Talk:Flamenco

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[edit] Flamenco song forms

I've started putting in a list of the flamenco song forms. I think it's probably best just to name them here and give each one a separate page to describe its characteristics. On the other hand it might be better to have pages for cante jondo, cante chico etc. and use those to describe all the relevant forms. This page is still very much a work in progress and would definitely benefit from some more expert input. Magnus 12:11 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)

Hi Magnus, I've reclassified the song forms. The previous form only had compás as its only criterium for classification, but the usual classification takes other things into account, like their origin: some forms are considered subclassification of other forms, as it happens with the palos inside the cantiñas group. Besides, some forms were not classified depending on their real compás: there was no category for the tango rhythm, for example. I intend to do some more work on this part of the article. I think this part of the article should be treated as a kind of map, with only titles and a very basic description of the groups, and then they should point to a more complete article on the palo itself. BTW, I've also started an article about malagueñas.GemmaMS 22:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More deletions

Deletion: "The art of flamenco dance was immediately defined in the contrast between male and female styles." from the "Golden Age" section. I think this comment is out of the scope of this section. Also, I've never heard that this differentition must haev come at this particular time in history: it must be a lot older, and it's typical of many folklores. GemmaMS 18:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Deletion: "Julián Arcas was one of the first composers to write flamenco music especially for the guitar." Julián Arcas never wrote "flamenco" pieces. He was always a classical guitarist. He wrote pieces some pieces which were inspired by flamenco, but composing flamenco pieces is quite different. In his turn, he probably influenced flamenco guitarists. But this sentence is misleading. It would be interesting, though, to write an article about the mutual influence of flamenco and classical guitar. GemmaMS 18:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding song forms, I notice that Tango points to the Argentinian Tango. I understand that that is a form quite distinct from the Tangos Flamenco. Will check with my expert. Any direct knowlege out there? --Davout 14:04, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Totally distinct! An article on flamenco tango has to be created (and a corresponding disambiguation page). GemmaMS 22:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origins of flamenco

Esto es una ñorda racista e ignorante, Flamenco is Andalusian!, not gypsy or spanish, ANDALUSIAN.

clarification: although flamenco originated mainly in Andalusia, other regions such as Murcia and Extremadura have done an extensive contribution to some of its palos. Besides, at a later stage in its development it was "exported" to other parts of the Spanish state and even abroad: this involved a growing number of excellent flamenco artists who were not born in Andalucía, some of which have left a seminal legacy, like Ramón Montoya. On the aspect of race, flamenco, is not an exclusive creation of the gypsies, either, but certainly without their contribution flamenco would be a very different thing. GemmaMS 22:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
and I add: without the non-gypsies it would also be very differentGemmaMS 22:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

been reading up about origins of flamenco, and would like to point out that it has absolutely nothing to do with the sephardim. they left spain in 1492 (edict of explusion), well over 400yrs before flamenco emerged. according to a paper by alvarez cabellero read out at the flamenco history conference in 1997, flamenco history can be divided into 5 areas which i have summarised below:

(1) preflamenco (pre1765) andalusian gypsy, and popular non-gypsy influences
(2) the era of the "primitives" (c.1765-1860) not sure what he means by this
(3) the "Golden Age" (ca. 1860-1910) dance cafes
(4) the era of the opera flamenca (c.1910-1955) influence from the americas, flamenco on the concert stage
(5) the "renaissance" (c.1955-1985) guitar, singing, dancing as a performance art etc

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.248.253 (talk) 15:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

i take it back. i am not sure whether the music of the sephardim had anything to do with it...conversos remained after the edict of expulsion...documentation is complicated coz they would've been killed if anyone knew they were still practicing jews. hmmm... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.199.139 (talk) 13:41, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other comments

I suggest that the term flamenco is too generalized. The article itself is losin

The article says that the style started with accompaniment and without. Any idea which is correct? No, it isn't, of course. Should be better explained.GemmaMS 20:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes you write "Andalusia" and sometimes "Andalucia"... is this okay?

[edit] History: Overview

Still needs reworking, but I've removed some repetitions and inaccurate parts:

  • "Flamenco singers are specifically renowned for their somewhat harsh and natural vocal quality. This style is meant to evoke the nature of suffering so closely related to the origins of the music."

- This is prejudice, in the period between 1955 and our days, these "harsh" voices have been predominant. But if you listen to the records between 1900 and 1955, most of the voices are in fact quite thin, incredibly supple and capable or reaching very high notes. Many types of voices have coexisted in flamenco since early times. In the book Escenas andaluzas by Estébanez Calderón, written in 1847, we can read a conversation between two of the most famous Gypsy cantaores: El Planeta, and El Fillo. The latter was known for his extremely harsh voice, so harsh that this type of voice has come to be known among flamenco fans as afillá. El Planeta, the older master, tells the young "El Fillo", talking about another harsh-voiced singer, El Broncano, that "Broncano's voice is harsh and unacceptable and his style is not elegant, and not from this land, so I beg you (...) not to walk in his waters: stay in the old path, and don't move an inch from it." The whole episode can be read (in Spanish) in the Instituto Cervantes virtual library: (deleted link, sorry, the Biblioteca Cervantes has exaggerated rules to link to it, including even the type of font which must be used (!!!). GemmaMS 20:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fandangos, from Málaga?

