Talk:Fleur-de-lis

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Christianity
Christianity Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Christianity, an attempt to build a comprehensive guide to Christianity on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit this article, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. If you are new to editing Wikipedia visit the welcome page to become familiar with the guidelines.
B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale.
Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.
Assessment comments
France Portal
Fleur-de-lis is within the scope of WikiProject France, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments, explaining the ratings and/or suggest improvements.)
Scouting Wiki Project Fleur-de-lis is part of the Scouting WikiProject, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Scouting and Guiding on the Wikipedia. This includes but is not limited to boy and girl organizations, WAGGGS and WOSM organizations as well as those not so affiliated, country and region-specific topics, and anything else related to Scouting. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as High-importance on the importance scale.
Heraldry and Vexillology Portal

Fleur-de-lis is within the scope of the Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (FAQ).
Old door from Isfahan

Fleur-de-lis appeared on the Architecture Portal as Selected article. For more information or to participate, visit WikiProject:Architecture

Contents

[edit] Erzatz

The fleur-de-lis was referenced in the Wikipedia story of The Three Musketeers as a mark of a felon. There is no reference to this history on the Fleur-de-lis Wikepedia site. Any comments?

Clarefjones 12:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)clarefjonesClarefjones 12:08, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


Can someone put a border around the flag to make it stand out from the white background? -- Zoe

OK, done -- Taras

I recall from my genealogy chart -- but it's at home so I can't confirm the details -- that England was originally quartered with France Ancient. Gritchka (Later: yes it was; changed it.)

The Prince of Wales also has a fleur de lis on his coat of arms. Aren't they three feathers? Wetman 22:05, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)

His badge is three feathers within a coronet which, iirc, has fleurs alternating with crosses. —Tamfang 06:13, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

A lot more should be discussed on this page: the fleur-de-lis florenced of Firenze (Florence), for example. --Daniel C. Boyer 20:04, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I may confusing the Blue Angel's Fleur-de-lis with another maneuver. I'm trying to doublecheck. Rsduhamel 20:11, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Recently and anonymously added

"Contrary to popular belief, the fleur-de-lis did not originate in France. It was a creation of the ruling class of the Roman Empire, and the French merely adopted, not created, the symbol." Is there any source for this? I'm not deleting, because I simply have no idea of the fact of the matter, but it would be news to me. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:32, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

I saw the symbol on both Roman and Greek ruins, but I have no idea whether it was used as a symbol or merely ornament. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 21:42, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

I actually thought that Fleur-De-Lis was a name before I read this article as I just read a book called Fleur-De-Lis!-- User:Silverwolf_athame

[edit] Language

Are France Modern and France Ancient French-language phrases? If so, they should be consistently italicized. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:20, Dec 15, 2004 (UTC)

No, heraldrese, like argent and gules.--Wetman 12:43, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The lily and the coronation of Clovis

"The fleur-de-lis' origins with French monarchs stems from the baptismal lily used in the crowning of King Clovis I. " The source for this detail could only be Gregory of Tours, book II.30-31 [1]. The text offers no lily involved in any way. Clovis was king before he was baptised, as we all vaguely remember from schooldays. That dove let down from the rafters is from the baptism of Clovis not the coronation, so there may be other legendary confusions here: to remove this one from the text might be invidious. --Wetman 12:43, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Fiat lis

Someone recently added anonymously "Fleur-de-luce also means Flower of Light" and a related remark. This is literally true, but is there any reason to believe it is etymologically relevant? Unless someone can come up with a citation from a decent source that says so, I think this should be removed. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:42, 14 September 2005 (UTC) Hey as you can se in the symbolism of the fleur-de-lis, it is "light" , spiritual light in religious symbolism. Now you are "enlightend" regards from another "enlighted" :)

