User talk:Folantin/Archive 2

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Contents 1 Award! 2 RfA thanks from Akhilleus 3 Grétry and Auber 4 French opera 5 Librettists 6 Email? 7 Meyerbeer in German opera 8 Thread on Geogre's talk page 9 Numa (opera) 10 Now you see it, now you don't . . . 11 Salieri et al. 12 L'amant jaloux 13 Woyzeck (1979 film) 14 SCISSORS 15 Polish opera 16 Reverting to character 17 List of important opera companies 18 Dramma per musica 19 Edit conflict on Opera talk page? 20 Opera talk page 21 Polish opera 22 Cześć, 23 polish opera cont. 24 Content arbitration 25 Stradelli 26 Stradelli finished 27 Mickiewicz/Chopin

[edit] Award!

I, Wolphii, commend this Laughpoint to you for putting "goths" back into persective [1]. Wolphii 18:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] RfA thanks from Akhilleus

Archive_2, thanks for your support in my successful RfA. As the picture shows, the goddesses have already bestowed my new weapons, which I hope to use to good effect. If you ever need assistance, or want to give me feedback on my use of the admin tools, please leave me a message on my talkpage. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grétry and Auber

Thanks for looking at these and adding titles. If we can at least put up viable/stand alone stubs for all of them that will be great.

I am also wondering about Auber's Haydée and Lestocq. Should we include them? i think the titles were added to the Opera corpus by an enthusiast, but there are no Grove articles and I can't find enough info on them to do a stub. What do you think? Maybe you have better refs than i do? Best. - Kleinzach 00:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your note - and work!

On a completely different subject, do you know anything about the blocking of Orbicle? There's a note on the project talk page. I don't know a lot about it - I just had a problem with an editor who started deleting sections of La muette de Portici because Orbicle had written some of it - but it looks like a witch hunt. - Kleinzach 09:54, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Will you be adding the new titles to The opera corpus? I won't be able to add much to Grétry and Auber - I've exhausted my information and the French WP hasn't got a lot of material. Buondelmonte has the books etc. Perhaps I'll try to get him involved. - Kleinzach 10:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] French opera

Have you finished this? Can we put it up for Good Article status? - Kleinzach 23:25, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. That's interesting information. Getting Parsifal accepted was very easy so I didn't know there was a problem. I was initially sceptical about Good Articles. Perhaps I should trusted my instincts betyter, Incidentally I have just had a 'discussion' with a bot owner on the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography who pointed out accusingly that we have no assessment system, so we may have to look at this again, if only for self-defence. - Kleinzach 15:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Librettists

I don't want to interfere with your scheme, but Auden wrote the libretto for Paul Bunyan without the assistance of Kallman (whom, I think, he hadn't met at that point) - shouldn't the Auden entry be like the Crozier one, with Kallman like the Forster one?.

Also, what about Britten's MND? The Viking has Pears and Britten as librettists (though they only wrote one line between them!). Best --GuillaumeTell 21:05, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

However, Britten and Pears "wrote" the libretto by selecting which bits of the original to use, and they discarded a helluva lot (or else it would have been as long as Götterdämmerung), so I actually think that they do deserve the credit, (with maybe a small mention for Shakespeare? Or not?).

Which brings us to the Apollinaire/Buechner can of worms. I note that Viking gives Poulenc as the librettist for Mamelles (and Debussy for Pelléas - Maeterlinck does get in, but only for Ariane et Barbe-bleu). Seriously, we need some sort of rule - which could be "follow Viking (or Grove)".

Anyway, excellent work so far. I'm off now for some whiskey and Ireland vs SL. --GuillaumeTell 21:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm cheating a bit by using my own completely arbitrary POV criteria: if one of the big guns sets it, it goes on, and only the big guns get mentioned. This will probably suffice as a rough sketch for his libretti, but I agree that a whole page devoted to his libretti is certainly not a bad idea.

