Talk:Foreign relations of the Republic of China

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[edit] Name of article

I am moving this article from foreign relations of Taiwan to foreign relations of the Republic of China. This will mean that the title is inconsistent with political status of Taiwan, but that is okay because the two articles address different concepts: the article foreign relations of the Republic of China addresses the international affairs of a state or state-like entity that both others and itself calls the Republic of China, while the article political status of Taiwan (which is named correctly) addresses the disputed political status of an island. In fact, foreign relations of Taiwan is a POV title, because it implies that Taiwan is a sort of state entity (and thus sanctioning the proposed Republic of Taiwan), which neither the PRC nor the ROC (at least officially) claim. Reading this article, the article is not about the foreign relations of a "Republic of Taiwan", but rather the foreign relations of a "Republic of China" (indeed, "ROC" is the preferred term to "Taiwan" throughout the article). States who are dealing with the entity described in this article name the entity they are dealing with the "Republic of China"; even the PRC calls the entity the "Republic of China", even if the PRC does not recognize it as a legitimate government. (Yeah, I realize the above paragraph has some stilted speech, but I am trying to write a paragraph that is NPOV and doesn't take any of the various positions on this issue.) —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 21:07, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

The first sentence of this article makes it clear that "Republic of China" refers to the government that is currently based in Taiwan, not the government based in mainland China. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 21:11, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Concerning Vanuatu's Recognition

According to this BBC link, Vanuatu has reversed its decision to recognize the ROC as a country after the government there changed. -anon

[edit] Grenada's switch

This BBC story says that Grenada switched its diplomatic recognition. I'm not the person who reverted the changes but here is the link to back his/her decision. -anon

[edit] ROC: an illegitimate government of China

From 1949 through 1971 PRC was an illegitimate government of China. ROC was recognized by most states in the world as the sole legitimate government of China during that period, although the number was decreasing by years. UN General Assembly Resolution 2758 recognized PRC as the sole legitimate government of China. Since only one government can represent a UN member state(in this case, China) at the same time, ROC was replaced by PRC.

There is a clear evidence for this: check out UN website:

http://www.un.org/Overview/growth.htm

According to this table, there was no member state expelled from UN since its foundation. ROC was replaced by PRC as a government representing China as a UN member state in 1971.

According to international law regarding succession of governments, ROC has been succeeded by PRC in all it's rights, possessions and obligations, including Taiwan since 1971.

Siyac 18:54, 8 July 2005 (UTC)

there was a discussion about the name ROC on TV in Taiwan, it amused me abit so i thought i share it. the commentator make the ROC case very simple: "the name ROC cannot be use in PRC, US or any other nation EXCEPT within Taiwan! Despite the taboo, neither US or PRC will allow the name ROC to be drop; the simple reason for keeping ROC it to imply the civil war was not over and Taiwan is not a country but a seperatist state" ROC maybe illegitimate, yet you cannot change it because that would be even MORE illegitimate... they ended it with "how are you going tell the kids in school what Taiwan is?" (-_-") Akinkhoo 12:53, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-1970s foreign relations of the ROC

The ROC came into existence since 1912. Why the pre-1970s history is not mentioned at all in this article? That part of history is currently not covered by any article. — Insta ntnood 19:49, August 24, 2005 (UTC)

Simply because this article was once about Taiwan, and not on the ROC. Aggresive attempts to change the titles and so on seem to be unaccompanied by work to update the page content itself. Meanwhile, mind explaining this edit, which switches the spelling of Macau [1] to Macao [2]?--Huaiwei 15:34, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

Prior to my edit there was only one occurance of the word "Macau", that I did not notice. When I typed I usually typed -o. Please help standardise within the same article when it's necessary and appropriate. ~~As for the scope of this article, I found no record that this article was ever moved from foreign relations of Taiwan to the present title.~~ — Insta ntnood 16:37, 2 November 2005 (UTC) I've found the move record. Although some may not agree that foreign relations of the ROC on mainland to be included in this article, I believe the foreign relations of the ROC in the 1950s to the 1970s should be included. — Insta ntnood 18:39, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

