Talk:Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia

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This article contains material from the CIA World Factbook which, as a U.S. government publication, is in the public domain.

Contents

[edit] International Reactions

These are useful to understand geopolitics and international perceptions, and the reasons and change of these perceptions through time. Perhaps a corresponding section should be created in these articles. I'll start with a quote.

«ἡ κυβέρνησις τῶν Η.Π.Α. θεωρεῖ, ὅτι συζήτησις περὶ «Μακεδονικοῦ ἔθνους, Μακεδονικῆς πατρίδος καὶ Μακεδονικῆς ἐθνικῆς συνειδήσεως» ἰσοῦται μὲ δημαγωγίαν, ποὺ δὲν ὑποκρύπτει ἐθνικὴν ἢ πολιτικὴν πραγματικότητα, ἀλλὰ ὑποκρύπτει ἐπεκτατικὰς διαθέσεις κατὰ τῆς Ἑλλάδος».

"The United States government holds, that any discussion of a Macedonian nation, Macedonian homeland, or Macedonian national identity, to be demagoguery, that does not hold ethnic or political reality, but expansionary attitudes towards Greece."

- Edward Stettinius, U.S. Secretary of State, December 26, 1944

http://www.sartzetakis.gr/points/makedonia16.html

[edit] Naming dispute

Peer review Foreign relations of the Republic of Macedonia has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

What seems to be missing from this section of the article is the rejected diplomatic compromise attempt generally known as "Pineiro package" (named after the Portuguese Foreign Minister Joao di Deus Pineiro) that had proposed the "New Macedonia" name, and other attempts with proposed names such as "Slavic Macedonia" and derivatives. Etz Haim 16:43, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

To clarify, so Greece doesn't want "Macedonia" at all in the country name? Does it offer a suggestion? --Menchi 03:08, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

In 1995 they reached a compromise, and that was FYROM. It was a compromise, Greece didn't want Macedonia used at all, but it seemed at that time the FYROM compromise would be as good as it would get, so they accepted it, along with the FYROMians. Now it appears as if FYROM wants to go back to their original name and forget the compromise. Greece offered alternatives such as Skopje, the capital of FYROM. -- HawkeyE 07:13, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Concerning Greece's objection to article 49 of the constitution of fYROM: my understanding is that it was based on the fact that the Republic of Macedonia is ascribed as caretaker of "Macedonian people", a term which in Greece refers to ethnic Greeks living in the northern Greek province. In this article it is mentioned that the objection of the Greek government concerned Slavic-Macedonian minorities in Greece, an unlikely case since the Greek government does not recognize such a minority exists within Greece. Rather, the objection refers to the ambiguity concerning to whom the term "Macedonian people" refers to, Greeks or Slavs?--Alx bio 01:56, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Neutral Wikipedia?

Dear all

I am writting about the issue of Macedonia, Republic of Macedonia, Macedonian Slavs (like Wikipedia calls the Macedonians) and the problem between Macedonia and Greece about the term Macedonia. I am aware that this issue is largely discussed here, at Wikipedia, and Wikipedia claims that it is trying to take a neutral side. But, that is not the case. Wikipedia is everything except neutral in this question. In the following lines I will explain you why.

From the text in Wikipedia most of the people will conclude that Macedonian nation appeared during the World War 2 and Tito was the one who 'invented' us. The family of my wife (she is Mexican) read this and asked me is it truth. That was actually the first time I read what Wikipedia says about my nation, which was a direct reason for my reaction. My grandfather is born in 1911th. Yesterday I had a talk with him. He took a part in the strugle for independence since 1925th and he took a part in the 2nd world war. He is alive and personal prove that Wikipedia is full of bullshit and lies about our origin. He spent half of his life proving and fighting for that. He was shot 3 times, all 3 from the Bulgarians who wanted to ocupy Macedonia in the Balkan wars and in the WW1 and WW2. Just a 1 min with him will show you how many lies you suport in Wikipedia.