That one isn't even so bad. I've got Grove open in another tab, and it's got lists of who set each of his libretti and when: most of them were set over 30 times. To be fair, they are great libretti: I enjoyed Il re pastore when I heard it at Royal Opera particularly. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 13:29, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

170? That's a lot. Wonder what he did in his spare time. Metastasio is great stuff: I've just learnt from Grove that his Artaserse libretto was last set in 1840, which is quite something. Best, Moreschi ^Talk 13:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Read and replied. Best, Moreschi ^Talk 15:08, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Email?

Hi. If possible I'd like to email you. Perhaps the easiest way to set this up would be via my own email connection on my Talk Page. Thanks. --Kleinzach 14:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Mail --Kleinzach 15:11, 29 April 2007 (UTC) + Kleinzach 16:17, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Replied. Moreschi ^Talk 14:15, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Replied--Kleinzach 02:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't say. JTB, come back, please, all is forgiven! Mail. Moreschi ^Talk 16:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Meyerbeer in German opera

Thanks for writing to me on this. I agree that were the article to be entitled 'Opera in German' then Meyerbeer would rate just a couple of sentences. But 'German opera' implies (to me, at any rate) a history of opera in Germany. In the latter case, Meyerbeer does become more important - first because of his influence in Berlin after 1842, second because of his influence on the young Wagner, thirdly because the grand opera he developed became 'the enemy' to Wagner and his followers. Perhaps indeed there ought to be, to get round this kind of thing, two cross-referenced articles, 'History of Opera in Germany' and 'Opera in German'. Anyway I would be happy for you to edit my comments on Meyerbeer as you think appropriate: but he does deserve a mention in both putative articles. Best regards --Smerus 19:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thread on Geogre's talk page

Some of the discussion about WP:BIOGRAPHY should be copied over to the WikiProject talk page, I think, as it is very relevant to what they are trying to do. WOuld you mind if I copied that thread over (including your comments)? Carcharoth 19:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Numa (opera)

Just a note to say that, in case you hadn't seen it, the result was Delete. I have yet to look at Bizet's "Lettres a un ami" (was it?), but will do so when next in Leeds. Meanwhile, Google Books tells me that there were printed references to this "work" in the early C20[2] - which doesn't, of course, mean that it ever existed! Copying this to Moreschi. --GuillaumeTell 18:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Now you see it, now you don't . . .

Thanks for catching some over-rapid categorization (Tarare, Oedipe à Colone). --Kleinzach 07:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Salieri et al.

We've got plenty of time to modify the August line-up if necessary. I went for SSS alliteration but also included Sarti (like Salieri) for his connection with Mozart. (He is quoted in Don Giovanni and Grove has articles on his operas.) If I remember rightly Sacchini/Piccinni are Gluck-Paris-related . . . Cherubini and Spontini would make a great pair - the latter is barely covered. But this is all about coverage - getting stubs started which otherwise might never be written. Almost every stub gets developed once created. There is even someone working on the Ricci brothers now! I hope we can find a balance between those who want to do major figures and those who want to do exotica. Anyway we can discuss this at the Talk page. --Kleinzach 10:40, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] L'amant jaloux

This is now being listed as Les fausses apparences on the opera navigation box. Do you want it changed, I wonder? --Kleinzach 10:20, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. BTW - as you are there! - I'd be grateful for your input on two Cfd here. Thanks. --Kleinzach 10:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Woyzeck (1979 film)

I reverted your blanking the talk page & left explanations for each of the tags there.SkierRMH 07:23, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Replied via email. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 10:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SCISSORS

You can if you want, though there's no reason to consider it failed or anything. I suppose we could always start it up again later, should we find ourselves with a slack week or so. The idea's not a bad one. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 09:00, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, the AMA seems to have been killed off via Death by Backlog. Probably a symptom rather than a cause, but it seems as though the Gotterdammerung of Esperanza has encouraged the breaking of more broken things. Something to be encouraged, I think. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 11:18, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polish opera

