Talk:Flags of the Confederate States of America

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There is no support or references given here by whoever made these comments (probably a yankee) about the validity of the Confederate Flag, especially the one commonly accepted by the true Confederates and their descendants. Most of these Flags were never seen by or displayed by true Confederates, except the latter, and we certainly were not on ships. Its amazing how many ship flags were found in Southerners attics... -- 12.36.152.153 (moved from article page to here by John Owens (talk) 03:22, 2004 Jul 9 (UTC)

Also, that "bonnie blue" flag didn't symbolize The Confederacy as a whole, but the independent states before they united. The logic was that if 20 or so stars symbolized 20 or so states united, then one star symbolized one star staning alone.

I'm from Georgia and I've never heard of that last flag being used as a naval flag. I have no idea why someone would think that...

What was originally designed The Naval Jack was used at times on land such as by the army of Tennessee. There were in fact many local/regiment battle flags in addition to the general square saltire version. The popularity of the saltire flag being used almost exclusively by veteren groups started as far back as the 1880s in preference to what were seen as either "political" or local flags. Almost inevitably to be consistent with most other flags, there was a preference established for a rectangular version and it is no wonder that more flags of this type are now found in attics. However, to suggest the wide use of the flag civicly and among land based forces at the time of the civil war is somewhat anachronistic and it remains historically correct to refer to it as a naval jack. Dainamo 11:46, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] South Carolina flag

Just to explain, I cut South Carolina from the controversy section because the issue with SC wasn't that the state flag was changed during the 1960s but that the government started flying the Confederate banner alongside the U.S. national and SC state flags above the statehouse. The NAACP (and other) boycott persuaded the state to move the flag from above the statehouse; the Palmetto banner was not redesigned in 2000.

The removed text in question:

South Carolina incorporated the Confederate Battle Flag into the state flag in 1962. Due to a boycott by the NAACP and related organizations, the state legislature chose to redesign the flag in 2000.

Carter 16:42, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)


That is strange! Everything I read seriously implied (or outright stated) that the SC flag had a Confederate emblem. This must be a fairly widespread misconception. Either that, or the media is just trying to create more controversy than the issue merits. Here is an article from 7 Nov 2004: Kentucky Lexington-Herald Leader A quote from the article: "The NCAA does not allow schools in states that have Confederate symbols on their flags -- only Mississippi and South Carolina -- to host events..." I was fooled! Odd indeed. --L.D. Bear 01:39, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think I can explain this. In recent years, some entities have created a flag that blends the CSA Naval Jack and the SC/NC flags. See here for a picture: [1] and [2]. These flags are unofficial and has no connection with the NC/SC Governments. For more, see FOTW. If you really want one, [3] has plenty of products with the flags on them. - Hoshie/Crat 05:38, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)


I think that it should still be in the section. Something along the lines of stating how, although the design is not represented in the official state flag, the Confederate Flag is often displayed alongside the state flag.--206.21.168.100 (talk) 21:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bonnie Blue Flag

I think the "Bonnie Blue Flag" should be transfered from this page to its own separate page. Strictly speaking, it is not a "Confederate Flag". Unlike the other flags on this page, it was never officially used to represent the CSA. A detailed discussion of this flag, and its use as the flag of the Republic of West Florida would be better located on a different page. --JW1805 03:10, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

  • An expanded article on this flag is now at Bonnie Blue Flag.
  • We have a minor rvt war going on about this, I see. We should discuss it here on the talk page. I don't see any reason why this page should contain so much duplicated information that is already at the Bonnie Blue Flag article. This page should stick to flags that were unique to the Confederacy. --JW1805 17:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Although not an official flag, it was widely used to represent the confederacy prior to the adoption of the official flags. It was a well known Southern symbol for rebellion and discontent in West Florida and later Texas. It is mentioned in the article, and was influential to civil war songs, literature, and post civil war fiction (Bonnie Blue Butler). It clearly belongs in the category of "Other Flags". 155.84.57.253 17:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I don't think it ever really was used to represent "the Confederacy" as a whole. As you say, certainly not in any official way. It was mainly used before the Confederacy was even created, in the early months of 1861. Its usage as a Southern symbol in West Florida, and influence on Texas and California also has nothing to do with the Confederacy. Since its usage predates the Civil War, and it has its own article, I don't see any need to duplicate all that info on this page. The current mention with a link should be enough. --JW1805 20:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm no expert on this, but what I read at GA flag indicates that it was more of a state flag showing their intention to seceede. Bubba73 (talk) 18:42, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
That's interesting. We should add a link to that site to this page. --JW1805 20:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Even in Canada, we know that the Bonnie Blue Flag was important to the secessionist movement and the early days of the Confederacy. A picture of it really should be included. WolframSiever 18:39, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
    • But the name of the article isn't "Flags used by sucessionists", or "Flags used in the South", it is "Flags of the Confederate States of America". And this just isn't one. --JW1805 18:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] License plates

"In North Carolina, vehicle owners can request a license plate from the state featuring the Sons of Confederate Veterans logo, which incorporates a Confederate Battle Flag." - Also in Virginia [4]-LtNOWIS 00:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sons of Confederate Veterans Tags

I know that they are available in Tennessee also, as I have one on my truck and so does my uncle.