I tried to edit some of the text few days ago, but everithing I wrote was deleted. And all I wrote were facts. Fact 1. Macedonians (or Macedonian Slavs, like ONLY Wikipedia, Greece and Cyprus calls us) is the only nation of many living in the area concentrated inside the borders of the geographical region of Macedonia. This is a pure fact, something that you can even find on the CIA web page. Can you give any fact to deny my fact? If you can not, why you erased it from Wikipedia? Fact 2. Republic of Macedonia has diplomatic relations with about 150 countries in the world. Wikipedia says that "at least 20" countries recognize Macedonia under the name Macedonia. Guess what? That number is more than 100. And this is an officially confirmed by our ministery for foreighn affairs. Fact 3. Wikipedia says that my country Contraversialy calls itself Republic of Macedonia. This is a pure example of taking a side in the problem. Why you don't say that Greece contraversialy deny us the use of the name Macedonia? If you intended to be neutral, just write that we have the naming problem with Greece, but do not call my name "contraversial"!!! Fact 4. While explaining about the antient Macedonia, its kings etc. you highly support the claim for their Greek origin. I can give you 1000s of facts that that is not truth and I beleive that some Greek guy can give you 1000s facts that those claims are truth. That was 2400 years ago and there is no chanse for us to know the real situation. We can only guess. But, when you give the Greek suported version, why you ignore the version suported by the newaged Macedonians? In this moment I can give you 10 names of internationally respected scientist supporting our theory. If you are neutral, why you ignore it? Fact 5. Wikipedia says that the Turkish Empire were calling us Bulgarians. Strange, because the Turks were recognizing the uniqueness of our nation since the moment they occupied the teritory of Macedonia. Actually, the Turkish history archives are the biggest prove of our existance, history and culture. Did anyone of you ever read anything from those archives? Even on the birth certificate of Khemal Ataturk says that he is born in Bitola, Macedonia. And his autobiography is full of memories of his childhood spend with the Macedonians. Fact 6. Wikipedia ignores the egsodus of the Macedonian people from Greece and says they were running because they were supporters of the comunists. 1/3 of the Macedonians have origin from this part of Macedonia. They were runned away from there by force and you can find many historical proves for that. Again, big part of my family has origin from there. As a matter of fact, my grand-grand father was married to a Greek woman, my grand-grand mother. But, no matter of that, his house was burned and he was forced to run away for his life and the life of his family. How dare you deny this? Do you know that even today my grand father is not allowed to visit Greece, because he was a kid when his family runned away from there? Fact 7. There are about 500 000 Macedonians that live outside Macedonia, mostly in Canada, Australia, USA, Sweden etc. At least 1/3 moved there before 1930s. If we were a product of Tito, how can you explain that even they feel of Macedonian nationality? I have a family in USA which moved there in 1927th. Their ancestors (my cousins) do not even know how to talk Macedonian well. But, they still feel Macedonian. One of them is even one of the financiers of the party of the Macedonians in Bulgaria, trying to help their strugle to keep their national identity. I repeat, first time he visited Macedonia was in 1995th, far after Tito. And his family moved in USA in 1927th, far before Tito. Fact 8. Wikipedia claims that the book of Macedonian songs by Dimitar Miladinov is actually Bulgarian. Have you maybe seen a original copy of the book, printed in Croatia? IT says clearly "Macedonian". Not to mention that the same author wrote one of the most important books in the Macedonian history "For the Macedonian issues", again printed in Croatia, where it clearly talks about the Macedonian nation and non-Bulgarian origin.

All this was simply erased from the database. I didn't erase anything when editing these pages, I support the other side and I do not want to hide their facts. But why Wikipedia wants to hide our facts, which show that we are not a product of Tito's ambitions for the Aegean Sea. In Tito's time, the Yugoslav army was far superior in the region. If he wanted the Aegean Sea, he would get it very easily.

Many things in Wikipedia are very offensive for the nowdays Macedonians. Wikipedia simply ignores us, gives us a new name and supports the theories of denial of our existance, culture and history.

I will try to give you an example that includes with Mexico. I beleive that you know that the Maya civilisation was invaded by the Spanish kingdom. Spanish were ruling Mexico for centuries and millions of Spanish people moved at Mexican teritory. Later, after the liberation war, Mexicans formed its own country. Fact 1. Mayas were living in Mexico (same as Antique Macedonians). Fact 2. Spanish invaded them and great number of Spanish people moved to Mexico (The Slavs moved on the theritory of Macedonia and there was no reported fights or movements of people away from the teritory where the Slavs settled). Fact 3. Nowdays, everyone of the Mexican is aware that they are partly Spanish, but they still have Mayan origin (Wikipedia says that the people living in Republic of Macedonia are Slavs. When there was no reported resetling of the Antique Macedonians, how is possible they not to mix with the Slavs? It is a fact that the nowdays Macedonians are not same as the Antique Macedonians, but they certanly have a significant part of their genes. Same as I beleive that Greece has a part of their Genes, but they are definitly not their direct ancestors). Fact 4. Mexican speak Spanish. Reason: The Spanish culture was superior in that time. (The Antique Macedonians accepted the Helenic culture, including a variation of the Greek language. Reason: the Helenic culture was superior in that time. Everyone who knows at least little history will know that Hellenic and Greek are not synonims. Greek is nation, Hellenic is religion/culture. USA and England both speak English, both are mostly cristians, but they are SEPARATE nations. Aren't they? Same happens to Germany and Austria, or Serbia and Croatia, or Canada and France, or Brazil and Portugal, or the rest of Latin America and Spain)

