Talk:Foreskin restoration

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[edit] Anatomy

In my latest revert, I have tried to clear up the confusion between the frenar band and the dartos muscle. The Wikipedia article for dartos only defines the muscle as it exists in the scrotal skin. I am not entirely familiar with the anatomy of the foreskin, and am only using terminology explained to me by other restorers. Is the frenar band considered a part of the tunica dartos?--Z726 23:34, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please explain the latest revert

I do not understand why my latest edit has been reverted to a version of the article containing anatomically incorrect information, irrelevant links, and attempts at inserting a POV cynical of foreskin restoration. My contributions to this page have been aimed at correcting factual inaccuracies, removing irrelevant content, reorganizing content for clarity, and adding relevant content. Since there is no explanation given for this revert, I consider it vandalism, specificaly a "bad faith revert" as defined by the Wikipedia administration. If whoever did this will respond, I shall explain the concerns I have. If not, I will simply revert the article back to my latest edit. I would prefer to resolve this through discussion.--Z726 19:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure. Some problems include:
  • "The ring of muscle called the dartos" changed to "The ring of muscle called the frenar band". The name of this muscle is in fact the dartos.
  • "Foreskin restoration also cannot replace the ridged band" changed to "Nonsurgical foreskin restoration does not restore the frenulum or the ridged band." This introduces an error by implication. Neither surgical nor nonsurgical restoration can restore either structure.
  • Apparent removal of the sentence "The process of foreskin restoration seeks to regenerate some of the tissue removed by circumcision, as well as providing coverage of the glans." This is necessary to give the following sentence relevance.
  • More troublingly, removal of the pertinent fact that NOHARMM's poll was conducted by an anti-circumcision group. Whether this affects credibility is up to the reader, but he/she must be made aware of the fact.
  • Addition of original research: "These problems may arise from tight skin on a circumcised penis, whereas a restored foreskin is able to create a rolling and gliding action of the penile shaft skin along the erect shaft, reducing the friction necessary for sexual stimulation of the penis" and "These problems may be reduced (or alleviated, in the case of the second problem) by foreskin restoration, although erectile curvature can have other causes unrelated to skin loss (see Peyronie's disease)."
  • Most worryingly of all, complete censorship of several examples of cited scientific research showing that keratinisation does not occur, replacing it with speculation that it does. Such POV pushing is wholly unacceptable. Jakew 20:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I see where I might have made some mistakes, though I would prefer to have first been given an explanation on this discussion page. Perhaps we can figure out how I might restore some of the content I had added, without biasing the article. Concerns I have over your revert include the following:
  • The heading "Physical aspects" is vague: does "aspects" refer to foreskin restoration or its effects? I was attempting to make it more specific.
  • There is disagreement between this article and the dartos article over its definition. The linked article seems to agree with medical dictionaries in that the muscle is defined as part of the scrotum (as an example, see http://www2.merriam-webster.com/cgi-bin/mwmednlm?book=Medical&va=dartos). By this definition, circumcision cannot remove the entire dartos muscle. If the muscular band at the tip of the foreskin is indeed a part of the dartos, then that answers the question I had asked above on 9 July (which received no response).
  • Foreskin restoration does not regenerate tissues lost to circumcision. The sentence I removed was misleadiing, and may give false hopes to those desiring to restore their foreskins (a demographic for whom this article is intended). All that can be done is to either expand tissues already in place or to graft skin from another location.
  • I realize it was a mistake to leave out the fact that NOHARMM is an anti-circumcision group, but you could simply have added it in. Your removal of additional poll content that I quoted seems unnecessary, as the it was relevant to this article.
  • The comment about a "gliding action" was already present, and is not original research by me. The next sentence which you claim to be original research, "These problems may be reduced (or alleviated, in the case of the second problem) by foreskin restoration, although erectile curvature can have other causes unrelated to skin loss (see Peyronie's disease)." involves no research at all, but rather a logical way of providing the relevance of quoting the poll results here. Otherwise, it is merely data critical of circumcision.
  • The first link I removed describes a study on HIV and circumcision, which is not relevant to the topic of foreskin restoration. Although it does contain a single sentence about keratinization, there is no methodology or data to back it up - more, better proof of the claim is needed to be considered "scientific research." The second is described incorrectly; the authors do claim to have found significant differences, but do not go into detail explaining why these are dismissed. The third is biased, claiming that there is a "false premise of excessive sensitivity of the circumcised glans" - it appears that this study was performed with a conclusion already in mind, which may very well have influenced the outcome. The third and fourth links are non-expert sources that contain personal viewpoints, and one is a self-published source. The domain circs.org is registered to one Jake Waskett; am I correct in assuming this is you? The concern I have is that you have used links from your site to present a POV cynical of foreskin restoration or those who would seek to restore.
I would like to make this article as neutral as possible, and realize that I did make some mistakes in my edits. However, your own edit shows POV pushing which, in your words is "unacceptable." Specifically I would like to remove statements slanting this article in both pro-circ and anti-circ positions, and you seem to be reinforcing the former. Considering what you have stated in your user profile, why are you interested in foreskin restoration at all?--Z726 21:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Might a comparative outsider suggest something here? It starts with "assume good faith"
I've looked at what each of you has to say, and it appears to me that you are each arguing the same thing but from subtly different positions. What would work well in this situation is if you are able to agree on "one route forward" and thus create a better overall article.
Each of you brings much to the party, including a joint passion for correctness and ethics. Harnessing this and working together (though I recognise that your edits may then be mercilessly edited by others) would be a highy productive use of your time.
I don't think there are any sticking points between you, so much as differences of interpretation.
I should declare an interest here. I am against routine infant circumcision including on religious grounds (I do understand and respect the resons for the religious grounds, but I am against it nonetheless), but respect an adult's right to modify his body in way way he chooses, which includes circumcision and restoration. Fiddle Faddle 21:58, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, let me try to address these.