At this point in time, I dont think I want to bother pondering whether I should give you the benefit of the doubt over your claims of ignorance, given the impressive track record you have. I would think you need better explaination then that, before I start massively un-doing your unabating exercise in using wikipedia to advance your agendas and viewpoints. And I am certainly glad that you found out how to read the edit history page. For someone who has been fighting to use ROC over Taiwan and wanting to mass rename pages, I would expect you to then make the effort to add ROC-related information here instead of complaining that information is missing.--Huaiwei 04:41, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I was using special:logs to look for the move, and surprisingly there was no record there. As for pre-1970s foreign relations, I asked here before going ahead, since some people might strongly oppose to include pre-1949 stuffs. As a matter of fact I have already started the history section two days ago. — Insta ntnood 06:29, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

I dont see why you need to be so adventurous when something as simple as the edit history can be equally useful for this purpose. Thank you for finally introducing content two days ago, considering your first complain was made three months ago. Meanwhile, I am slightly concerned over your introduction of content over relations with the PRC. I do hope you exercise great care in writing on an issue as sensitive as this.--Huaiwei 07:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

Agree it's sensitive, nevertheless it's still the external relations of the ROC. Same for the relations between the ROC and Mongolia, that whether it's truly "foreign" or not is debatable. — Insta ntnood 07:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "generally excluded"

I put the word generally before excluded about the applicability of the mainland area law to HK. There are (article 60 is the most explicit) places in the law that deal with mixed HK/MO/Taiwan/mainland dealings (citizenship, various passport holders, taxes on income earned through the regions, investment, mixed partnerships, two hop travel, etc) when the other laws Taiwan has about the mainland need to be looked at. HK is excluded from the definition of "mainland area" but the non-applicability of the mainland law is not that cut and dried. SchmuckyTheCat 21:59, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Article 60 talks about what if any part of the law is suspended. There's no situation prescribed in the statute that Hong Kong and Macau are considered part of the "Mainland Area". The applicability of the "Statute Governing the Relations Between Peoples of the Taiwan Area and the Mainland Area" is limited to situations when residents, organisations or other institutions of the "Mainland Area" is involved. That does not mean Hong Kong and Macao are included in the "Mainland Area" in those situations. If you read what I've written in the article carefully, you'll know I actually wrote "Hong Kong and Macao are excluded from the "Mainland Area".". — Insta ntnood 16:56, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] ROC to PRC transition

It is interesting witch states of these that recognised PRC have had relations with ROC before 1949 and for how long (for example USA from 1912). Currently very few have such notes. Alinor 07:44, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Bhutan? This contradicts Foreign relations of Bhutan. Do you have a source? -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 14:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, seems strange to me too, but Bhutan is not here: Dates of establishment of diplomatic relations with the People's Republic of China and also the article that you mention: Foreign relations of Bhutan - reads the following: "Bhutan has no diplomatic relations with its northern neighbour, the People's Republic of China". It says also that Bhutan has consulates in Hong Kong and Macau, but nevertheless - no relations with PRC itself. Strage, realy... I will put Bhutan back in the list of no ROC/PRC relations, agreed? Alinor 11:09, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh well Fine with me. It's nice to get a source so articles don't contradict one another or themselves... -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 14:05, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Micronations

Are there any majior micronations that recognise the ROC? -Dr.-B 08:11, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mongolia

The claim that all 24 nations with relations with the ROC recognize its claim to Mongolia seems most bizarre; I do not believe that the United States did, even before 1973. At a minimum, it requires a source; and an official ROC source should be menitoned in the text. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:33, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] States Recognize the ROC as the Sole Legitimate Government of China?