And here is a comment about the claims of the Bulgarians, that the Macedonians are actually Bulgarians. If that is truth, I am going to kill myself. Bulgarians through the history made the worst for my nation. During the strugle of the Macedonian people for independence from the Turkish empire, at the end of the 19th and begginbing of the 20th century, the Bulgarians were the ones who killed the most of our revolutionaries, including 4 members of my close family which were members of the Macedonian revolutionary organization (VMRO). Whis is not something that I was told by Tito. My grandfather (the same grandfather from above) was in fact a member of the same organization. He personaly knew many of the revolutioners that Bulgarians claim are theirs, including 2 of the leaders: Goce Delcev and Gorce Petrov. They were Macedonians and they all gave their lives for free and independent Macedonia and they had nothing to do with Bulgaria. There was a part of them who were Bulgarians inserted in the organizations, who were actually the killers of the real Macedonian revolutioners, because it was in Bulgarian interest to weaken the organization, so they could take the lead in the organization and later put Macedonia in the hands of the Bulgarians. Thanks god, they did not succeed. Wikipedia claims that VMRO was pro-Bulgarian and the revolutioners were Bulgarian fighters. You suposed to see the face of my 94 year old grandfather when I told him your claims. Neurtal Wikipedia? I do not think so.

At the end I have to ask for Wikipedia NOT TO TAKE A SIDE IN THIS. I am not asking to remove the Greek and Bulgarian side of the story. But, why you ignore our claims, which are suported by many non-Greek and non-Bulgarian scientists and very largely through the web. There are just about 2-2.5 million Macedonians around the world. We do not have enought influence and strenght as Greece has, which is much more powerful and richer country than Macedonia. The Macedonian-Greek question is too hard and too complicated to solve. History can be interpreted in 1000 ways, especially on a teritory like the Balcany, where there are so many nations on so little space. Fortunately, DNA testings are getting more and more reliable and soon it will be possible to be used to acuratelly show the origin of our nations. I hope that then the denyal of me, my history, culture and existance will finaly stop. It is very disapointing that Wikipedia takes a part in all that.

With all the respect, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia is@on.net.mk