  • Aspects/effects: fine, no problem.
  • The dartos fascia is indeed part of the scrotum, in addition to the penis. You are correct in noting that circumcision cannot therefore remove it entirely. Better phrasing might be helpful here, though the term 'frenal band' appears to be informal.
  • "Foreskin restoration does not regenerate tissues lost to circumcision." - how about 'replace'?
  • "I realize it was a mistake to leave out the fact that NOHARMM is an anti-circumcision group, but you could simply have added it in." - ok
  • "Your removal of additional poll content that I quoted seems unnecessary, as the it was relevant to this article." - can you show that it's relevant without performing original research? That was my main concern.
  • "The next sentence which you claim to be original research, "These problems may be reduced (or alleviated, in the case of the second problem) by foreskin restoration, although erectile curvature can have other causes unrelated to skin loss (see Peyronie's disease)." involves no research at all" - then can you cite a source in support?
  • "The first link I removed describes a study on HIV and circumcision, which is not relevant to the topic of foreskin restoration." - the question is, does it contain relevant facts?
  • "Although it does contain a single sentence about keratinization, there is no methodology or data to back it up - more, better proof of the claim is needed to be considered "scientific research."" - on the contrary, the methodology is explained: "Histological observations were carried out on samples of penile tissue obtained from 13 perfusion fixed cadavers of men aged 60-96 years, seven of whom had been circumcised." To the best of my knowledge, this is the only study in the literature in which the keratinisation hypothesis has in fact been tested.
  • "The second is described incorrectly; the authors do claim to have found significant differences, but do not go into detail explaining why these are dismissed." - any differences were lost when controlling for confounding factors. The description is indeed correct - to quote from the conclusion: "We demonstrated that there are no significant differences in penile sensation between circumcised and uncircumcised men with respect to vibration, spatial perception, pressure, warm and cold thermal thresholds in both patients with and without erectile dysfunction."
  • "The third is biased, claiming that there is a "false premise of excessive sensitivity of the circumcised glans" - it appears that this study was performed with a conclusion already in mind, which may very well have influenced the outcome." - the belief at the time was that the circ'd glans was more sensitive. The study was intended to test it.
  • "The third and fourth links are non-expert sources that contain personal viewpoints, and one is a self-published source." - factually incorrect. As is perfectly apparent from the citations at the bottom of the pages, both were originally published in the British Medical Journal. Certainly they contain opinions, however that's not a problem, and citing these demonstrates that the paragraph is not original research. Jakew 12:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll try and edit the article to clear up the definition of the dartos muscle. For now I'll leave out references to the frenar band, as there seems to be some confusion surrounding it. You should remember the term from the book, "The Joy of Uncircumcising," which you critique at your website - the book discusses it in several places, including how it came to exist. It was coined by pathologist John Taylor, who presented his research at the Second Internation Symposium on Circumcision in 1991. As published in the British Journal of Urology, he refers to it as the "ridged band" (http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1046/j.1464-410X.1996.85023.x), though he uses both terms synonymously in a 1997 interview in which he describes his research. He defines the frenar band as skin that "forms a loop that's continuous with the frenulum. Its all one continuous structure," later describing it as "part of the lining of the prepuce which I've called the ridged band in that article, also called the frenar band which we've mentioned." (http://www.intact.ca/taylor.html)
I'm not sure whether or not it's best to refer to it here as "ridged band," "frenar band," or just as a "muscular band" the way it is currently. For now I'll leave it as the third option. I will write more as I have time. Also, this page size has gotten large; is there any way of archiving some of the discussion here to shorten up the current discussion page?--Z726 16:50, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Interesting. At Taylor's own website, he states "'Ridged band' is not synonymous with 'frenar band', the muscular ring or sphincter of equine prepuce. The race horse`s penile sheath has serious economic value so vets know all about the frenar band. Perhaps the horse has a ridged band as well as a frenar band. Worth a look." [1]
Confused yet? Me too. :) As for archiving - I'll do it. Jakew 18:09, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Wow, now I know more than I ever needed to know about horse urology. :) I wonder why he metntioned that at his site. By the time he wrote this newsletter the term "frenar band" - as applied to human anatomy - had already been in use by others such as Bigelow. Perhaps he is just saying this band on a human prepuce is not the same as that of a horse? Doctors can sure have a strange sense of humor.--Z726 05:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References, article organization

