Talk:Flying while Muslim

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 17 June 2007. The result of the discussion was No consensus.

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[edit] "Not True Muslims"

The link to "No True Scotsman" is not inserting opinion, as the use of "Not true Muslims" in the quote is exactly the sort of situation in which the fallacy occurs. To say that committing a terrorist act means that one is not a "true Muslim" is equivalent to saying that putting sugar in porridge makes one not a "true Scotsman." Note the particular emphasis in the fallacy article on accepted definition; it is generally accepted (if denounced by religious scholars) that terrorism is not a disqualifying attribute for Islam. Sketch051 (talk) 19:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It is open to debate whether or not terrorism would disqualify someone from being Muslim, and I've heard it argued both ways. Putting in the "no true Scotsman" link is thus your opinion and not a neutral, factual statement. If you're making the case that a terrorist can be a Muslim according to the Qur'an, you need to back that up with evidence and not just link to a logical fallacy. You say that "it is generally accepted (if denounced by religious scholars) that terrorism is not a disqualifying attribute for Islam" — however, religious scholars are exactly who you should be listening to in this case. Kyle Barbour (talk) 02:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
The English language does not have an academy like that of the French language, so it is not left to scholars to dictate the definition of particular terms; it is the sole domain of English speakers at large to determine, by their use, what they mean by a term. That is the point I am attempting to make with my reference to accepted definition; I'm not asserting whether Koranic law permits terrorism or not, merely that, to the general public, terrorism is not a prima facie disqualification to claim to be a Muslim. Sketch051 (talk) 20:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC) p.s. I'm also not directly stating that the quote is an instance of the fallacy (although I believe it to be), but am linking to the fallacy's page, leaving it to the readers to judge for themselves whether the fallacy applies.
It would be interesting to know, how should the airport security decide who is a true Muslim. Anyway it's like saying Christians didn't do crusade, because who kills in the name of religion, isn't a true Christian. --80.98.75.217 (talk) 12:04, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

I've removed the biased links twice now, and they've twice been put back into place. These biased columns that express opinion have no place being mixed in with objective articles that are journalistic accounts. I hope to not have to remove them a fourth time. Fifty7 19:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I must say, it's nice of you to finally explain yourself. But your theory makes no sense. A news article where all the quotes come from one side of a controversial issue, as is the case in the Associated Press article that is linked to, is just as biased as a column. The AP article is constructed to argue that the Flying Imams were victims and that the people who were suspicious of them were bigots. The article/column distinction reflects a (sometimes arbitrary) decision made by the editor of a publication. It is not equivalent to objective/biased. External links can balenced by linking to articles with differing biases. Objective articles are few and far between. If you look at WP:External Links, the relevent guideline is "Avoid undue weight on particular points of view." This implies that a particular link can have a point of view. Kauffner 05:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I've checked the articles in question as per the neutrality tag on the article. It's true that the links in question are to columns, but that isn't necessarily a problem. To get around it, I have added a couple of lines to the article detailing the debate over "flying while Muslim", which references the same articles as before but puts them in context and notes that they are opinion pieces. I hope this will satisfy everyone & have removed the tag. -- TinaSparkle 14:57, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flying while fill-in-the-blank

Considering that a Jewish man was thrown off an airplane for being "too Jewish", rocking back and forth in his seat while praying, it should be obvious it doesn't matter who you are anymore. Anything 'weird' is going to freak out American flyers, or at least individual ones.

[That was an Air Canada Jazz flight, so it wasn't American passengers, sorry to dissapoint you]

If this article wants to say that it is a special problem for Muslims, if might be better as a redirect to an article that deals with that more general topic. However, as demonstrated by the references, it is a wider problem, and perhaps this article should be expanded to include the general problem on paranoia in flying aluminum tubes. Shenme 20:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[1] (background story that's cute)

I would say that these arguments go in support of merging this article in with Racial profiling. -- TinaSparkle 14:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
I've added a see also link to Flying Imams controversy, which looks to be the larger/'better' article. But as above it definitely is part of a larger topic. I think I'm going to add another merge proposal to both these articles. Shenme 19:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for this, Shenme. I would support both merges - in the sense that the term "flying while Muslim", and the controversy in question, seems to me to be relevant to both articles, and would merit a mention in each. I feel that "flying while Muslim" should probably redirect to "Ethnic/racial profiling" rather than the specific "Flying imams controversy" article, as it's a term used in a wide variety of situations rather than solely in the case of the 6 imams. But I don't feel very strongly on this and if anyone feel otherwise, please do put your case. -- TinaSparkle 21:42, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Similarly satirizes

Karl Meier and Prester John persistently delete the word "similarly" with illogical edit comments, sich as "this concept is not similar and has nothing to do with racial profiling. As mentioned, Islam is not a race." The sentence in question does not say that it is a similar concept. It says that the phrase satirizes one concept in a similar way it was done with another concept, irrelevantly, similar or not. Mukadderat 22:17, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The No True Scotsman link is OR

I'd have to agree with Fifty7 here: linking to "No True Scotsman" is inappropriate - because it's original research. "No True Scotsman" is an informal logical fallacy; therefore, if a Wikipedia editor makes the association between "No True Scotsman" and "...those involved in this terrorist act were not true Muslims," the Wikipedia editor is essentially asserting that "Omar Shahin's words are fallacious." Whether or not they actually are fallacious, Wikipedia cannot be the original source of that argument - that's the very definition of OR. If we can find a reliable source that associates "No True Scotsman" with the quote about "not true Muslims," we can mention that fallacy; if such a source doesn't exist, we can't. --209.78.3.114 (talk) 23:12, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, the wiki link is editorializing, and shouldn't be included. PhilKnight (talk) 23:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
OK, I hadn't realized that OR="Original Research"; I stand by my assertion that it's not opinion, but if it falls afoul of a different policy, I'll relent. Thank you for your opinions. Sketch051 (talk) 01:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
P.S. Have I somehow been blocked from watching this article? Sketch051 (talk) 01:59, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for relenting, and regarding your query, no you are most welcome to continue editing. PhilKnight (talk) 08:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe it was just a glitch that it wouldn't stay on my watchlist. It doesn't matter anyway; I was only watching for this issue. Sketch051 (talk) 15:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)