Hi, just a note to say if you are going to translate please post at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Opera#Polish_Opera_houses BEFORE you start otherwise we will get people doing the same thing... Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 19:15, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reverting to character

Just a note to say that you know who is reverting to character again, see Johannes Brahms today's history. Ciao. -- Kleinzach 00:53, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of important opera companies

This has now been tagged as original research. Any ideas? -- Kleinzach 07:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dramma per musica

I thought I'd do this here rather than on the Opera talk page. I've been involved in a lot of discussion about the term elsewhere (or rather attempts to make a pig-headed person see that it's ridiculous to use the term for Wagner's operas...). All that its originators actually meant in modern terms was "libretto". It's not "drama through music", it's "a play which is intended to be set to music". Eventually it became synonymous with opera seria. All this is in the Oxford Dictionary and Grove. Some of the libretti written for Rossini are termed dramma per musica. I keep meaning to do a WP article on this. Best. --GuillaumeTell 10:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit conflict on Opera talk page?

Just now, when I did a "Show preview" for a rather long post on the Opera talk page, it came up as an edit conflict, I think it was with your edit. I have heard these referred to many times, but this is the first time that I've had that happen. I started over, and it looks like your edit is there complete?, but I thought it would be courteous to check that nothing was lost. I apologize for the unintentional conflict. Cheers, Lini 15:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opera talk page

Please see the newest exchange and comment. Thanks. -- Ssilvers 23:09, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Polish opera

On 11 June 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Polish opera, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

--howcheng {chat} 23:37, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Good work I#ve been doing some work on polish opera also I stubbed a few of the operas by Stanisław Moniuszkoe.g Halka and started articles on some contemporary singers e.g Ewa Biegas - the sooner this encyclopedia covers all topics evenly and well the more respectable this site will become ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you" Contribs} 06:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks yes I totally agree there are absolutely loads of missing Central European opera singers -when I have time (I am currently compiling a complete List of American films with all the details on direcotr/cast etc by year) I'll will try to add some articles like the Ewa Biegas one. Keep up the good work anyway -your're Polish? If so I began compiling a List of Polish films -grossly underdeveloped -I don;t know if you have any knowledge of Polish film? ALl the best ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you" Contribs} 13:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah well keep up the new articles on Polish opera though! ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you" Contribs} 20:10, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cześć,

Bardzo się cieszę, że przetłumaczyłeś artykuł o polskich operach na en:. Jednakże, nawet (co widać) omijając nasze uwagi na PAnM, i tak jest po prostu źle, ponieważ największymi wadami artykułu są przede wszystkim: 1) niezrozumienie właściwych proporcji (kiedy która opera z jakiego powodu), 2) częste błędy merytoryczne dotyczące nawet stylu/epoki. Obawiam się, że art jest tak skażony, iż naprawić się go w zasadzie nie da; błędy które wykazaliśmy były tylko wierzchołkiem góry lodowej. Proponuję, jeśli chcesz go zachować, albo napisać w większości od nowa, jeśli masz lepsze źródła i się na tym znasz, albo - jeśli nie - drastycznie pociąć, zostawiając same suche fakty (nazwiska i tytuły), tak aby przynajmniej podstawowa warstwa merytoryczna była zachowana.

Przykro mi krytykować dobrą robotę, niestety jeśli my na pl:wiki nie będąc ekspertami w dziedzinie opery polskiej byliśmy w stanie wyłapać tak dużo błędów (nie pisaliśmy o wszystkim, bo nie było sensu ani miejsca - ani czasu), to ekspert w dziedzinie opery... no, trudno powiedzieć :) Pozdrawiam, Szpawq 02:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] polish opera cont.

I thought You're Pole writing in english, rather than someone knowing polish - it's so rare :) But english is fine with me, so You do not need to rewrite anything.

How come You have so good an orientation in polish opera, then? It isn't customary of foreigners to know anything on this topic, that's why I wrote You in the first place.

