Talk:Fork etiquette

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[edit] Great article

To the author: Great article. :-) That's what I like about Wikipedia: these little pieces of culture and cultural differences that you won't find documented elsewhere. Simon A. 19:21, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Zigzag method

Wonderful article. Who coined the term "zigzag"?

I think this manner of eating is also done here in Canada as well. At least, I do something that approximates this, though my table manners are not exactly perfect. :) Can any other Canadians corroborate? --Saforrest 19:47, Sep 9, 2004 (UTC)

Well, I'm Canadian, but I don't put the utensils down, I just eat with my fork in the left hand (and impale the food, not scoop it). Otherwise I might cut up a piece of meat into little pieces and eat with my right hand, not using the left at all (I did that as a kid, at least). Adam Bishop 19:52, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I, too, am Canadian, and I believe I typically eat the same way as Adam Bishop. If I do eat using the zigzag method, I think that I only make one cut at a time, not several. --Timc 03:37, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I have noticed that a lot of "zig zag" eaters eat with hats on backward at the table and talk in grunts and monosyllables. Is this also socially significant?????

If you wish to make a comment of that sort, you can at least identify yourself. Nobody here is saying that those who don't use the zig-zag method have any negative European stereotype. BirdValiant 21:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

In England, it is also more common to hold the fork "upside down" and push the food onto the prongs of fork with the knife.

Eating technique varies with the thing being eaten. Some foods are more scoopable than stabbable. I never knew there was a technical term for this eating method though! Paul Tracy

It's been interesting coming to live in Canada from the UK. People say that eating the European way instead of 'zigzagging' actually is a more efficient way of eating, and also looks better. I am having considerable difficulty getting my 9 y o daughter to eat the 'correct' way.

The Miss Manners book Basic Training: Eating describes something similar to this article's zig-zag method as the standard American style, but says it isn't proper to cut more than one piece of food at once.--Trystan 00:25, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
Now that would be inefficient. If I need to eat something that requires the need of a knife, like a steak or pork chop or something, I usually cut a narrow strip of the meat, and cut that up into four or five pieces, then proceed to put down the knife. Or I could cut up those pieces and keep the knife in the hand, eating with the left, or I could cut one at a time. Whatever I feel like. But cutting one small piece and then setting the knife down would be and look ridiculous, and I think, less proper. BirdValiant 21:38, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
In the words of Miss Manners, it is a "foolish notion to think that the rules of etiquette are intended to be either logical or efficient." The article should reflect what etiquette authorities say is proper, not what seems like the fastest way to eat. If there are conflicting authorities they should probably all be cited, but I only have to access to the one.--Trystan 21:51, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm just saying that I'm not going to cut and eat the pieces one by one just because of some crappy etiquette rule. Not that I don't conform to other etiquette rules. Just my personal opinion. BirdValiant 01:26, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zigzag method in Poland considered unpolite

While I of course can not speak for every Pole here, but I'd like to point out that zigzag method is considered unpolite here in Poland. Zigzag method is permitted for very young children or in very non-formal circumtances. Przepla 18:30, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

As "another" Pole, I can only confirm that, and I believe I am speaking for the vast majority of Poles. Eating anyhow else than employing the "European style" is considered absolutely boorish. I would have never thought anybody would consider eating using this "Zigzag method" in any circustances rather than very informal... I must have met only the most cultured Americans in my life... Bravada, talk - 01:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
I am not a Pole, I am from Scotland, but I recognise the sentiment here. Anything other than what is being described as 'European style' is regarded in the UK as demonstating a distinct lack of manners and a bad upbringing. The fork should never be used as shovel, regardless of the fact that it would sometimes be convenient to do so (peas being the most obvious example).
However, I would be interested to hear what people thought about eating foreign cuisine. When eating curry, for example, is it okay to only use a fork, to keep it in your right hand, and to use it as a shovel?Ewan carmichael 15:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Prevalence in America

Do Americans generally eat like this? I seems like a lot of work, changing hands constantly? - Matthew238 03:13, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes they do. I've personally been doing it since I was a kid, and I'm from Australia.--Gene_poole 05:57, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
However, the food is not always eaten afterwards in a 'spoon-like manner'; it may also be impaled. Personally, I find myself eating with both methods, with fork in right hand and left hand somewhere else, and with the fork in left hand and knife in right. However, I don't use the 'hidden handle' method, although it may be temporarily in that position while cutting with the knife. I also cut the the food with the side of the fork (with left hand somewhere else) if the food is thin or tender enough to be cut without the aide of a knife. I'm from Wisconsin. BirdValiant 23:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I've always been taught that it's extremely rude to cut off more than one piece of meat then switch hands, as is using a knife to help shovel food onto a fork. And while the fork is held in a "spoon like manner" in the other hand, I've -never- seen anybody try to scoop up a piece of meat.
On the other hand, I'd like to know how people eating in the continental style eat none-hard objects, like potatoes, corn, peas, etc. Do you stab individual kernels?
71.235.66.254 22:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I've been living in America all my life, and I've never seen anyone change hands when they eat. Ever. So I'm wondering where people who eat like that live, because it sure isn't where I do. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.174.15.235 (talk) 20:25, 11 May 2007 (UTC).
I'm not sure if you are young or not, but I am in my late 30s and almost all of my friends ate ZigZag style and were raised by very proper upper middle class parents. Similar to the Polish folks above, eating continental style would have be seen by my parents as very boorish. However, now the world is much more global - you find dizzy teenage girls using british spellings because they have been texting penpals in the UK - they have no idea where the UK is of course. Similarly, some baby boomers have started to teach their kids how to eat continental style because they think it is cool. Tradition is not sacred here. So maybe you and your friends have baby boomer parents? Cshay (talk) 06:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] peas with honey

As a (British) child I had to ask at table if I may turn my fork over in order to scoop up food. This request was usually granted, albeit grudgingly. We were reminded of how "common" people ate (pronounced "et" in those days) by the rhyme: He eats his peas with honey He´s done it all his life It makes the peas taste funny But it keeps them on his knife.