I've been looking around at other Wikipedia articles, and finding footnotes to be commonly used. I think they would be useful in this article, in that a "references" section at the bottom would separate all the cited journal articles from the External Links, and in that we wouldn't have to cite them in the text. Any thoughts on this?

Also, I've been thinking of how to organize the article to best describe foreskin restoration. I would propose moving "Surgical Techniqus" and "Non-Surgical Techniques" to directly below the introduction, follow it with a new section describing effects of restoration (similar to "Physical Aspects"), and then following that with History (which I would propose merging with "Reasons", as reasons for it have changed with history). Suggestions would be appreciated.--Z726 01:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Preputioplasty

There is a discussion at Talk:Preputioplasty regarding whether or not that article should link to Foreskin restoration and your opinion would be welcome. I have not checked whetehr this artcile also links to preputioplasty. To me it seems a natural item to link to since the procedure may prevent any need for circumcision in the first place Fiddle Faddle 14:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] anti-circumcision

-DUDE-

I'd like to know if this is truth or only a anti-circuncison movement, the most people in U.S.A has been circuncised, and in other places around the world, Jews, a big part of Europe, even porn acts, and as far as I know the majority of them have not reported problems about pleasure nor something similar, so what's it behind of this?. Maybke to make money with ridiculous business by internet?.


Well it wouldn't make sense that they'd report pleasure problems if they were circumcised at birth since they'd have ntohing to compare it to. People who have had sex, been circumsized, and had sex after have ntoed changes in sensitivity and that's plenty valid

Actually, in America circumsicion is 50/50.I don't know where you've been getting your facts, but most of Europe is against circumsicing their baby boys. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.104.88.44 (talk) 20:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Image

I've removed the above image from the article. I don't have a problem with the image per se, but I do have some concerns. First, the uploader claims it is an image of an 18-year old's penis, which is potentially problematic. Second, There is no information about the type of restoration method supposedly used, the length of time the program has been followed, and the amount of starting foreskin, nor of whether or not the subject had been circumicised. I'm sure a friendly email to someone from one of the restoration sites would result in a ton of offers to use images, and we could probably find a good series of photos showing progress. In the meantime, this image has to go. Exploding Boy 00:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, the uploader asserts that he is the creator of the image, so I would imagine that most of these problems could be resolved by contacting that person, as he is quite likely to be the person to whom that penis belongs.
Secondly, I fail to see how the image could be "potentially problematic" purely by dint of being "of an 18-year-old's penis" - I don't see what the problem is here. Is it the person's age (if so, why?), or the fact that it's a penis, or both?
As it stands, we have an article about foreskin restoration where the only image is of a natural born foreskin - there are no images of restored foreskins at all. The image you mention is not perfect, but it's a start. 217.155.20.163 23:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
18 years is adult as far as obscene images are concerned in the English speaking world. The removal requires justification. "In the meantime, this image has to go" is not a rationale for removal Fiddle Faddle 08:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