The Oxford English Dictionary says:
"The prevailing form is a. mod.F. fleur de lis, formerly lys; but this form is scarcely found in Eng. before the 19th c.; see above. The form flower-de-luce survives as a poetical archaism and in U.S. The Fr. is literally ‘lily-flower’ from lis, formerly lys, in OF. liz for lils lily, the s of the nom. sing. being retained in the oblique cases; the English spelling de-lice, de-lyce, was in its origin merely graphic (cf. price, mice, syce, etc.), but in the 16th c. was associated with a fanciful etymology flos deliciæ, and the form deluce, de luce apparently also leaned upon a fanciful derivation. Occasional English forms were deluce, delyce flowre."
Not sure my attempt to clarify really belongs in the intro - but can't think how to restructure things right now. HJMG 08:42, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

So, in short, it was common English-language orthography, and folk etymology, but the claim of luce="light" as real etymology is still false. - Jmabel | Talk 05:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Another anonymous addition

<< The fleur-de-lis represents, in modern depth psychology, life and sun/light (resurrection and ascension). It is also an archetype symbol for flowers and birds (dove), in modern, eagle etc. >>

References are required. What the gleep is "modern depth psychology", anyway?

Urhixidur 01:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Depth psychology ? 10 700 000 hits on google.

Ref:In modern depth psychology it [Assumption/Resurection] is generalised, not pointing to any religion. Thats why "life/light"...

By my count "modern depth psychology": 545 hits on Google. Perhaps you did not put quotation marks around the phrase, so got all the pages that happened to have these three words on them?
Looking at some of these references, it seems to mean nothing more than "psychology that acknowledges the existence of unconscious thought", embracing Freud, Jung, Adler, and a lot more. Given that, the claim that "modern depth psychology" ascribes a particular meaning to a particular symbol strikes me as absolutely bogus. Perhaps the Jungians or some particular portion of the Jungians make a statement like this, but to describe it as if the entire psychoanalytic tradition were in agreement is misleading, to say the least. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:44, 14 January 2006 (UTC)
Consequently, I have cut the following, pending citations. If any of this has solid citations, provide them and restore:
The fleur-de-lis represents, in modern depth psychology, life and light. It is also an archetype symbol for flowers and birds (dove).
The fleur-de-lis represent the Tree of Life Garden of Eden.
The Angel Gabriel is often pictured with the lily in his hand in the announcement of Christ's birth.
Jmabel | Talk 01:47, 14 January 2006 (UTC)


About the psychologian perspective

I can understand the depth psychologian [unconscious meaning) of the fleur-de-lis as a sexual symbol in its flower perspective. Flowers in depth psychology is a symbol for sex organs where the seed/sperm is "planted" = life. Circumcision symbolism of the fleur-de-lis is also refering to the sex organs (life)

It is also easy to understand: The seed (life) is growing and reaching for light (sunlight) (the growing/the bloom).


Because of the resssurection/assumption story the fleur-de-lis has become the biggest archtype symbol of flowers/the tree of life, representing lifes ressurection/assumption in the flower/tree "growing from earth and reaching heavens sun's light".

This is also a major reason why the fleur-de-lys has become the "crown flower""and the "fruit" of nations.

ref: Crown of Flowers/"Crown of Life"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_%28headgear%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:QueenMaryCirclet.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_State_Crown


Today nations, even UN, and the church use the fleur de lys in symbolism combined with flowers/trees/plant/leaf and birds dove/eagle (even flights), stars/candle etc.


To remove the birth symbolism (life/light itself), and the tree of life (Egyptian story/Eve story) etc, when it is common religious symbolism, is like "removing" the "crown of life", in my bok.

So until next time , research before remove and critisism ! Regards from a psychologist in profesion.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.109.44.116 (talk • contribs) .

If you want to add cited material saying who says this, fine. If you want, in effect, to claim without citation that everyone from Freud onwards believes this, that's another matter. -- Jmabel | Talk 14:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moses??

"Here there is room for speculations about Moses ("son of Egypt") and his Egyptian cultural heritage in the writing of the book of Genesis)." I suppose there is room for speculation about anything, but why does it belong in an encyclopedia article? Can anyone make a good case for including this? Otherwise, I'd like to delete it. - Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

It's been five days, no response, removing. - Jmabel | Talk 05:19, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussions about symbolism etc.

