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Contents 1 Daughters of a duke/marquess versus younger sons of a duke/marquess 2 Son of peer who holds a higher degree 3 Laird 3.1 Article Merged 3.2 Nobility of Scottish Feudal Barons 3.3 Previously unsectioned comments 3.4 How the Queen addresses people 3.5 how peers address each other 3.6 Addressing today 3.7 My Lord / Your Lordship 3.8 Proposed merge 3.9 Privy Counsellors 3.10 Forms of address to Royalty

[edit] Daughters of a duke/marquess versus younger sons of a duke/marquess

The unmarried daughter of a duke/marquess (or earl for that matter) is The Lady [Christian name]. The son of a duke/marquess (but not the son of an earl) is Lord [Christian name], not The Lord [Christian name], and his wife is Lady [Husband's Christian name]. For example, the third son of the 7th Duke of Marlborough was Lord Randolph Churchill, not The Lord Randolph Churchill. His wife, following their marriage, was Lady Randolph Churchill, not The Lady Randolph Churchill. The daughter of the 7th Duke of Marlborough, prior to her marriage to the future 7th Duke of Roxburghe, was The Lady Anne Churchill. Similarly, with great-grandchildren of the sovereign, the daughter of HRH The Duke of Kent was born The Lady Helen Windsor. Her younger brother was born Lord Nicholas Windsor. This information comes from Wikipedia's own page on courtesy titles. Someone reversed my edit to this effect. We should try and keep things consistent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GiovanniCarestini (talk • contribs) 02:53, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Seeing no objection, I have gone ahead and made the appropriate changes. GiovanniCarestini (talk) 03:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Son of peer who holds a higher degree

Should it be Dr. The Hon. John Smith or is it The Hon. Dr. John Smith? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.8.16.115 (talk) 03:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC) The latter. --Camaeron (talk) 19:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Laird

Why is laird only listed as madam. Does anybody know the proper address of a Laird? I always thought it was John Smith, Laird (Lord) of Edinburgh!? --Camaeron (talk) 14:11, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article Merged

Article merged: See old talk-page here --Skywolf ^talk/_contribs 06:49, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nobility of Scottish Feudal Barons

The Scottish feudal barons are here categorised under 'gentry', although it should be pointed out that they are members of the nobility as well as the gentry (notwithstanding Burke: ref the Lord Lyon's office).

[edit] Previously unsectioned comments

Forms of Address in Australia

Position	Written Address	Salutation	Oral Address
Everybody	Bruce (or Cheryl) Smith	G'day	Hey mate

Aren't MPs orally referred as 'The Honourable John Smith' or is that only as 'The Honourable member fo Smithville North'? DJ Clayworth 22:31, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

The Hon John Smith would suggest that he is the son of a peer. Adam 23:12, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

MPs recieve the title of "Honourable" only during Parliamentary debates. The title is not supposed to be used outside of the Commons. Lord Emsworth 00:38, Nov 14, 2003 (UTC)

With reference to Church of England Clergy, some female Priests use the form 'Mother John' or 'Mother Smith' instead of 'Father.' 82.42.202.29 06:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

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Great page! Congrats to Lord Emsworth. 217.159.40.49 15:57, 23 Nov 2003 (UTC) P.S. That John Smith is one busy guy!

[edit] How the Queen addresses people

This link shows forms of address for the various ranks of peerage by the Queen:

• Duke: "Our right trusty and right entirely beloved cousin (and counsellor)"
• Marquis: "Our right trusty and entirely beloved cousin (and counsellor)"
• Earl: "Our right trusty and entirely beloved cousin (and counsellor)"
• Viscount: "Our right trusty and well-beloved cousin (and counsellor)"
• Baron/Lord of Parliament: "Right trusty and well-beloved cousin (and counsellor)"

—Ashley Y 06:26, 2005 Jan 31 (UTC)

Need to amend the table somewhat. Under the terms of the 1917 Letters Patent the eldest son of the Prince of Wales' son is also entitled to HRH style and dignity. All other sons/daughters in the direct male line as grandchildren of the sons of the sovereign are only "Lord/Lady" taking precedence as sons of a Duke Alci12

Should now be fine. Proteus (Talk) 00:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] how peers address each other

and how does an earl address a duke, another earl, a baron, etc.? and king to king (just using the name of his country, I believe)

[edit] Addressing today

Regarding the question above: Officially a Monarch addresses another Monarch as cousin - even if they are not true cousins. When gathered together Monarchs define precedence by who has reigned longest. The host Monarch generally assumes precedence and would walk in front with the longest serving monarch.