You should chop the passage about Dziady - I just looked up every occurence for that particular drama in major polish monography about Chopin, by Tomaszewski (ISBN 8322408579, IInd ed., PWM Kraków 2005), and there's not a word in it, so You can assume it is a myth (I didn't check all the entrances for Mickiewicz though, as there are >100 of them). The only source which could be really helpful, are Chopin's letters. Dziady were instead used by Mahler as an initial idea/programme for the first part of his Second symphony, which is of course totally different matter...

Please don't forget mention the following operas: Agatka by Holland, and Noskowski's projects for opera on Ogniem i mieczem (With Fire and Sword by Sienkiewicz, which turned to a (brillant) symphonic poem instead, the Steppe. It seems unimportant, but it is because it's possibly the only trial to write an opera on any part of Trilogy by Sienkiewicz, and because that particular symphonic poem is the first in Poland, and frequently played. Also You should mention Szymanowski's early operetta (Loteria na mężów...), which was probably never before performed, and will be premiered this fall. Also, remove all the subdivision in the music after 1945 - it's entirely fictional. So much for a start ;), if You'll do it better than we, we'll translate it back to polish afterwards, since nobody has time to do the proper thing :)

Write back when You'll upgrade the article substantially, or when You have any particular questions, if I'm not responding try also my polish page. Greetings and good luck, Szpawq 19:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I forgot: other notable polish composers, who did not write an opera instead of writing one, are Henryk Mikołaj Górecki (which was approached with such proposition, wrote Air/Opera scene for tube, tam-tam, piano and gran cassa op. 59 as some kind of study for one, but then passed it to his student, Eugeniusz Knapik (who wrote the three opera cycle mentioned in the article) and Witold Lutosławski, who being all his life firmly against writing opera, in his last years considered writing a "child-opera".

It would be perhaps also interesting to mention what operas were inspired/have their libretto taken from Mickiewicz's works.

And the worst thing in the article will be still setting up good proportions of the whole thing. Szpawq 20:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Content arbitration

As regards your ANI message, I cannot agree with you more. Since ArbCom claims that content arbitration is not in their purview, he that has more time to spend arguing on talk pages and a bigger mouth for shouting, usually wins a content dispute, even if his point is utterly devoid of merit. An added benefit is one's ability to ask his friends to register a wikipedia account and to support him whenever possible. It is assumed that, once a person is interested in mainspace, he should be arguing over some point ad nauseum. This is fallacious, since I know scores of pages which contain patent lies, but I'm too busy to even discuss it with people who "own" them. It is easier for me to walk away. This is the case of Alex mond. I don't care about Armenia and I don't want to spend my time on arguing with a person whose point is apriori false and whose opinion will not be changed a bit by all my efforts. This is a problem that the community needs to address if it wants to keep Wikipedia more or less creditable. Unfortunately nobody seems to be interested, except you, me and dab. --Ghirla^-трёп- 16:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

And on that note, mail. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 13:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stradelli

Proszę sprawdź to hasło jeśli masz jakieś źródła, wygląda na hoax, był kompozytor który się nazywał Alessandro Stradella a nie Orlando Federico Stradelli (a nawet Alessandro Stradelli, jego rzekomy ojciec!).

Piszę po polsku, bo chcesz poćwiczyć rozumienie tekstu ;), możesz mi odpisać po angielsku.

Dzięki!! Szpawq 17:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

In English, I've deleted this article, mostly for the reasons given in the deletion summary. You might like to delete the companion piece at the Polish Wikipedia.