ALL the Macedonian history (the one that the Macedonians, the one that Wikipedia calls Macedonian Slavs) before the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Greek history. I am talking mostly about the Antient Macedonia. I do not claim that Macedonians (Macedonian Slavs in Wikipedia) have the exclusive right to this history. But, Greece can not have that right eighter. It is a history that this region shares and both, we (Macedonians) and Greeks have a part of our origin from those people. In the same time ALL the Macedonian history after the 6th century is given in Wikipedia as Bulgarian history. I am talking about the Wikipedia claims that in the 9th century the Macedonian Slavs got Bulgarized or assimilated by Greece, that in the 10th century Macedonia become a center of Bulgaria (which is not truth, because there are 1000s of hard proves and writtings found in Ohrid denying the Bulgarian claims), the tzar Samoil kingdom (which was everything than Bulgarian, because he had several fights with them and won in all and you can find again 1000s of proves in his fortress in Ohrod), then the Macedonian Ohrid Archbishopry which was clearly Macedonian and everything else than Bulgarian, with dressings and crowns with a completely different stile than the Bulgarian ones. Later Wikipedia claims that after 1018th Byzantine Empire makes Macedonia a Bulgarian province, but it doesn't say the reason for it (the Bulgarians were fighting at his side, so this was his reward towards them, something that will happen in the WW2, when the biggest part of Macedonia will be given to Bulgaria by the Germans. 3 of 4 sons of Samoil were actually latter killed by pro-Bulgarians Another reason is the wish of Vasili II to make a revenge towars Samoil and his people, with denying them, something that Wikipedia does NOW). Then, Wikipedia claims that the Ottoman Empire was seeing us as Bulgarians, which is completely not truth. You have incredible written archives in Turkish museums for this, so you can make a search by your own. All the Macedonian uprisings were characterised as Macedonians. Even the after-capture execution of the leaders was taking place in Skopje, the biggest town in the teritory of Macedonia and not in Sofija, which was the Bulgarian biggest town. Wikipedia says that the following Macedonian history is Bulgarian: IMRO, Ilinden Uprising in Krusevo (where the only newspapers that write about it as Bulgarian uprising are the ones who didn't have their Journalists in the region and were using the Bulgarian sources, which in that time was already liberated, who wanted to show the uprising as their own. Why you don't read some Russian sources which have their journalists in Krusevo and Bitola at the time? Some of the grand sons and grand daughters of the revolutioners are still alive, so you might ask them what their grand-fathers were fighting for. The Krusevo Manifesto says that their goal is FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia. Why would their form their own Republic, if they wanted to be part of Bulgaria? All Wikipedia claims simply have no sence), Goce Delchev and the other revolutioners (NOTE: Goce Delchevs nephews which are still alive all spent half of their life proving Goce Delchev's belongding to the Macedonian nation. NOTE 2: Why would he fight for Macedonia's independence if he was Bulgarian? If he was Bulgarian, wouldn't he fight for unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria? Why was he betrayed by a Bulgarian, which resultet in his death in Banica 1903rd? You are corupting our biggest revolutioner, something that we keep as a saint). Wikipedia says that the "St Cyril and Methodius" high school in Solun, where Delchev studied was Bulgarian. How come, when no Bulgarians were living in Solun?... A prove for the Bulgarian, Serb and Greek ambitions to assimilate the Macedonians and take their teritory is the deals and fights they had in the both Balcan wars. They were all exterminating the Macedonians, burning their houses and grabbing their lands, but Wikipedia completely ignores all that. I (and many more) have a living family members who were witnesses of that time. Then, the WW2, when 2/3 of Macedonia was given to Bulgaria by the Germans. Why the hell 100000 Macedonians were fighting against the Bugarians? 25000 died in that war, again many members of my family. And Wikipedia says that we have Bulgarian origin. Why they didn't fight at the Bulgarian side if that was the case? Wikipedia later claims that our country (Republic of Macedonia) was given to us by Tito. What a lie!!! As I said 100000 Macedonians were fighting for freedom. If Tito made us be under the Serbs again, that wouldn't be freedom and 100000 heavily armed Macedonians would continue fighting for it. Even my 94 year old grand-father, who took a part in the WW2 fighting for the partizans, and who was looking at Tito as a saint agrees with this, that he wouldn't rest till he saw Macedonia free. Wikipedia even denies the exodus of 250 000 Macedonians from Greece, saying they were running away by their own. Who the hell will leave his house and land if he was not forced to? My other grand father's house was burned and he was shoot at in order to make him leave his hometown.

On some places Wikipedia says that this 'Bulgarian part' of the history might be Macedonian, but that is very well hidden so it even can hardly be noticed.

On the other hand, Wikipedia says that 'In 2000 several teenagers threw smoke bombs at the conference of pro-Bulgarian organisation 'Radko' in Skopje causing panic and confusion among the delegates'. Yes, that is completely truth. But in 1000s of years, you find one incident that we caused against the Bulgarians and you wrote it. What about centuries of incidents, murders, wars, assimilation made by the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians? What about the fact that Bulgaria and Greece do not allow the Macedonian parties in those countries to register and take a part in the ellections? This is something that was taken even to the European court. HOW CAN WIKIPEDIA IGNORE THIS??? BTW, Radko had just about 50 delegates and members. Most of them born in Bulgaria and moved latter in their life in Macedonia.

In this case, Wikipedia is only a tool in the Bulgarian and Greek propaganda of denying and stealing the Macedonian history, culture and existance. Just search the internet and you will see that this kind of 'history' can ONLY be found on pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek web sites. I am a living prove of the existance of the Macedonian nation. And that is not because I was told so by Tito. Macedonians were Macedonians far far before Tito. That is a fact that NOONE can change. How dare you deny everything what I am? How dare you to deny 1000s of killed people, who gave their lives for FREE and INDEPENDENT Macedonia?

Senceirly, Igor Šterbinski Skopje, Macedonia

JUST SEARCH THE WEB, YOU CAN SEE HOW WRONG WIKIPEDIA IS!!! ONLY THE PRO-BULGARIAN AND PRO-GREEK SITES HAVE THE SAME CLAIMS AS WIKIPEDIA. MOST OF THEM ARE ONLY CLAIMS THAT ARE CONFIRMED BY FALSIFICATED LETTERS. The TURKISH WERE SUPERIOR AT THAT TIME AND ARE A NEUTRAL SIDE. AND FAR BIGGER PART OF THEM IDENTIFY THE MACEDONIANS AS SEPARATE NATION, MACEDONIANS. WIKIPEDIA IS NEUTRAL??? I DO NOT THINK SO!!!