I thought it would help clarify things to have a distinct section for mystical, artistic or psychological symbolism. (Still needs a lot of tidying up.) Apologies if I've distorted anything while rearranging.
Dear anonymous editor(s), this could be very interesting, but it needs references to earn its place in an encyclopedia! All you need to do is put citations in between <ref> and </ref> . --HJMG 12:50, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sic amica mea inter lilias or filias?

I've taken this out for now as I believe the version most people use is sic amica mea inter filias

Oops, sorry, didn't sign this. HJMG

[edit] Dear anonymous editor

Hello again! I was quite surprised you took out some citations I'd added. It made me wonder if you've had a chance to read the Wikipedia policies:

Even when we've got interesting things to say, which we really believe in, we may have to find some other place to publish them. Encyclopedias need to try to provide impersonal, knowledgeable information.
Hope this helps you understand why I made some changes.--HJMG 08:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright

"Therefore it is not rare, until the end of the 12th c., to see Christ represented amidst more or less stylised lilies or fleurons, whose design could also recall the Trinity of the Chrismon (Christ's monogram)." This, and more, comes from a website with a rough translation from Pastoureau's book. We can't use it here without mentioning the author. --HJMG 08:46, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Its like having copyrigth on this: "Jesus loves you and want to save you"... Nobodody has copyright on religious public information.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.109.20.2 (talk • contribs) 28 August 2006.

[edit] Trinity?

The lead says the Fleur-de-lys "is a symbol for the Holy Trinity symbolising the Resurrection, the Assumption and the Annunciation." That's a rather unfamiliar Trinity. Where does this come from? (I dislike putting {{Fact}} tags in the lead...) Gimmetrow 20:12, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know but maybe the one who wrote this meant that the threeness of the fleur can represent either the Trinity or these three events, though he placed them in chronologically wrong order (and may have confused Ascension and Assumption). Str1977 (smile back) 20:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I think this probably came from an anon editor who intermittently spends a lot of time on the article, and whose edits have often been mentioned on this talk page. See [2] and[3]. I would support removing the stuff about a Trinity of Resurrection, Assumption and Annunciation, unless a clear source can be found. (It's probably the same person who re-added the 'flower of light' idea to the lead paragraph.) --HJMG 09:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Note: since anon editors are continuously changing comments that have responses making the discussion impossible to follow, I am removing all of my following comments. Gimmetrow 21:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe its Jesus trying to "enlightend" you...

Pretty sure that the fleur-de-lis representing the Trinity would not be hard to cite, but Annunciation / Resurrection / Ascension is another matter. [4] and [5] look useful on this and maybe other things. - Jmabel | Talk 20:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)


Unfamiliar Trinity ?

Wery mutch "familyar tree" (related)

The Ressurection: "gloryfication" from the son (Jesus) to the father (Is the trinity) Father-Son-Holy Spirit, 123 "pedals" trinity lily, dove, etc. (after death)

The Assumption: became "gloryfied" in/as the "Heavenly Mother" of Jesus, the Son" ("ressurected alive") (after jesus died) (painting exsamples: The Black Madonna of Częstochowa. The Notre Dame Madonna in the trinity fleur de lys, ref: http://france.dorleans.name/ The Madonna in Bourges cathedral ref: http://www.heraldica.org/topics/fdl.htm

The Annunciation: the lily used as a "tree of life/dove/angel" (combination) announcing/representing life" Mother Mary (life), giving life (Jesus, the Son), or in other worlds: the Holy Tree/Three. ref: http://www.entheomedia.org/datura_gallery.htm ref: http://www.mgardens.org/JS-FAHSOTT-MG.html

As a Trinity symbol the fleur de lis symbolize all those Trinity events...

Dont chance this symbolizme if you want it to be a serious objektive (enlightend) article.(it is wery important objektive religious symbolism).

