Talk:Foreign involvement in the Spanish Civil War

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[edit] "General" Eoin O'Duffy

Removed quotation marks from the General of General Eoin O'Duffy. He held the rank of General in both the IRA and the Irish Free State. Don't know why his title was in quotations.

[edit] Jews in the International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War

Perhaps I was wrong in doing so, and I am open to criticism on this, but I deleted a number of the references to the Jewish brigades in the civil war. Not only are the numbers woefully inflated, they also lack reference and are in complete opposition with already sourced data. I would say, anyone wishing to establish those numbers ( I believe 6500-8000 ) as fact should find a respectable citation to back up such a claim. Following those statistics was also a troubling, and entirely subjective interpretation of the Jewish importance in the war. While I have nothing against the Jewish people, an article on the Spanish Civil War is certainly no place to advance ethnic or national causes. Any attempt to levy one single groups importance over the rest is downright disrespectful to all those who died fighting. I would also like to add that I had to remove some sentences regarding the supposed brutality of both the POUM and the anarchists. None of these claims are cited and the wording was frankly unintelligible. I would challenge anybody to find a reference that states either of these groups were overtly more brutal in their methods than the nationalists, or the Stalinist affiliated popular front parties. --Indiefilm45 08:28, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jews in the International Brigades in the Spanish Civil War

I think that the number of 6500-8000 Jews in the International Brigades is vastly inflated. I have never seen a number that high. Hugh Thomas puts the number of Jews at about 3,000 and that would be a little less than 10% of all the people who fought in that military formation. What is the source for such an inflated number? I checked out the citation of The Naftali Botwin Company, By Mitch Abidor and it is an internet source without citation. I have read several books on this Confict and none mentions such a high proportion of Jews.

Ethnically such would be almost impossible. The French, Italians and Germans furnished about 50% of the membership of the International Brigades and few Jews lived there as a proportion of the population. The most heavily Jewish countries that furnished large numbers to the International Brigades would be Poland and the United States. That would be a total of about 8,000 volunteers from both countries. The American volunteers were heavily Jewish, about 1/3 of the total, I would say. Polish volunteers were probably heavily Jewish also, but probably about the same proportion 1/3. That would be about 2700 Jews from those two countries. The rest of the countries had few Jews in the population except perhaps Hungary.

I would hope that proof be submitted or the new materials withdrawn.

GenghisTheHun 01:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)GenghisTheHun

[edit] Some rewriting needed

Under the 'American' heading is this 'The United States furnished 2,800 men of whom 900 were killed' then is proceeds to talk about European fighters?


"2,000 British served with 500 being killed. There were also 1,500 Czechs, 1,500 Yugoslavs, 1,200 Canadians, 1,000 Hungarians and 1,000 Scandinavians about half of whom were Swedes. The rest came from 53 countries.[14] Perhaps 3,000 of the volunteers were Jewish.[15]"

i moved it to under european but the article could do with more on american fighters. --Neon white 19:57, 27 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Consolidated Articles

The main article of Spanish Civil War was criticized as being too bulky. I moved the foreign intervention part of that article here and broke it down into general headings. It will continue to need re-working to harmonize and reorganize the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GenghisTheHun (talk • contribs) 14:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Forgot to sign!

GenghisTheHun 14:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)GenghisTheHun

[edit] Use of Thomas as a source

I checked Hugh Thomas's book. To arrive at his Axis figures he cites sources such as the NYTimes, Count Ciano, the official (Francoist) telling of the history, etc. and I rather get the impression he gave up on the matter leaving it for the next generation of historians with access to source documents. I believe that the matters of German aid (at least) have been settled most accurately in Leitz, Whealey, with Howson giving the latest overall of the democracies. I will consider how best to introduce the latest material to the article but removing much of Thomas would seem in order. One thing belonging to Thomas's book which didnt appear but perhaps should is the reproduced German attache communique. I will look into how to do that. Fluffy999 11:39, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably something like this
Comparison of light tanks in the Spanish Civil War
Date Nation Aircraft Tanks Trucks Material(Tons) Ammo(Tons) Misc
1936 September 3 Soviet - - - - - 500 1000 -
October 16 Soviet, 1 Spain 25, - 66, - -, - 58, - 240, - 2150, - 4850, - 3414 tons petrol, 450 tons clothing, 100 tons medical stores
But dont know how to make them appear inline removing the need for comma use. Fluffy999 14:38, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Thomas as a source for Republican materials

I agree that Thomas is no longer the best source at least for materials to the Republic. Since the Iron Curtain archives have opened, much work was been done in that area. I think Gerald Howson is better than Thomas. I am working on his book right now. I am appalled at how much the Republic was swindled by the arms dealers and by Stalin. The problem that the Republic had, in one resepect at least, was that it had the cash. The Nationalists went on credit. I will work with you to get the proper figures. It appears that the Republican figures will go down. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by GenghisTheHun (talk • contribs) 17:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

GenghisTheHun 17:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)GenghisTheHun

Its all good. I will add this to Project Spain, Germany now to get a rating. After making a lot of additions to the Legion article it got a start rating, which is strange but thats seems to be how the game works- get your rating before additions, then after making additions seek a higher rating. Noticed a lot of piss-poor B rated military articles so that must be how they gamed the system. Fluffy999 15:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Requested reviews from projects where I know Governments were involved, adding for international brigades would be too much. Fluffy999 15:49, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Suggestion--some of the deleted material should be reinserted

I think that this material is very relevant to the question of aid to the Republic and should be reinserted. Most countries of the world backed away from the Republic, in a large number of cases because of the atrocities and this was extremely harmful to the Republican cause. Here is the part that was removed.

"Many in these countries were also shocked by the violence practiced by anarchist and POUM militias - and reported by a relatively free press in the Republican zone - and feared Stalinist influence over the Republican government. Reprisals, assassinations and other atrocities in the rebel zone were, of course, not reported nearly as widely."

GenghisTheHun 15:31, 9 April 2007 (UTC)GenghisTheHun


[edit] Edits 29 Apr

  • Standardised references and footnotes.
  • Updated some statistics from Thomas (2001)
  • Consolidated American and European volunteer sections. (Many Americans and Canadians were exiles and fought with nation-of-origin battalions)
  • Changed Lincoln BRIGADE to battalion throughout (once :)
  • "Use of the Spanish Civil War as weapons testing ground" - edited for brevity.
  • There remains a fair amount of duplication. (For instance, stuff on the Irish Blueshirts and the Portuguese appearing into two places}.
  • Best, I think, to consolidate into two sections: Nationlist and Republican, which is what I've started to do.
  • No Conclusions section. Was anyone planning one?

All the best, Roger 05:30, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rio Tinto

British involvement had a focus on maintaining British economic interests in Spain alive, including Rio Tinto mine. Clearly Anthony Beevor, a first grade hack, was unaware of that, otherwise whoever was brain dumping from his book would have inserted it to the article. By the way, where did the idea of a "League of Nations Non-Intervention Committee" come from? LONations had nothing to do with it. Oh look, its cited to Anthony Beevor 8|

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[edit] WikiProject class rating

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[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 04:55, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet Aid issue

Could you post references, footnotes, and quotes about Soviet Union aid in material... To the exact number which is written:

These arms included 1,000 aircraft, 900 tanks, 1,500 artillery pieces, 300 armored cars, hundreds of thousands of small arms, and 30,000 tons of ammunition (some of which was defective)

And until then, could you remove that fact from the public's eyes.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.46.171.113 (talk) 23:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)