Igor, would you please stop flooding all FYROM-related pages on Wikipedia with your personal view on the issue? It is pointless to do so, I myself wouldn't consider a discussion with you worthwhile. If you wanted to discuss something, you would've done it the normal way. Yours is flooding, and a flooder's point of view is usually neglected, and I wouldn't even comment on your arguments. You see, FYROM and Macedonia is a controversial issue for everyone, especially in our region, everyone has a point of view, but by flooding you actually suppress the normal discussion. TodorBozhinov 11:42, 28 August 2005 (UTC)



While I definitely don't support flooding, I have to agree with Igor. This article has to be ultimate proof of the shortcomings od Wikipedia's policy. I hope we will be able to create a neutral article, satisfactory for all parties and FREE OF ANY POV. As it is, this article is nothing but pro-Bulgarian and pro-Greek propaganda worthy of a D.W. Griffith or Leni Riefenstahl movie.

Hmmmm, maybe we should make a Top 10 Articles Wikipedia admin's don't want you to see list. I hava an idea for No. 1. Pauderic 21:25, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

WIKIPEDIA I hope it is not an arena for propaganda: I am certain that most readers are interested in the truth and facts. So,In my research, I discovered that most major International Orginizations and Countries have recognized FYROM's existance ,INCLUDING GREECE,however,they have not yet recognized the name "Republic of Macedonia" pending resolution to the name dispute and objection with Greece. THE FOLLOWING ORGANIZATIONS HAVE NOT YET RECOGNIZED THE NAME "Republic of Macedonia".( in the member list of the orginizations below ,the name appears " Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" ( FYROM ) and NOT "Republic of Macedonia") UNITED NATIONS,NATO,EUROPEAN COMMUNITY, WORLD TRADE ORGINIZATION,WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION,OLYMPIC COMMITTEE, EUROVISION, and more.Long live the truth!!!!!The main article is full of lies and propagandas. I hope that the editors of Wikipedia are informed and courageous enought to side with the truth and correct this article,as they are loosing credibility.

Tony Vuccino

P.S. Name suggestion: North Macedonia ( As North Carolina ),New Macedonia ( as New England ) Nova Macedonia ( as Nova Scotia ) Slavic Macedonia ( as British Guiana ). Note: When you start a new corporation you cannot choose a name that someone else,is also using.Otherwise there is confusion. This new 2 million people new Country also used a Greek Symbol "the star of Vergina " on their flag. The international community forced them to changed it.THEY COMPLIED.Now they are using a Sun on their flag. OTHER FACTS: Greece is providing great economic assistance to FYROM. ( Greece's share is 65% of all foreign investments into the Country ) USA recognized the name "Republic of Macedonia" in return for a handfull of FYROM soldiers to go to Iraq and Afghanistan.

[edit] Different point of view

This entire issue would be much simpler if approached from a different point of view. Macedonia is first of all a geographical location. In modern times, a part of Macedonia belongs to the Republic of Macedonia, a part of it belongs to Bulgaria and a part of it belongs to Greece. Citizens of the (FormerYugoslav)Republic of Macedonia feel "macedonian" and citizens of Greece who live in the part of Macedonia that belongs to Greece feel "macedonian". That is simply because they BOTH are macedonians. The former are macedonians from North Macedonia and the latter are macedonians from South Macedonia (bulgarian people living by the borders who should feel macedonian are apparently from the north-eastern part of macedonia). There can hardly be any "true" descendants of people who lived 2,500 years ago in a place not completely isolated (and the balcan peninsula is definately not!). Things are as simple as that and everything would be much easier if people would just make use of the terms "north" and "south" when speaking of modern macedonia and its inhabitants instead of trying to find out who is the "true" macedonian and who is not.

[edit] Greek-centric

Greek identity should not judge by racial or ethical background. Do Chinese-Greek and African-Greek citizens are Greeks? Of course they are, its like people in US, Canada, and Britain. I dont believe that modern Greeks can claim that 100% of them are pure Greek genetically. After thousands years of invasion from Europeans and Asians, their gene pool are mixed. And this will continue in the future as their birth rate continues to drop, and they will force to adopt more flexible immigratnion policy. Also, it is wrong to claim that Alexander unify Greeks against Asian enemies. So, Greeks are good "civilized" and Asians are "barbarics" and uncivilized? It is purely unscholarly bias! Philip and Alexander's main intention was not to punish Perisans, but to conquer Perisa for their desire of power and wealth. It is simple as that! {{subst:199.126.243.110}}

It is not clear to me that the above is using a Talk page to discuss improvement to an article, or that it explains your removal of the Flag section. Jkelly 20:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Similar naming dispute section

