Talk:For Whom the Bell Tolls

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Contents

[edit] Clean Up

I have started to clean up this article. It is still a major mess, but I have removed the worst of the non-sequitors, illiteracy, original research, and random speculative statements. So far, I have:

  • amplified and corrected the language and narrative style section;
  • changed the headings structure slightly
  • cleaned up the "popular culture" references section (which were confusing the Donne with the novel), cleaned up the section on actual events;
  • added in the proper links & improved the historical references to the Spanish Civil War.
  • cleaned up the lead

The plot outline, imagery, etc... still need to be reworked to an encyclopedic standard. This still reads too much like a student essay.

To do:

  • publication history
  • critical reception
  • improve text sourcing/correct note format
  • rewrite plot summary
  • change character list
  • rewrite section on main themes and imagery

    Eusebeus 11:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] too many links

Under 'Main Themes' Every word is linked. This should be corrected. 134.106.199.5 13:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources?

Is this a summary of critical literature, or someone's original critical reading of the novel? It seems to alternate between the two, sometimes reading like a paper, making a claim and supporting it with a quotation from the novel, and then there will be parts like-

"Some have said that it was a signal of him giving in to the demands of Hollywood directors who wanted books that can be easily used as scripts, while others consider it a signal of him disassociating himself from the protagonist, maybe because of superstition (it brings bad luck to write about one's own end), but more likely because of his inner struggle that will be explained later (Pablo )."

-which reads like secondary research (maybe that is why it's needlessly oblique?).

I'd prefer if whoever wrote the majority of this content could clean it up his/herself, since (s)he'd know where things came from, but in the meantime I'll work on putting together a more encyclopedic, less close-reading, style article.--Hal 19:37, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Question about language in the book

My copy of the book has frequent passages along the lines of "I unprintable in the milk of your mothers." Was the original novel self-censored in this fashion or is my copy a bowlderized version? Just curious.

Yes, the original is like that. It is quite typical of Hemingway's writing. (Themusicinmyhead 07:07, 24 November 2005 (UTC))
I assume that it's also a function of the times. Publishers in the 1940s might have refused to print a book with that much profanity in it had Hemingway not substituted for the expletives. | Klaw Talk 17:19, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Hemingway did this partly due to the times and partly because he believed that any translation of spanish to english obscenities would lose their effect, he states this in an interview.

[edit] Donne quote

The Donne quote was incomplete and inconsistently formatted. I changed it to a transcription in modern English, since attempts to reproduce the original "faithfully" without using photographs are probably doomed to failure. One example of trying to reproduce the original (different from what the article had) is

No man is an Iland, intire of it selfe; every man is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine; if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as well as if a Mannor of thy friends or of thine owne were; any mans death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankinde; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

Considering that spelling and formatting weren't quite as standardized in 1624 as they are now, there is probably little to gain from trying to be "exact" about this. 82.92.119.11 22:35, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Donne wrote in Modern English. . .

[edit] Introductory Material

I've reorganized the introductory material so that it's more consistent with other Wiki articles, and in a way which I think makes more logical sense. More specifically, I simply moved the material under "Plot Introduction" and moved it to the beginning of the article, after the introductory sentence -- there aren't any plot spoilers here so there should't be any problems. --Todeswalzer 23:05, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


How is "death" a theme!?

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[edit] Irony

I find the sentence "The view of suicide of Robert Jordan as a selfish act is ironic, given that Hemingway took his own life twenty-one years later." to be an over-symplistic analysis of both hemmingways writing and his own life. It is plainly not ironic considering that the character, and hemmingway as the writer of the character, fully understood the selfishness of the act but also,and most importantly, fully understood the reasons why a person might be led to this ultimate act. No irony is present in either the traditional of correct forms, Hemmingway did not foresee his own death by suicide and therefore no irony was meant (applying irony to a text years after it was writen is bad form) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.201.68 (talk) 04:26, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:ErnestHemmingway ForWhomTheBellTolls.jpg

Image:ErnestHemmingway ForWhomTheBellTolls.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:08, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Popular References

I have to questions some of the entries in the "References in Popular Culture" section. Hemingway didn't invent the phrase, so any use of it can't definitively be a reference to the book. It's just a handy metaphor for death. ASWilson 03:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Reference to Bombing of Guernica?

At the beginning of Chapter 8, several paragraphs note an extensive force of German Heinkel bombers, such as the ones used in Guernica, since the story also takes place around the months in which the Guernica attack occurred, could this be a reference to that? -Black Mage- 00:23, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

It would seem as if it were written for a class and just pasted here, at first glance. Where are the references for this article? Much of the materials from when this article was created back in 2002 still seem to be intact, but the only references are to the book itself, and to a version which no one seems to know. For example: "At the time the novel was published, it seemed as though he separated the narrator from the protagonist to become what he had always wanted to be: A big, omniscient and ubiquitous daddy who tells all the stories and who has everything under control." Okay, according to what reputable source? This is a mess of an encyclopedia article. --Tom (talk - email) 03:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I think the best thing to do is to just delete all the OR sections until sources can be found. --S.dedalus 00:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I dunno what this means

Quote: "A third-person selective-omniscient narrator direct conversations between the characters, and by extensive back-and-forth mental conversations within the mind of Robert Jordan." Perhaps someone could translate this into English? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PiCo (talk • contribs) 07:52, August 23, 2007 (UTC).


[edit] Regarding Robert Jordan

there is a line under references in popular culture that states

The late James Oliver Rigney Jr. (better known as Robert Jordan), the author of the popular "Wheel of Time" saga, dirived his pen name from the main character of For Whom the Bell Tolls.

however, look at the Robert Jordan page. he apparently has clearly stated that the above is not the case. I'll leave the quote there for now because im too lazy to verify it, but maybe someone should check and if valid remove the Robert Jordan section from thsi pages popular culture section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.149.112.34 (talk) 06:46, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too negative?

Although this article seems to cover all the important areas, I do feel that the tone of the piece is too negative consering the reputation of this book as one of the greatest of the century.

It seems that a few negative comments have been given more weight than they deserve. Especially here:

"Since its publication, the prose style and dialogue in Hemingway's novel has been the source of controversy and fairly negative critical reaction." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.78.21 (talk) 15:25, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

  • I put that in based on the contemporary reviews garnered by the novel, one of (the most important of) which is provided as an example. The article simply reflects the reality of the critical reception and is not a POV statement. Eusebeus 16:45, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
    • I see the citation, but that reviewer is talking rubbish. Criticisng this book for having "a strange atmosphere of literary medievalism" and for using workds like "thou". It's like criticism Star Wars for being unrealistic. I just don't think this opinion comes anywhere near to reflecting the thousands of great reviews and the fact it is heralded as a classic. It's POV of the reviewer and not reflective of the general status of this book. And what's more, it's a very silly POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.195.78.21 (talk) 17:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
      • lol. The reviewer is Edmund Wilson! Anyway, the point is to note the contemporary critical reaction and I think that this is a fair portrayal (see also the Pulitzer deliberations). If you can marshal evidence to the contrary, I look forward to seeing it, but i don't think it's POV to provide the critical reception, nor does such reception detract from its status as a literary landmark. I think you are confusing the historical context of its critical reception with an implied value judgment. Eusebeus (talk) 20:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:ErnestHemmingway ForWhomTheBellTolls.jpg

Image:ErnestHemmingway ForWhomTheBellTolls.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)