Referanses: Study this collection of fleur de lis and the sacral use of it. http://collection.dorleans.name/


Ye i know all the relative (profan/sacrale) symbolism of the fleur de lis and i love it :).I have study if a "lifetime". Now I am talking about symbolizme in religion and its wrong to take away the trinity (life) when it always has been there... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.109.12.60 (talk)


BTW Gabriel is not a person, just an angel (spirit) representing/announcing the holy trinity coming down (birth/life)... So its not an attribute "spesificly to Gabriel" but to "life itself (the trinity)" (Here represented by Maria) giving birth to "life" (Represented by Jesus)". The angel gabriel is representing the holy spirit/the dove/the fleur de lis/life/born


Annunciation-Resurrection-Assumption is a part of the same trinity symbolism and the fleur de lis/lily is used on all that symbolism by the church, and even more in modern times. This is common knowledge...

The lily is one symbol, the fleur-de-lys is a different, more specific symbol. The Trinity is the Father-Son-Holy Spirit. The fleur-de-lys can represent that trinity.

The fleur de lis has reach a wery complex and big symbolism through history. I advise people to learn the hole symbolisme first and dont "reduce" it if it get to "big for you"r brain...

Off course in combination with, eksample: doves/angels, frogs etc the fleur de lis symbolism "can" be "reduced" or explained "separatly" (diffrensiated) because of the "colliding/crossing" symbolisme. But remember its all a part of the same symbolism/history and the complexity of creation.


Why does it represent a "trinity" of those three specific events at once?

Annunciation-Resurrection-Assumption is a part of the same trinity symbolism... "life dying/getting born" etc. And as a Trinity symbol the fleur de lis symbolize those Trinity events...


3 (tree) is 1 , the "same, but still different"... my friend...

All I see here is a rambling set of remarks. Nothing here specifically ties the Fleur-de-lis to Annunciation-Resurrection-Assumption. If you are saying that is just another aspect of the Trinity, then (1) this seems to me to be ill-founded in any other than very mystical doctrine and (2) this has little to do with the fleur-de-lis. - Jmabel | Talk 01:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel ! If you cant understand that life is the "ressurection" "from death to life (from son to father in Heaven" risen/ressurected, and the white lilly/fleur de lys is among other things used in funerals as a symbol of "death/life", then you have a lower IQ than I.

"Thats" is part of why I am d'Orleans (fleur de lys) and not you. "peasant IQ" I call it. Steve d'Orleans: "the King"

BTW, to atribute "Gabriel" so mutch instead of life itself (the trinity) is making a kind of "luzipher"..."wrong fixation/focus" ("away from the fruits (meal) of the tree of life" "africa etc"... "brown/brownie code" etc...

As I told before Gabriel is not a person but represent the spirit/dove/wings in the trinity and are just a "third" part of the 2 (Mary/Jesus) within them (like the kingdom of Heaven)or a unknown 3th person(persons) ("or a undentified flying objekt") etc... The "atribute" goes to Mother Mary (Father in Heaven) and Son..."the living life/fleur de lys/trinity" (the tree of life) "last meal etc" fruit of the tree...

So you can be so mutch "wikipaedian/wicked religion" you want.. "dare to fuck with me Jmabel" and get enlightend ("crowned"), or move to darkness ("hell") in denial/darkness"("death").

And off course I am the "editor" u missed..

regards from Steve...

BTW, What kind of "trinity do u prefer,? "peasant" or "king crowned" (enlightend) ???

I've reported this as a personal attack, and I'm done trying to interact with you: it is clear that you have no intention of addressing the question at hand. - Jmabel | Talk 21:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Want to fight with me "wiki ones" ? Its a "battle u "luce"...

BTW if u define this as a personal attack then u have a serious problem defining subjektivity kontra objektivity... But off course if you want to define ur "denial of the trinity" as a war/attack against "me", telling u the truth to u about that trinity , yes then it is a "war and a attack agains the "darkness (denial of common truth) within you".

I'll take this article off of my watchlist, and I won't edit it further for the rest of the calendar year. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intro text

Quote: Stylized lilies similar to the fleur-de-lis may also symbolize the Resurrection or the Assumption.