There is a lot of confusion about the aristocracy in general today - to set the record straight: Outside of the Royal family there have since the 1950s been huge changes to British etiquette regarding the peerage - In modern parlance peers tend to address each other by Christian names the same as other people, in England, when referring to each other they just tend to say Lord Smith of the Duke of Bedford etc. When in the House of Lords they may more formally say "My noble friend |colleague"

As it says on the project page here It is now quite acceptable to begin a letter to a Duke or Duchess as "Dear Duchess" not "Dear Duchess of Bedford". For an Earl of Countess, one writes say to the Countess of Rosebery "Dear Lady Rosebery" never "Dear Lady". Envelopes are addressed with the full title, and any honorifics such as Right Honourable. An envelope addressed in Britain to Queen Elizabeth II is addressed just HM The Queen, although to be strictly correct even today missives to the Queen should be sent through her Private secretary or the Lord chamberlain's office, as it was once deemed rude to approach the sovereign uninvited, even by letter. No inference of "Lèse-Majesté" is taken though if the Queen is written to directly. She doesn't open the letters anyway - her personal friends use a code on the envelope - or more probably text her (she has a mobile phone)

Strangers still tend to address in speech a Duke of Duchess as "Your Grace", the rest one addresses today as Lord Smith, Lady Smith whatever their rank. The older forms of speech address such as Milady, M'Lord, Your Ladyship etc. are now only used by employees, and then not always - in many modern/young "noble" households the staff address their employers by their Christian names alone the same as in any modern working environment.

The old rules regarding these matters are still there, but generally they are ignored by unspoken common consent. Most British aristocrats today would be surprised and embarrassed to receive a letter beginning My Lord, and concluding we beg to remain your humble and obedient servant. Unless it was from their bank manager, then theywould be very worried. Even in 1898 the London accountants J H Schroder were concluding letters to Earls merely "We are dear Sir, your's faithfully"

To sum up the aristocracy tend to still be given voluntary deference and respect, but in a far less ostentatious way than in previous centuries, and most certainly do not take offence when people get it wrong. Giano | talk 12:33, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Sovereigns address each other as brother/Sister - both usually before and officially since the Congress of Vienna. The only time you don't see this is if there is some other traditional form between particular sovereigns or a snub (eg Nicholas I refusing this form to Napoleon III). Sovereigns further refer to foreign princes as 'cousins' as do many monarchs with their domestic nobles.Alci12 11:23, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My Lord / Your Lordship

In the Agatha Christie novel Why Didn't They Ask Evans?, the character Freddy has to pose as Lady Frankie Derwent's servant, and realises, once in public, that he does not know whether to address her as "My Lady" or "Your Ladyship" (instead of his usual "Frankie"). She hints that the right answer is "Your Ladyship", but what does the difference means? I'm under the impression that "Your Lordship" and "Your Ladyship" is used mostly by servants and that "My Lord" and "My Lady" by commoners. Is that correct? Eje211 15:26, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Not quite- things vary with time and context - but essentially. The former is the most subservient, the latter can be used by social equals or superiors. eg the Duke of Wellington after his duel, departs "Good morning, my Lord Wilchelsea; good morning, my Lord falmouth" [to an earl and viscount respectively]Alci12 11:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I always thought it depended whether the speaker was addressing or referring to the person in question. E.g. "Good morning, my lord. I have your lordship's cup of tea ready." Opera hat (talk) 16:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed merge

See Talk:Styles_in_the_United_Kingdom#Proposed_merge — MrDolomite | Talk 17:46, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Privy Counsellors

A note in the article (near the top) says that the honorific The Right Honorable should only be applied to Peers who are also Privy Councellors. But I note that it is also applied to those peers who are earls, viscounts, and barons on the envelope of letters as shown in the table. I assume that if the peer was not a Privy Counsellor, then those words would be left off of the address on the envelope. Is this correct? -RobertBlacknut 17:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

In a related matter, what if someone is not a peer but is a Privy Counsellor? How should they be addressed, on envelope, et cetera? Also, does the style The Right Honorable ever apply apart from someone being a Privy Counsellor? -RobertBlacknut 17:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that the style "The Right Honorable" applies to both peers who are earls, viscounts, and barons as well as to pricy counsellors. I think that it applies to each of these groups independently, one does not have to be both a peer and a pricy counsellor for it to apply. Is this correct? -RobertBlacknut 15:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

That is correct. Peers who are also Privy Counsellors use the post-nominals "PC" to denote that status. PC is not used by non-peers since The Rt Hon is enough to show that a commoner is a Privy Counsellor. 84.13.144.48 (talk) 23:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Forms of address to Royalty

The above page needs updating. It gives the wife of the Prince of Wales as HRH Princess of Wales.

Er .... just wondering how The Duchess of Cornwall feels about that?

92.16.118.171 (talk) 10:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)