I've deleted the following sentence: "It is almost certain that fandangos are folk forms which originated in Málaga, Spain." Strange, I've been into flamenco for years and I've never heard this theory. Certainly, the malagueñas and some other fandango styles come from Málaga. But there are many theories about the origin of fandango, and they're out of the scope of a general article about flamenco. GemmaMS 22:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I've also deleted this one: "There are early song and dance forms that appear to be direct forebears of flamenco. These are the romances and jacaras, both of which guard one of the basic compas patterns of flamenco. As well, the zarabandas and the early fandangos guarded a compas "abandalao". The compas of the fandangos is still sung in the province of Málaga." The first part is about the romances and jácaras is a repetition of other ideas. I've never heard that zarabandas had compás abandolao: compás abandolao is a regular 6/8, totally different. And Málaga, again!! There must have been somebody from Málaga here! The eternal habit of flamenco fans (and many critics) to set the origins of everything in their backyard. GemmaMS

I always thought Fandangos were from Huelva?--Burgas00 (talk) 18:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Burgas, I've always heard that fandangos are traditionally from Huelva. --Gibmetal 77talk 17:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Palos

Deleted: "The most fundamental palos are: Toná, Soleá, Fandango and Seguiriya. These four palos all belong in the cante jondo category and form the rhythmic basis for nearly all the other palos." I've deleted this sentence for the following reasons:

  • It leaves totally out the palos in 4/4 metre, which are also considered "basic"... whatever "basic" means in flamenco (a rather controversial category).
  • Fandango is not traditionally considered "jondo", although this is controversial.GemmaMS 16:08, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Also deleted: "The cante jondo, called the mother of flamenco, consists of 12 beats, with accents on the 3rd, 6th, 8th, 10th, and 12th beats. Songs are composed of several falsetas with rhythms defined by the song form."

Cante jondo is NOT defined by its compás, but, traditionally on the basis of two factors:

  • Its serious, pathetic nature
  • Its Gypsy, origin (by contrast with palos with Andalusian folkloric origin, with Ibero-American influences, etc.
  • Songs are not composed of falsetas: falsetas are not sung!

Tonás, for example are traditionally considered as "cante jondo"... and they have no recognisable "compás". GemmaMS 16:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Deleted: "Flamenco cante consists of a number of traditional (and not-so-traditional) forms, with characteristic rhythmic and harmonic structures. The rhythm (compas) is perhaps the most fundamental distinguishing feature of the different flamenco forms." It is redundant information. GemmaMS 16:17, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The rise of flamenco

This section was full of outdated theories, probably taken from books written in the sixties or earlier. Those theories have been exposed from modern research.GemmaMS 18:10, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flamenco guitar

Hi all. Any help with Flamenco guitar would be appreciated. 30% of the current page was written by me surfing the net and writing things as I thought they were important (no copy-paste, though).

-- TimNelson 11:01, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flamenco Guitar

!!! DYLAN HUNT IS NOT A FLAMENCO GUITARIST !!!

I am not sure how to go about this (editing), but there is a comment on this page refering to guitarists not playing by themselves any more (which is arguable), "except for a few guitarists like "Dylan Hunt" and Gerardo Núñez". Who is Dylan Hunt? The link takes you somewhere that does not portray a guitarist (some futuristic movie).

Apologies if this is not the place or the procedure for this edit.

==== Juan Antonio Martínez==== I can be reached at jams777 at hotmail 84.77.119.186 09:11, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What weasel words is the tag referring to?

If the "weasel words" are identified, they can be discussed and rewritten. If no one can identify them, then I think the tag should go. --Antonio.sierra 04:54, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] flamenc=gitano??

according to the spanish article, Borrow mistaked flamenc with gypsies because of the colonies of germens and flemish (flamencos in spanish) that were placed there to combat bandoleers.Lots of them joined the criminals.As many bandoleers were gypsies to begin with...the term was confusing for Borrow.

Durante el siglo XVIII el asistente Olavide pretendió combatir el bandolerismo instaurando colonias de catolicos alemanes y flamencos (tenidos por disciplinados y laboriosos) en el Alto Guadalquivir. El fracaso de adaptación de muchos de ellos engrosó las filas de las bandas de asaltadores en los que los gitanos ya eran numerosos, pudiéndose producir una confusión entre el término flamenco (que a la vez designaba también de manera jergal a la navaja) y las gentes marginales. Dicha confusión es registrada por Borrow en su viaje por España. --Brownarthur (talk) 18:38, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject

¡Hola! I've been pondering for a while on the idea of having a WikiProject Flamenco. I think there are quite a number of flamenco related articles that could be grouped within the WikiProject in order to improve them and create new ones. Does anyone else think there's scope for this project? --Gibmetal 77talk 15:52, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Phrygian Mode etc

Hi, I was doing some research for my spanish A-level (a project on flamenco etc) and I noticed in the music section that it refers to guitarrists playing 'IN' the mode. A mode is certainly not a way of doing something like on an electrical item (where on say...a clock one might say that it is in 12/24 hour mode) it is a word of a similar meaning to 'scale' but thay are usually more obscure to western classical tradition where scales come from. I think the appropriate terminology would be: playing using the phrygian/dorian mode (not 'in' it).

Just to clarify who I am to write about things like this, I am studying music A-level and have extensive knowladge of music and music terminology as it is something that really interests me anyway. I have knowladge of what a dorian mode is anyway and so I know I am right when referring to the terminology of this article. Adam2307 (talk) 18:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)