Wow, that section is problematic. Not only does it violate WP:NPOV by uncritically presenting an argument that the situation is comparable in seriousness to, um, Luxembourg, it is also an egregious violation of WP:NOR in that it presents a completely uncited historical narrative. Is there any defense of this seciton within WP policy? Jkelly 03:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree. It's a wholly inaccurate comparison, but fortunately one that as far as I am aware no serious historian or political commentator has made, so it should be (and now has been) removed as original research. --Delirium 00:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

/-greek side of view-

Could the "macedonian" guys in this site please explain to me how can he expect us "nationalists" and "liers" greeks to accept :that they are part of an ethnik group called "macedonian" if this group was historically led by someone who was talking ancient :greek -> Alexander in xxx BC and slavs are recorded in the regional area of EUROPE in general in xxxX AD? You and your country, no :offense, are the product of certain political circumstances:
1. since the ancient slavs did not have any identity when they first apeared in the balkans they took on the history of the area  : and adopted the identity of the ancient greek kidgom of maKedonia, of course the totalitarian communist state later on did not  : want ethnik diversion as all totalitarians communists regimes those years did not. They expelled them, killed them or forced
them to convert to being serbs.
2. tito wanted to expand, as every dictator-totalitarian leader wants and used the "macedonian" propaganda to enforce teritorial
claims 30 or so years ago.
2. after the split of the united ygoslavia the "great powers" wanted stability in the region and granded u this name
3. nowadays they seem to want instability and they seem to enforce "multinational" countries in the balkan region, a region which
has been in "almost" contant ethnical conflict for the last decade, the last one (the revolt of ethnik albanians in
slavomacedonia) was avoided at the last minute.
4. MOST IMPORTANTLY name IS place in international diplomacy, those who know can understant this.
Noticed that i used the word SLAVOmacedonia which i thing is the most-descriptive name this country should have been given. It IS :regionally macedonia(in the ancient kind of way) but it is also populated with slavs. An ethicity which is VERY similar to the :other slavs in the balkan region. Ethnologically, in Europe for the sake of the argument, the french have DISTINCT characteristics :that distinguish them from the german lets say. The English have also distinct characteristics that distinuish them from the :spanish. In addition to that they have their own history which can lead to the definition of the terms spanish NATION, french :NATION e.t.c. This certain slavs majority, which by the way is less than 3/4 of the population in their own country DOES not have :distinct characteristics to distinguish them from the other slavs in the balkans NOR do they have a history behind, unless xx :years is a lot to you compared to xxxX years of the other european nations.
I was born in Greece, in particular thessaloniki, 26 years ago, and i have never seen a non-greek person anywhere in my country :claiming to be macedonian and NOT greek. I have seen Alexander the great and ancient Macedonian monuments with ancient GREEK :written on them. All the names used by macedonians to describe their army formations, e.g. phalanx -φαλαγγα, are greek and if :Alexander the great and all his people could be raised from the dead i could have a conversation with them and they could :understant me. I can see that for people from the USA for example this may seem a not-worthy argument but for me it is important :to speak a language that was first spoken not a thousand, not two thousand but 5000 years ago. As it is important to remember my :heritage and honour my history as the second most ancient alive nation in the planet after the chinese.
Maybe that is the reason why 1,500,000 people were gathered not once but 3 times in a row in the center of my city just to say to :the world "macedonia is greek". And by the way the population of thessaloniki around those years was less than 900,000 and of the :whole northern greece around 1,200,00 . Why should the other greeks from the south support us if they think that we are not the :same nation? Also why should people living in a region liberated just around 1912 believe that if they could not see all the :evidence that they speak the same language with ancient macedons and generally belong to this nation?
What i cannot understant about u people is how can you be so dogmatically assured about things when ALL the REAL evidence, and not :what they teach you at school, is against you. Even the undisputable fact that the years that Alexander the great lived the :climate itself could NOT allow a person so white-skinned to survive. The climate was the same as it is in SAHARA desert today.
You claim to be friends with us but there are articles (linked to this page as well) which are not only offensive but false.
There are articles all over the net saying that modern greeks are not direct descentents of ancient greeks, all based in the :assumption that there never was a real greek state in ancient times. Also slavomacedonians say that for years after that the greeks
were under the rule of foreign nations and they were "changed". First of all Kidgoms and landowners all over history existed in ALL
nations around the world, e.g. during the middle ages around europe. Secondly the roman empire like all great empires during those :time did not convert the people in their territory like the Ottomans did in later time. Finally the ottomans did want to convert :the people in their territory under rule to the muslim regligion, and thats why the greeks in the area were revolting constantly, :and not only at 1821. The first revolt happened in MACEDONIA(chalkididki) and the people wanted to be freed by the ottomans rule :and :be called greeks not "macedonians". So the turkish brought over ottomans from asia to live there which never did accumulate :into the population of the area because they were of a different religion. We greeks, along with the jewish, were very self-aware :and "unmixing" with other nations, some may call it snobish...
Finally around those years 1453-1900 the population of the area was 1/3 GREEK, 1/3 jewish and 1/3 ottomans-muslims, where were U?
The greek nation was named "greek" by the name of the ottomans called us which literally means "slaves" or "lesser beings" in  :turkish.
Since the global community falsy registered as as that, as they did with you, does this mean that our own name Hellas or
hellenes is automatically proof that we are not descentants of ancient greeks?
How is it possible for you people to say that you are descentents of alexander the great? isn't this claim MUCH MORE false compared
to our "claim" of being descentants of ancient greeks. At least we speak the same language with our ancient godfathers do u?
Finally i ask all people reading this, if they have met any greeks during their lifetime could they tell the difference by their
own facial or body characteristics if they lived in north or south greece?
I have studied in UK for my degree and i can tell you this, we (greeks) were like the fly in the milk! reagardless of geographical
origin.
P.S. there is no single truth only opinions and they too are biased...
just a dissapointed makedonas, please take no offence by the capitalisation, just emphasis.
sorry for the long post and the flooding, but u people do not include macedonia in the ancient greece history, is that normal?
or do u thing that there is a historical argument to the ANCIENT maKedonia as well?

