 09:41, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Classic

This line should never be removed: "Generally speaking, the longer a player remains in square four then the more points or street credit that player earns."

I think there should be an expanded discussion of the associated street cred, if possible. --152.2.240.132 23:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)


because not all versions have the top square as the square four, i think it shoul db echanged to "the longer a player remains in the top square..." --69.73.106.243 06:01, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Capitalisation of Square

So should the S be capital or not? The title of it uses s, but then the rest of it is S. --WikiSlasher 13:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

- As best as I can tell, Wikipedia seems to only have caps in the first word if its not a proper noun. I always cap each word but then it gets corrected by another user. --Sean Effel 18:38, 20 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Main Picture

Isn't that picture incorrect in accordance to the International League?

Someone edit the part under Errors and Elimination where it say "Your mom would be mad at you if you got out.


That picture is indeed incorrect according the rules of the International 4-Square League, but since this is an article about 4-Square in general and not just the way the I4SL plays it, I don't have any problem with it. 4SquareCommish May 14th, 2007

[edit] Adirondack 4-square

To the person who deleted all of my alterations to the 4-square page, and commented that this was because of additions relating to how "one day camp does it," I would like to inform you that you are seriously mistaken. Perhaps you are not from upstate (Capital District Region) New York, but the style developed in Speculator, NY during the mid-1990s spread to over 15 schools and many more local parks and playgrounds in the Albany Area over the past 15 years. Since we have more registered competitors in our tournaments than some of the other recognized four square associations on this webpage I ask why this style of play should not receive equal display on this page? Over 2,000 people engage in this style of 4-square each year. I have not critisized anything from the other forms, I have memerly added a different style play. Is there some hidden agenda on someone's part to prevent the world community from knowing how this game is played in upstate NY? It seems that the other associations listed on this page are just as regional.

Thank you.

Nighthawk50 03:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC)(A concerned wikipedia user)


Oh, and in addition to the aforementioned data, the changes I have made to this page reflect the official rules of the 4-square clubs at SUNY Oswego and Cornell University (two colleges in upstate NY).

Nighthawk50 04:03, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


Then you really have to show some documentation or citation for the information you post or it runs the risk of deletion due to original research. Its happened to me before and it sucks, especially when there are no other resources out there like with four square in general. None the less, if you have official rules for your clubs, then your clubds should have their own articles.--Sean Effel 19:00, 5 October 2007 (UTC)