There's no proof at all (in the form of before and after pictures) that this is a "partially restored" foreskin. There's no information about what method(s) were used, how long it took, or anything else. We don't even know if the person is actually 18! For all we know, it's the never-circumcised penis of a 15 year-old. Exploding Boy 16:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Rather than turn this into a reversion war, let's instead reach a consensus. While there is nothing documented the editor who uploaded it can be asked. That is very different from performing a unilateral removal. The penis in question exhibits two prominent features of the semi-restored foreskin:
  1. the lack of "normal" pseudo-sphinctre at the tip
  2. the stubbiness of a penis that has had restoration devices removed immediately prior to its picture being taken and prior to it relaxing into a less covered state.
We have to take the editor's word for the age. If he says he was 18, and it looks 18, then it's 18.
I agree it's a poor example. At present it's the best we've got, and my view is that it should be reinstated pending a better example being available.
I appreciate the vigour with which you defend the article. I think that energy could be better deployed following your own suggestion "I'm sure a friendly email to someone from one of the restoration sites would result in a ton of offers to use images, and we could probably find a good series of photos showing progress." and gathering a good set of example pictures. It could then be possible to create a gallery of various different penises in different stages of restoration. Fiddle Faddle 16:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Two problems with that: it could be an uncut penis that naturally lacks full coverage (although I agree, the skin seems somewhat thick); and if the penis is, as you say, in an unnaturally "stubby" state, then this isn't an accurate representation of the amount of restored foreskin. In all likelihood, this person doesn't have anywhere near the amount of coverage he seems to. Anyway, I'll see if he can be contacted. Exploding Boy 16:50, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Which may be a problem since he hasn't been here for 6 months. Exploding Boy 16:52, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Bit of a challenge, that. I think we should work on the basis that the picture is "poor but the best we have" and continue to use it while seeking another picture or series of pictures. It does not look like an uncut penis with incomplete coverage, and it is not a "fully covered" restoration (0.9 probability). Fiddle Faddle 23:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Religious views

I would like to know if foresking reconstruction is allowed in Judaism, Christianity (in the East-Orthodox churches), and Islam (and whatever other culture which practices circumcision). --Shunra (27.6.07 14:00 Israel time)

While I can't speak from the perspective of those religions, a couple referenced links from this article suggest that foreskin restoration was known by Jews traveling in Europe, and even imposed on them during occupation by the Greeks and later the Romans. It is generally thought that around 140 AD the Jews settled on a method of circumcision that would leave little skin, making foreskin restoration difficult or impossible.[2][3]. In recent years, I have chatted with a few people at restoration sites who were Jewish; for them I suppose it was a personal decision to restore and not affected by religious persuasions. I haven't met any Muslims or Orthodox Christians doing this, though as far as I know most Orthodox Christians don't circumcise in the first place.
This "NeutralActivist" guy seems to have gotten himself banned rather quickly. To refute his claim, foreskin restoration is not about activism; it exists for those of us who simply want to grow more skin on our penises.--Z726 19:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

no reason to shunra..this is just anti-circ activist stuff. One time there was a activist group in america which claimed breast implants caused cancer. Turned out to be false. Plus there are many men who say they got more pleasure after being circumcised. The internet is a bad place for inforamtion cuz it always shows the bad. circlist.com go to this website it will let you know why you should be happy being circumcised. As for religious views Judaism-prohibits restoration Islam-prohibits restoration Christianity-its fine —Preceding unsigned comment added by NeutralActivist (talk • contribs)

WIth all respect, the silicone they use in breast implants DO causes cancer, so i dont know what you mean by "a activist group". But i can understand the position you are in the US where you people are being brainwashed. 77.248.185.43 13:09, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Frenar band

There's been some confusion as to the definition of the frenar band, and I failed to clear it up during my edits from last year. I've linked to an interview with JR Taylor in which he described it, and referenced a section of the book The Joy of Uncircumcising which refers to a presentation he gave in 1991 in which he defined this. In the interview it is unclear whether the definition of the frenar band is the different from that of the ridged band, though I've found a bunch of sites saying the two are synonymous. Whatever the case, this is mucosal tissue and cannot be defined as a "muscle sheath."

The source which stated that the frenar band could be recreated is misleading, so I have replaced it with more accurate information. There are surgeries to tighten the orifice of a restored foreskin, but they can't recreate a band of tissue that was removed during circumcision.--Z726 20:20, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] removal of "criticism" section

The revision I've removed refers to an article on foreskin restoration[[4]] that quotes one Dr. William Reiner. For the benefit of the user at 67.35.83.97, I should point out that Dr. Renier refers to various reasons for foreskin restoration (not the act itself) in saying, "These issues are more psychological than physical, and there's probably some placebo effect that's very helpful to them." This quote was mangled in the previous revision to make it appear to have a completely different meaning, misquoting the Dr. and entirely misrepresenting what he says.--Z726 (talk) 03:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)