This is a "lie, there is no similar fleur de lis"... Fleur de lis represent the trinity (life) in general (like the Christmas tree)...among other things...but there is "different types of Christmas trees ("decoration/style/stylize etc")... but "they" all symbolize the same...

So what are u doing?, this is like "eves eating from the apple tree", denying the fleur de lys as a Trinity symbol ("denying the Christmas tree" or defining it into "similar" definitions when it is the "same anyway"...

Dont u understand the importens of not denying ("falling"), and u now what that "angel/eve" represent...if you try to define in: That is "tree, that is not tree", Then What "similar" tree do "u want to taste", when its is all the same tree"...

BTW it was me who in the first place putted in Gabriel in this edit story , but i find out that it was not so importent...this article is about the fleur de lys "NOT Gabriel"....

The white lily (and flowers in general) is often pictured toghether with Gabriel when "he comes announcing/atributing" the purity etc of ( Mother Mary) (worthy) to give "life/flowers/fruits" (Jesus, The Son).

So please dont "twist the truth"... it will not "benefite you"...I know...

BTW , Gabriel is back ( on top of article) but a as "attributer/announcour" not the "attributed/announced" one"... ; ps: I have linked this article to the d'Orleans page... http://dorleans.name/

A good advice: Be a "Wiki" in the good key (keys to enlightment) (objektive truth) not a "wiki one" in the "bad/good" tree (fleur de lys/Christmas tree) ("stylized/decorated") = ("made fine/ascended") etc... "that will benefite you with gifts of life"...

"Rudolph has spoken"...

A very good page to se the use of the fleur-de-lis in diffrent combinations: http://vatican.dorleans.name/

The page/article looks ok now :) Best regards, "Comet the reindear with wings" LOL... BTW "Rudolph has a "red nose"... :)

Dont "edit/chance/remove my text" here on the discussion (This is not the article) (somebody did in the trinity section etc) Why?, "to putt them self in a"...? (manupulation of the truth) It should only be aload to edit/chance/remove your own text in a discussion, not others... This should be a common rule...

Because of this opportunity to "edit/chance, manipulate and remove" I still dont consider this consept to be "truly objektive",,, Steve...

Quote:The three-petaled arms of the cross symbolize the Trinity; the lily also symbolizes the resurrection. ref: http://www.cresourcei.org/symbols/chrismon.html

That "the ressurection" symbolism is "removed" in the fleur de lys article here is not objektive , remember it can not be a trinity without the "son to the father in the holy spirit" = (the ressurection)= the trinity ! And when I say "removed" i mean, it (the ressurection) is a major part of the trinity but not mention ("removed text/links") here in the fleur de lys article. (A part of why its not truly objektive). In other words a "4+ instead of a 6"...

The discussion is NOT about whether the three parts of the fleur-de-lis represents the Holy Trinity, the "Annunciation/Resurrection/Ascension", or anything else. That is simply not what the discussion is about. The discussion IS about the simple fact that you cannot simply "say" that it represents one thing or another without giving a credible reference. I could "say" that it represents the three columns of the Cabala, the three rivers at Pittsburgh, or the three bears for that matter, but unless I can give a credible reference to support my assertion then I am simply "whistling in the breeze." Get it? PGNormand 17:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section

I think some of the trivia doesn't really belong here. Various uses of the actual symbol are fine. The Blue Angels maneuver is questionable but close enough to the symbol that it's OK. However, the fact that a horse race uses the same name is not relevant trivia, and is handled by the disambiguation page. Gimmetrow 14:17, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Logos

  • Why do the sports team logos keep getting taken off? 67.41.213.180 05:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Well . . . I can't speak for anyone else, but here's my opinion: . . . . . .
We need pictures to illustrate the text without swamping it. Personally I feel we have enough pics here already. (Although a more appropriate one for the symbolism section would be good.) For the modern history and modern usage parts of the text we have two 20th century flags (one might be enough), one pic from New Orleans illustrating the idea that the symbol is used in a variety of contexts, and the scouting pic as an example of a contemporary logo using the fleur-de-lis. (More of a worldwide logo than any sports team's.) We can't list every use ever of the fleur-de-lis, and we can't add a pic of all the thousands of logos and coats of arms with fleurs-de-lis. An encyclopedia has to summarise and select; articles are more reader-friendly if they're not "cluttered" with excess lists, pics or examples. --HJMG 15:19, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brussels and the iris/fleur-de-lis

Hi, I think there's something missing about the iris as a symbol (fleur-de-lis). The official flag of the Brussels-Capital Region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brussels-Capital_Region) is a golden iris with white border and blue background. More information on http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/be-bxl.html .