There was nothing in Grove - zilch, zero, nothing - and I don't think he could have been Alessandro Stradella's son, even assuming that "Stradelli" was a misprint. Checking Stradella's various biographies, it seems unlikely that he'd be having children at the time this fellow was alleged to have been born (1665), let alone legitimate children. Even if we're wrong, and he did exist, his claim to notability would appear to be tenuous. All very strange, but unless someone proves me wrong the pl:Stradelli should probably face the chop as well. Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 13:02, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stradelli finished

"Speedy delete" = "Ekspresowe kasowanko", w skrócie: "EK", i już nie ma go także u nas (poleciał na EK nawet zanim dostałem od Ciebie wiadomość). Ten sam ipek (IP) mieszał też u nas przy artykule Bononcini, ale chyba nie u was. Dzięki, Szpawq 18:43, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

(to Moreschi) thx for checking that, it seems that the same IP messed up also with the pl:Bononcini, so I cut out everything which might have been false. Can You check in Grove also, which of Bononcini sons (G.B. or A.M.) actually wrote Il trionfo di Camilla (1696 opera)? In polish musical encyclopedy (biographical part, unfortunately outdated) they list it under A.M., but claim that it's not all that sure who wrote what; on en:wiki it's under G.B., and on Italian it's both under G.B. and A.M. I think it should go rather under G.B., since A.M would be 19 when writing that. Thanks, Szpawq 18:55, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Dum de dums, I just lurve cleaning up after the hoaxers, don't you? Great way of spending your evenings. Il trionfo di Camilla? Is that the one about the death of Diana? Ok, foolery over. Yes, it's by Giovanni Bononcini, and Grove Online doesn't seem to think there's any ambiguity. Thanks for giving us the tip-off re the hoaxery. Always fun, that stuff:)

(to Folantin): on another note...have you seen the infobox on PDQ Bach? Hope nobody just looks at the box! Cheers, Moreschi ^Talk 19:30, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, surprise, surprise, archiving off-topic ranting is censorship. This has stopped being funny. Moreschi ^Talk 13:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Mail. Moreschi ^Talk 13:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mickiewicz/Chopin

I've checked a bit further, and still it seems to me that saying that Dziady were to be an opera by Chopin (??) is some kind of huge misunderstanding. Definitely, both Mickiewicz and Elsner (and at least one other person, Tytus Woynowicz, one of the closest Chopin's friends) wanted Chopin to write an opera; Elsner seeing the scope of Ch's talent saw him as the possible creator of national opera (Jarosław Iwaszkiewicz, Chopin, ed PWM, Kraków 1984, pages 38-39), it's worth to note that he himself - as composer - was aware of own insufficiency in opera writing (or, in writing at all). There's a nice sentence abt the reply to Woynowicz (as he could say what he wanted to Elsner and Mickiewicz, but didn't want to lie to him): "dlaczego u siebie na wsi buduje on fabrykę cukru, a nie klasztor karmelitanek?" (ib., p. 38), probably after Chopin's letter.

Some claims about Mickiewicz and national polish opera can be false however, as in Czernicka (falsified) letters (ib., p. 160).

Abt Mickiewicz's Dziady: In the article on Mickiewicz in polish musical encyclopaedia (PWM), there's again nothing about Chopin writing opera on that, although the article is written by Mieczysław Tomaszewski, leading polish expert on Chopin. He goes only as far as calling one part (Kovno-Vilnius) of Dziady a semicantata, and the other (Dresden) a semiopera. Dziady inspired some musical works, notably "Widma" -lyrical scenes - by Moniuszko, and first part of Symphony No. 2 by Mahler, but apart from that - only some songs. There are operas on "Pan Tadeusz" (Szeluto, 1954), "Czaty" (Rimsky-Korsakov, 1903) and "Konrad Wallenrod" (Dobrzyński, 1864, Ponchielli, 1874, Żeleński, 1884), but nothing on Dziady.

So, if You have some time, I'd recommend to add a chapter on that article abt opera works inspired by three great romantic "wieszcze" (Mickiewicz, Słowacki, Krasiński) - that would be something of worth for reader even vaguely familiar with polish poetry.

(to Moreschi) Yup, well, if You have any question about polish musical hoax, I can check that in exchange :)

Greetings (to both), hope that helps! Szpawq 20:20, 19 June 2007 (UTC)