Talk:Flower of Scotland
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[edit] God Save The Queen
God grant that Marshall Wade,/May by thy mighty aid,/Victory Bring,/May he sedition hush,/And like a torrent rush,/Rebellious Scots to crush/God Save the King!
The entry contained factual inaccuracies. It referred to a verse having 'anti-Scottish' lyrics but they were in fact anti-Jacobite, as it was written at the height of the Jacobite Rebellion. 'Rebellious Scots' (note the absence of the definite article) it referred to were Jacobites (of all nationalities; though the House of Stuart had a Scottish origin).
In a piece that is concerned about Bannockburn, it seems to be more confusing than clarifying to drag a completely different confrontation into the issue.
Essentially if anything it was an anti-Catholic lyric in spirit, the Rebellion itself having originated by the Catholicism of the Jacobites as opposed to the Protestantism of the Hanoverians. Since there were very many loyal Hanoverians in Scotland (probably outnumbering the Jacobites) it is misleading to suggest the lyric had an anti-Scottish slant. The word 'Scots' used probably simply because it scanned better on the verse. Stevouk 10:24, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Nonsense. Most Jacobites in Scotland were Episcopalians, not Catholics. The lyric was indeed anti-Scottish and the above apologia is not convincing. It was only part of GSTQ for a short time but this was enough to make most Scots detest having it as their official National Anthem.
Exile 22:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
This sounds like a POV to me. My comments were not intended as an apologia for God Save The Queen, merely to point out that the 'Scots' in the verse were Jacobites (of whatever nationality) - whom else would Wade have been sent to quell? And for what reason other than for their 'seditious' Jacobite activities? Read any other way the lyric would have to suggest that the Scots were being quelled simply because they were Scots- a meaningless suggestion if ever there was one. My reference to Catholicism related to the simple fact that what debarred the Jacobite succession in the first place was their Catholicism. In any event, what evidence do you have for the statement 'most Scots'? Stevouk 23:01, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
It was clearly referring to the Jacobites as it was written at the time of the jacobite rebellion
"'GAINST WHO?", "THAT'S WHO!", "WHAT FOR?"
Is it worth noting the popularization of shouting during the chorus of "Flower of Scotland", specificly:
And stood against him ("'Gainst who?"),
Proud Edward's army ("That's who!", "Bastards!", "Wankers!"),
And sent him homeward ("What for?"),
Tae think again
Also, of the clips I've seen from Rugby and Football, the verse beginning with "the hills are bare now" wasn't sung, is this commonplace?
Rob McDougall 04:39, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the national debate has been more about the musical merits of the contenders, not the religion or politics. While Flower of Scotland appeals to that part of the Scottish character that loves beating the English, it is poignant and a bit mournful. The best anthems of other great countries are rousing and majestic. The best foot stamping anthem we have in Scotland these days is the traditional The Bonny Bonny Banks (of Loch Lomond) as re-worked by Runrig and now played and sung at almost every wedding reception just before Auld Lang Syne. But why not have a National competition sponsored by the Executive to get a brand new anthem to suit a new Scotland? We have a wealth of musical talent ranging from Peter Maxwell Davies to Franz Ferdinand via Tommy Smith. And it would be fun!
- The shouts should definitely go in, IMO. The argument about anthems will no doubt run and run, but Flower of Scotland seems to have carried the day with the people who actually go around singing national anthems. And tunewise it's no worse than many countries...personally I favour Scotland the Brave, but that's by the bye. Don't get Peter Maxwell Davies to do it if you want something playable on pipes! Actually, there is a movement every ten years or so to write ourselves a new anthem, a competition is held, a winner (generally with a vacuous and annoying composition) is announced, and everyone carries on singing Flwoer of Scotland. It's happened three times in my lifetime, and it probably won't be the last.
- As for GSTQ, it is seen in Scotland (for whatever reason) as being an English anthem, rather than a British one. Its origins don't help the case for it. Calum 22:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Anyone want to explain why someone deleted the lyrics to this song?
[edit] Wrong Battle
It was my understanding that Roy Williamson was actually referring to the defeat at Flodden where the "flowers of the forest were a' wede awa'" Brendandh 18:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
Wrong - the "Flowers of the Forest" is a song in its own right and Roy WIlliamson was definitely referring to Bannockburn in The Flower of Scotland. Check the Corries own site if you doubt it. However I think something is incorrect in the main article though I unfortunately have no proof. I was Scottish rugby fan in the early to mid-70s and can remember singing The Flower of Scotland on the terraces at Murrayfield before the tour of South Africa. The song was popular with the younger, more boisterous elements of Scotland's support whilst the toffs in the Stand continued to sing God Save the Queen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.209.139 (talk) 19:54, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Meaning of Lyrics
I always thought "flower of Scotland" referred to the thistle but i have recently been told it actually refers to the youth of Scotland. Is this correct ?
Gonzo1982 16:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
- The thistle is an emblem of Scotland, like the fleur-de-lys for France or the shamrock for Ireland. In this song, though, I believe "flower" is a metaphor. As such, it can mean the best in a period of time ("the flower of his youth"), or the best members of a group ("...the flower of our country..."). So in the lyrics, those who fought and died, who stood against Edward, are seen as the flower, the best, of Scotland. Some other examples of this metaphor in a military context:
- The 18th Georgia Volunteers were described as "the flower of Lee's army" in the U.S. civil war.
- William Manchester wrote of Gamelin sending "the flower of the French troops" to Flanders in 1940.
- Sir Ian Hamilton wrote in 1915, "These New Zealanders and Australians and, best of all, the Australian Light Horse and the New Zealand Mounted Rifles, and above all the last named, are the flower of our troops or of any other troops in the world."
- Winston Churchill fretted that a premature invasion of Europe would leave the beaches of France "choked with the bodies of the flower of American and British manhood."
- — OtherDave 23:04, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