-greek side of view- /

[edit] FYROM is not acknowledged acronym. It is just Greek POV

Talk:Republic_of_Macedonia#Change_of_FYROM_to_.22The_former_Yugoslav_Republic_of_Macedonia.22

[edit] Correct article, but mostly irrelevant content

This article offers nothing of value on the realations between Skopje and Athens, Tirana, Sofia, etc... Are there really no serious citizens of the Republic who can give a correct profile on the country's foreign relations?Politis 15:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately there are few Macedonian editors and they are too busy "defending" the articles from nationalistic attacks. Furthermore most "Macedonian" articles are often burdened with all kinds of stuff but lack "normal" informations. But I will try to collect information concerning this page and improve it. --Realek 20:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POLL: Introduction for Republic of Macedonia article

Given ongoing discussions and recent edit warring, a poll is currently underway to decide the rendition of the lead for the Republic of Macedonia article. Please weigh in! E Pluribus Anthony | talk | 01:04, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Македонија

First of all, I was shocked that after typing Macedonia in the Wikipedia search box, I wasn't automatically redirected to the Republic of Macedonia page. There should be an automatic redirect, or at least put Republic of Macedonia as the term number 1, and not 2.

A huge part of Macedonia was given to Greece by world powers after WWII. Almost no Greeks ever lived there. The "Greek" Macedonia has only been a part of Macedonia for these 60 years, I think the Republic of Macedonia represents Macedonia better than the region given to Greece.