Anton muyldermans 06:02, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kappa Kappa Gamma

I know nothing about editing sites on Wikipedia, but I wanted to point something out: the fleur-de-lis is the symbol of Kappa Kappa Gamma, the women's fraternity started in 1870. You can visit their site here.

VivenLeigh 21:39, 20 January 2007 (UTC)Vivien

[edit] Architecture and fleur-de-lis

Re the question in the edit summaries about the "hidden" section on architecture.

Someone else began this and I added to it, but then I started to doubt whether it would ever develop into a good section. It seemed difficult to make this more than a rather OR-ish list of architectural features which often use the fleur-de-lis in the design. Perhaps an architecture specialist could advise? --HJMG 09:36, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Hello there, never have left a comment on Wiki, so bare with me...

In the symbolism/art/religion section I am a little confused. To my knowledge the fleur de lis was always the symbol for the iris. In the section in question there is a lot of mention about the iris actually being called the lily and its connection with chastity, purity and the Virgin Mary. It should be noted that in many early secular pieces the flower depicted in NOT an iris, but rather the white lily [or "Easter lily" if you prefer]. In my teaching, the white lily has always been the traditional symbolism for the Trinity, chastity, purity, and the Virgin Mary...not the fleur de lis. [See: the Merode Altarpiece by Campin, selections from the Book of Hours, etc.]

Does anyone know a little more about this? Are they interchangable symbols? Four years of art history and all I can muster is a pile of questions and confusion! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.83.133.248 (talk) 14:20 31 May 2007

Holy crap did I just singlehandedly wipe out all the other discussions? Oh no....if i did I am SO SORRY.165.83.133.248 14:33, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Borbon's monarchs and Fleur de lis

The Fleur de lis is a symbol of the old french monarchy. There is no succesor of this house in France as it is a Republic as everyone knows. So this symbol is owned by the Borbon's house and the only European Borbon monarch is the actual king of Spain, Juan Carlos I. So this means that Fleur the lis formerly was a french symbol, but since French Revolution this is only a symbol of Spain. So please correct this mistake as in fact actually Fleur de lis or Flor de Lis is a spanish symbol and no longer french —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.217.208.68 (talk) 12:06, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

To verify this statement please see modern flag of Spain #REDIRECT [[6]] and actual Spanish king "Juan Carlos I" and his heritage of Bourbon´s House. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Carlos_I_of_Spain#Patrilineal_descent

Can you please correct this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manfin2005 (talk • contribs) 15:41, 2 November 2007 (UTC)


"Blood lines", and defining fleur de lis on different levels. A royal symbolisme or not is not an issue. In the beginning it was a lily white for 3nity. and was adopted later by "royals" wanted to identify with Jesus and Mary and the holy 3nity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.108.78 (talk) 17:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Due to the large amount of images in the article, especially in the "Royal symbol" section, neither Firefox or IE will display the page correctly. In Firefox the images sit over the text and in IE there is a large amount of whitespace. I thought at first it would be possible to shuffle them around but because they are used to illustrate parts of the article (as opposed to being pure decoration) that wasn't possible as the images ended up too far away from the relevant section. So I came up with a linkable table and how that works with this article can be seen here. The images stay close to the section they were in and are linked from the relevent portion of the text by the use of letters. I made all the images in the table 100px which enlarged some but did make the flags smaller, from 120px. At the same time this enables the other images in the article to comply with the MOS by removing the 150px setting. What does anybody think. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 21:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)