The article states that "The 25 states which have official diplomatic ties with the ROC all recognize it as the sole legitimate government of the whole of China including Mongolia," yet when St. Lucia recently restored ties with Taiwan the government explicitly announced that "This action should not be construed as a severance of the relationship with the People's Republic of China". See http://bararchive.bits.baseview.com/archive_detail.php?archiveFile=./pubfiles/bar/archive/2007/April/26/Regional/37274.xml&start=0&numPer=20&keyword=taiwan&sectionSearch=&begindate=1%2F1%2F1994&enddate=12%2F31%2F2007&authorSearch=&IncludeStories=1&pubsection=&page=&IncludePages=1&IncludeImages=1&mode=allwords&archive_pubname=Daily+Nation%0A%09%09%09.

This seems to suggest to me that St. Lucia does not recognize Taiwan as the sole government of China, since it still recognizes the People's Republic. As a result, I have reworded the quoted statement to read "Nearly all of the 25 states... recognize it as the sole legitimate government of the whole of China including Mongolia."

Konekoniku 01:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Lucia

Regarding the previous concerns of user DDTing, Saint Lucia's restoration of ties with Taiwan has been confirmed by the government; see http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/front/archives/2007/04/26/2003358246

Konekoniku 01:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to That-Vela-Fella for making the corrections earlier. However, the latest news reports confirm that the restoration of ties has been finalized: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/05/01/asia/AS-GEN-Taiwan-China-St.-Lucia.php http://news.monstersandcritics.com/asiapacific/news/article_1298587.php/Taiwan_and_St_Lucia_sign_communique_on_resuming_ties Thus I have reverted the changes, as the notes & qualifications are now unnecessary.

Konekoniku 05:16, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Does seem that the one who changed it now again looks to be correct with the article here: http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-05/05/content_865879.htm That-Vela-Fella 22:19, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

What I mean is, St. Lucia offered to maintain ties simultaneously with both governments (see various links above, other news reports on the issue), it was the PRC who declined. Thus I don't believe St. Lucia recognizes Taiwan as the sole government of all of China – otherwise it would make no sense to offer to continue recognizing the PRC – and making an absolute statement like "all" should require certainty on our part. Konekoniku 22:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] +886 TEL prefix

The article doesn't say how one would call Taiwan from China then. Also mention if postal codes, and highway numbers are reserved. Jidanni 01:31, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The ROC in the Pacific

This article could do with a section on the ROC's diplomatic involvment among Pacific Island nations. There is a constant diplomatic battle there between the ROC and the PRC, which small Pacific nations have come to use to their advantage, switching their diplomatic support to the side which offers them the most infrastructure and development aid. This has attracted fairly significant levels of media attention, and I've been collecting news articles on the topic for the past few months. When I have time (sigh), I'll write a section about it. Aridd (talk) 14:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Map

The map shows the countries with official diplomatic ties to Taiwan. The article mentions that many countries that do not officially recognize Taiwan maintain unofficial ties through de facto embassies. A map showing these countries, or showing them on the same map as the official ties but in a different color, would be informative. Readin (talk) 15:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Split

This article should be split into pre-Civil War and post-Civil War articles. The Republic of China's relations with the Soviet Union and the United States, for example, changed completely once it lost it's mainland teritory. This would also help to organize realted articles by time frame. This is smilar to what we've done for Sino-German cooperation (1911–1941), Soviet-German relations before 1941, or Japanese–Soviet relations and Japan-Russia relations. - Kevlar67 (talk) 19:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's a good idea, mainly because the pre-1949 section would be so short and the post-1949 section wouldn't see any significant decrease in length, and the article isn't overly long anyway. If we were to separate it because of the changes of 1949, wouldn't the same logic apply to the 1970s then Chiang's representatives were kicked out of the UN and many countries stopped officially recognizing the ROC, arguable a far more significant change to ROC's foreign relations? Readin (talk) 20:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] List of countries that maintain unofficial relations with the ROC

Anyone know where to find a list of countries that maintain unofficial relations with the ROC? For example, the US has an unofficial embassy in Taiwan called AIT with an official ambassador called the AIT Chairman. What other countries have similar relations? A table showing the name of the country and the names of the unofficial embassies would be informative. Readin (talk) 20:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

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