Its fact, not opinion, that the Greeks don't even want to give Macedonia the right to use their ancient name, so that Macedonia won't ask for their territories back. Macedonia is the land of Macedonians, it has always been like that, just because they lost a part of their territory, you can't erase history. MACEDONIA SHOULD REDIRECT TO REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA, and then put "Macedonia redirects here, for other uses...". It's the right thing to do. --serbiana - talk 22:55, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Boris, read Macedonia (region) carefully. The "historical" region of Macedonia is a myth, and was invented by propagandists. To claim that Macedonia was divided is an anachronism, and as H.R. Wilkinson says that it defies definition. This perception of the "division" of a single area emerged as a historical hindsight. Furthermore, Greece annexed Aegean/Greek Macedonia after the Treaty of Bucharest, 1913, long before the WWII. Greece holds 51% of the present-day region called Macedonia, so it represents Macedonia better. In it is located Alexander the Great's birthplace, his capital city, and is where the Vergina Sun was discovered in 1977 (the fact that it was found on Greek soil enabled Greece to copyright it with UNPO so that FYROM could not legally use it on their flag like they once did). --Tēlex 16:01, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone.I hope that this discussion-"wiki-podium" shall lead to a noble and fair 'unofficial',at least,solution.First of all i was shocked that u were shocked by the fact above..!just the fact,that wikipedia redirects u to a relevant list,strengthens its own neutrality and,if not anyone else(who doesn't really care at all about the whole thing except for the practical side of things!),u shouldn't ignore that there actually IS a controversy on the name macedonia and of course not a final decision has been taken...
I think u should know that in antiquity ONLY Greeks-or more correctly people of the hellenic tribes could participate in the Olympic Games...and guess what?Macedonians took part too!They were actually very strong athletes too!REMEMBER:the ancient Olympic Games were EXCLUSIVELY for HELLENES to participate!so it would be a mere travesty to question the 'hellenicness' of ancient macedonians adding also other SCIENTIFICALLY historic facts that are mentioned by someone else above..Of course i'm not implying that my gene pool is the same as that of ancient macedonians but a Greek person is entitled to refer to them as his ancestors.they spoke GREEK for Christ sakes!there's a whole heritage along!!!Whatever finally happens that won't EVER change!insisting on just macedonia for your state's name means simultaneously an usurpation of this heritage...i don't understand why slavomacedonians isn't enough for you people!You are a slavic nation!You spaek a slavic language!You came here AGES after!I guess after all i do understand why.....!!u really want to be heirs of macedonians(ancient) to justify your (cultural)existence as a nation...u can't deny this fact after having the AUDACITY to use the Vergina Sun for your flag!An emblem that can only be seen in GREECE!!!where did u people find that??!...that really was a strike under the belt!
Anyway i think the right thing is when referring to macedonians is NOTHING else but to the ANCIENT macedonians.(CLOSURE!)The Greek side should be aknowledged as Grecomacedonians and yours,of course,as Slavomacedonians.
  But the point is: MACEDONIA IS GREEK!!

[edit] Not just Greek terminology

Here is the US state department using the terms Macedonian and Slavomacedonian on an equal basis (for the people), and they also speak of a Slavomacedonian dialect. Here and here we have Bulgarian sources calling people "Skopian". --Tēlex 15:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

*Sigh* You really hate them, don't you?--Aldux 15:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I don't, and hope for a settlement of this issue as soon as possible. Any settlement (including international recognition of the constitutional name, although this is extremely unlikely to ever happen) will do. I just don't like people painting the Greece as the ogre of this whole affair. --Tēlex 15:52, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Aldux, this is preposterous and impossible to prove. Unless you suggest us combing the Internet so see who uses what (it would only take a few years :p) I don't see on what you are basing it. We don't know how it is used (we only know that it is used), the article should state that. Anything else is POV pushing. --Tēlex 16:05, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The point is that for everybody except Greeks and maybe Bulgarians, this is simply obvious. When I open a paper or read a magazine or a book I won't find "Repubblica di Macedonia"; as for FYROM, the fact I don't even now how they say it in Italian tells enough of his usage. I'll find Macedonia, yes, and will immediately connect it to the RoM.--Aldux 16:23, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
I concur with Aldux. I don't see Greece as the "ogre" in this, but they're still likely to lose this dispute; no, they already *have* lost it de facto, since nearly everyone calls the RoM simply "Macedonia"... —Nightstallion (?) 12:16, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of countries recognizing one name or another

Can anyone supply info/link about wich countries recognize Macedonia with the "RoM" name and witch with the "FYROM" name? Alinor 16:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cut of "Transnational issues"

I just cut the following: The country is a major transshipment point for Southwest Asian heroin and hashish. It is also a minor transit point for South American cocaine destined for Europe.

Although most criminal activity is thought to be domestic and not a financial center, money laundering is a problem due to a mostly cash-based economy and weak enforcement (no arrests or prosecutions for money laundering to date).

...as there is no source provided. Does anyone have a reference for this? Jkelly 23:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

CIA WorldFact book most probably is the source. 199.64.72.252 10:31, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naming dipute

How about creating a new article for Republic of Macedonia naming dispute? This section is getting a bit big for this article. AndrewRT - Talk 15:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It seems that this is already done - Macedonia naming dispute. But I can't find nowhere in the articles or links to them a full list of the "106 countries that have recognized the country under that name". 212.36.8.100 10:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I think that we should edit "List of countries and entities not yet formally recognizing the country" article . In the past 3 monts Paraguay ,Suriname and Swaziland recognized Republic of Macedonia as Republic of Macedonia . Also Canada recognized Macedonia as Republic of Macedonia ,before that they called us Former bla bla bla Republic of Macedonia . So ,may I edit the article and erase that 3 countries ? (Paraguay ,Suriname and Swaziland) It will be my pleasure:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mo1981 (talk • contribs) 12:07, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is one article about that issue.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.news.macedonia/browse_thread/thread/15da2075c8f45bbe/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mo1981 (talk • contribs) 12:10, 8 January 2008 (UTC)