I want to ask the question, "How does a proper Brit eat peas?" Do I recall correctly that it is with what we Americans would call a butter knife? If so, what do you call this knife? I assume it is not the same knife that one uses for cutting steak? Doesn't it seem inefficient? On another note, I've tried to eat, keeping the fork in my left hand. It feels very unnatural to me as I am not used to it. The fork-switching is used only in the most proper setting. With family or friends we don't typically bother. The fork switching is quite tiresome. Of course there are families that insist on their children doing the fork switching thing; to eat that way every time. It just depends on what people prefer. But it, or the European method should be followed when eating with someone of importance (That is, in the U.S.)Scot.parker 22:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] {{OR}}

I was asked by Secular mind why I put {{OR}} (original research) on the article. It looks like most of the claims have been verified by people on this talk page. Perhaps {{unreferenced|date=August 2006}} would have been better, as there are no citations. I will replace {{OR}} with {{unreferenced|date=August 2006}}. --Midnightcomm 14:11, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

To some extend the following (cited from WP:OR might) apply
In some cases, where an article (1) makes descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and (2) makes no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claims, a Wikipedia article may be based entirely on primary sources (examples would include apple pie or current events), but these are exceptions.
I'm a little bit worried that the "zigzag" method is a neologism, I found a web page using the same term [1], but there should be a more reputable source. Until such a source is provided American Style is probably more appropriate. Trystan seems to have access to Miss Manners' book Basic Training: Eating, which appearingly verifies the American Style. As I have personaly no access to that book I hesitate to add it as a source myself, it would be nice if Trystan could do that (maybe with page or chaperter). I will try to find a source for the European style (probably in German). Secular mind 18:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
apparently "Zigzagging" it was coined by Emily Post


I especially enjoy those "16th century American colonists". Many, many early (seventeenth-century of course) estate inventories have been published: forks were not rarities. The "refinement" of switching hands was invented after c. 1820, perhaps even after the Civil War, part of the newly elaborated American genteel etiquette of the Gilded Age: "gate-keeping devices to serve the cause of social exclusivity" (Hemphill p 131). In the dramatic explosion of U.S. etiquette manuals published after 1820, I wonder whether you'd find "switching" described before c. 1870. Emily Thornwell, The Lady's Guide to Perfect Gentility (1856) was reprinted by the Huntington Library in 1979: it might throw some light on this dimly-perceived subject. Or, better, C. Dallett Hemphill's Bowing to Necessities: A History of Manners in America, 1620-1860 (Oxford University Press, 1995). Is there anything in Norbert Elias, The Civilizing Process: The History of Manners (1939; tr. 1978)? Anything I might add to this hopelessly innocent and comic article would surely be cried down as "original research". I offer these hints for anyone willing to struggle uphill. This is not on my Watchlist. --Wetman 09:07, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source?

Here is a site the authors of this site should have a look at: [2]. Just a suggestion and FYI: both the Euro continental method and the Zig-Zag method are used in the US, with the former being depending on envrionment seen as more appropriate in elegant settings. To be honest I have a spent a large part of my life in the US where I currently life and zig-zagging in a nice resturant is not that common. But this article shouldn't be based on people's experiences. Both methods are used in the US, as my research indicates. Please lets add some sources. Signaturebrendel 07:27, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fork iin right hand as way to differentiate from english in colonial america

I read somewhere the fork in the right hand was a way to differentiate from the English in colonial American pubs? But can not find any reference to this.

[edit] Outside in? Inside out!

Or is this another difference between America and the rest of the world? I've travelled the globe, many times over, but have never stayed for more than a stop over in America and I've always been drilled by my parents from a young age that you use your utensils from the inside out. Thus making room from an entree plate for a main plate, et cetera. 211.30.71.59 08:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Far be it for me to say your parents are wrong, but I am going to do so anyway! When a table is set for formal dining, the cutlery is arranged in such a way as to be used from the outside in. It should be set with ample space for the largest plate to be accomodated. The only exception to this is dessert cutlery, which sits above where the plate would go, however in a higher class establishment the waiter will move this into its correct positions, fork on the left and spoon on the right, before the dessert is served.
Incidentally, I have always found the use of the word 'entree' for a main course to be a little odd, given that it means 'entrance' which would seem to be a more appropriate name for the starter. I had never heard of it before I was an exchange student in America.Ewan carmichael 15:50, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] European utencils handling

In Europe, the fork is held pretty much as in the states - the tines pointing down and pressed into what is being cut, then turned to be held somewhat like a pencil to allow greater movability. This allows the end of the fork to move straight into the mouth of the consumer without the need to move the elbow above the table (which is considered rude unless it is required in order to reach something in front of you). Also, unless absolutely necessary, it is considered rude to cut off more than one will eat in a single bite.

Furthermore, indicating that one has finished his/her course is done by placing fork and knife on the plate in parallel in a "twenty past five" postition. Resting the utencils for any other reason is done in the most practical way - preferably without crossing more than the blade of the knife by the tines of the fork.

In contrast to the American method of using a fork much like a spoon (tines up), the Europeans primarily use the fork with tines facing away from the user (tines down). Only in Britain, this method is widely correct. In most continental Countrys this would be considered bad table manners.

212.97.128.218 16:10, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pics

This article begs for photos or diagrams of the different ways to hold and use the fork.--84.20.17.84 16:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)