Talk:Fleet in being

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I am a bit sceptical of the article in its current form. All the quoted examples are presented as relatively successful uses of the fleet-in-being strategy. I am convinced that a historical analysis would come to the conclusion that most uses of this strategy is a waste of resources.

Sensemaker

The Italian example quoted doesn't make sense - Taranto was in November 1940, well before the contested Malta convoys. -- Cyclopaedic 22:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I tried to add a reference to Saddam Husseins use of his airforce as and airforce-in-being but for some reason it turned up as two references. I have tried but failed to correct it. I would appreciate if someone more experienced in wikipedia editing could correct it.

Sensemaker

[edit] Criticisms

I don't quite agree with the above comment ("I am a bit skeptical..."). I certainly think that there's room to criticize the approach and to point out examples where it has been particularly controversial (the effectiveness of Tirpitz' naval theories etc.) but I think a broader criticism of it as a generally unsuccessful strategy that is being given disproportionately positive examples is a bit off. Most people would recognize that the German fleet in being was not tremendously successful; but fleets, armies, "forces in being" have so often exerted a powerful influence without direct involvement that I think any criticism or praise of it should probably be dependant on specific historical contexts.

I'm also wondering somewhat about the statements about it being an obsolete strategy; I would think that there's something fairly perpetual about the notion of "forces in being," including fleets, which while vulnerable to air attack are also probably mobile enough now to allow for fleet-in-being strategies in, for example, coastal naval situations with integrated air defence.

On the whole I liked the article. 142.177.155.152 02:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Good points. Currently there is no problem with too much positive examples of fleet-in-being in the article, quite the contrary actually.
Indeed there is something fairly perpetual about the notion of forces in being. Currently, however, a fleet in a port is so vulnerable that staying in port makes you more vulnerable, not less thus defeating the entire purpose of the strategy. And staying in port is how we have defined the concept of "fleet-in-being" at the beginning of the article. Perhaps future technology will change this allowing us to create almost unimpregnable ports. (Yes, that does sound unlikely but new technology usually does.) Perhaps we should say obsolete for the time being or something to that effect. I fail to find a good choice of word to describe this. I really don't know if a fleet-in-being strategy with a mobile fleet in coastal waters might work but suspect it wouldn't. However, since we have defined the fleet-in-being strategy as staying in port at the beginning of the article your idea of a high mobility semi-hidden isn't a fleet-in-being strategy at all. The way I see it, you must either a) suggest a new definition of the term fleet-in-being that does not involve staying in port, b)suggest that fleets are relatively safe in a port (which quite frankly, would be silly, I don't expect you to suggest that) or c) accept that fleet-in-being strategy is indeed currently obsolete.
I am glad you liked the article.
Sensemaker

Markbassett 23:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC) I will add to questions that the description of it being a harbor strategy may be off -- it was a fleet in being AT SEA, allowing a smaller force to tie down a larger one, achieving strategic purpose by avoiding tactical action. I note the contrary example in Napoleonic era of the French fleets in harbor; these were blockaded, so instead it was the British force which was smaller and achieving it's strategic ends of not being invaded or having commerce stopped. The French also lost strategically in that the immobile fleets could not exercise sailing to train crews, nor do fleet manuevers, whereas the German fleets in WW I and II in the Baltic could exercise their crews.

You are quite right, Markbassett. Fleet-in-being interpreted as a strategy or operational doctrine of staying in port and still exerting influence is very different from fleet-in-being interpreted as a stragegy or operational doctrine of going to sea but avoiding tactial engagement. I do not know if the word "Fleet-in-being" is used to describe the latter strategy/operational method. If someone can tell us if the word is used in this sense, please tell us. If it is, we need to redefine the word so it includes both interpretations and discuss them separately. -Sensemaker

[edit] Expansion of details

Markbassett 23:01, 31 August 2007 (UTC) I am thinking of ideas for material to the article, in particular as follows. Would appreciate suggestions of folks as to what to do with these. [* A cite to the mentioned Mayher work http://books.google.com/books?id=xv8AAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1&dq=#PPR1 ... not sure if this would better be a citation or a reference, but it seems where the modern usage stems from. [* Cite to where Mahan attributes the phrase to Torrington http://books.google.com/books?id=dw7VUrd2CsQC&pg=PA242&dq=fleet+in+being+torrington&num=100&sig=9d5Ue0p_4XrO4nXiwLzAAXS6lIg [* Mention that he used it in his courtmartial defense, makes me want to cite the courtmartial (not found), or the orders for him to attack (not found) [* Links to Lord Torrington's battle, the invasion it was to aide, are possible but seem a bit off-topic. [* Addition that per Geoffrey Till, "fleet in being" played a part back to the Peloponnesian War (citation needed), although the terms modern use derives from Mahan from Torrington's actions and his defense in courtmartial. (citation needed) [* Other links such as http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/fleet-in-being.htm