[edit] Why Was the Image of the 3rd National Flag Reverted?

In October I replaced the image of the 3rd national flag with one that had the dimensions as laid out in the 1865 flag law. Sometime in the past week this image was reverted to the earlier image which has the wrong dimensions. Why was this done? Nicholas F 01:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Request Verification

I would like some information of affirm the following statement made in the article;

Others see it as a symbol of the institution of slavery not knowing that Abraham Lincoln, prior to secession, offered the Southern States a 13th Amendment [Congress shall make no laws affecting the instituition of (slavery)...thereby making it permanent]

I'm not sure on this and I think there should be some verification to this.

Likewise. It was recently re-added in this form:
  • To many in the US South it is simply a symbol of their heritage and pride in their ancestors who held out during years of war under terrible odds and sacrifice. Others see it as a symbol of the institution of slavery not knowing that Abraham Lincoln, prior to secession, offered the Southern States a 13th Amendment [Congress shall make no laws affecting the instituition of (slavery)...thereby making it permanent], or of the Jim Crow laws established by the US Congress enforcing racial segregation in the Southern States for almost a century later.
We don't know what "many" think, nor do we know what they don't know. -Will Beback 01:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
  • That may be talking about the Corwin amendment. But the whole "not knowning... making it permanent" section is completely unnecessary and irrelevant to the topic. --JW1805 (Talk) 00:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reflecting the battle flag's controversial perceptions

I've tried twice now to insert the following block of text under the "Displaying the Flag/Controversy" section. It has been twice removed.

I can't find the Clarion Ledger hit any longer, so have removed that reference. The Cooper/Knotts paper is located at http://paws.wcu.edu/ccooper/beyonddixie.pdf.

To continue to deny that a growing number of African-Americans find the flag offensive, or to deny that it was-- and continues to be-- used as a symbol of white segregation-- fairly or not-- is to deny current history, and not in keeping with the open and accurate philosophy of Wikipedia.

I ask that this text be reinserted in the "Displaying the Flag/Controversy" section.

"More recent studies, however, show changing attitudes toward the Confederate battle flag, particularly among blacks-- perhaps due to greater awareness of the issue stemming from legislative battles regarding the flag's official use in Georgia, Mississippi, and South Carolina. In 2005, two Western Carolina University researchers found that 74% of U.S. African-Americans favored removal of the flag from the South Carolina Capitol building [Cooper & Knotts, 2005]. As battle lines over the use of the flag have (again) hardened, the NAACP and many civil rights groups have attacked the flag. The NAACP maintains an official boycott of South Carolina, citing its continued use of the battle flag on its Statehouse grounds."

[edit] Use of Flags by K.K.K. Historically Not Limited to C.S.A. Flag

I noticed the comments of Scott regarding the Klan's use of the Stars and Stripes. Those interested should view the following:

http://www.genealogyimagesofhistory.com/images2/William%20Joseph%20Simmons.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Stone Mountain, GA, circa 1921

http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/upload/thumb/3/3c/300px-Kkklan.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, 1922 (30,000 members from Chicago and northern Illinois present).

http://www.agpix.com/catalog/AGPix_curtteich/large/AGPix_curtteich_0014_Lg.jpg Ku Klux Klan, Mansfield, Ohio, early 1920s

http://www.ourbaytown.com/images1/klan.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Goose Creek, Texas, circa 1921-23

http://hip.cgu.edu/liss/epstein/KKK2.jpg Ku Klux Klan meeting (women’s auxiliary), New Castle, Indiana, 1923

http://www.liu.edu/cwis/CWP/library/african/west/kkk.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1923

http://www.historyonthenet.com/Slave_Trade/images/kkk.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally (place unknown, circa pre-1920s)

http://www.law.du.edu/jenkins/images/kkk.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Boulder, Colorado, 1925

http://www.ethnociel.qc.ca/Images%20ethnociel/kkk.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Washington, DC, 1925.

http://static.flickr.com/13/18096460_7f0c71bd16.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Montiplier, Vermont, 1927

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Image:Kkk1928.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Washington, DC, 1928.

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/jhs/Images/KKKhouse.jpg (NOTE THE UNION JACK!) Ku Klux Klan meeting, Vancouver, B.C. Oct. 30th, 1935.

http://www.historyworksohio.org/images/thumbnails/AL02904.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Ohio (circa pre-1945)

http://images.indianahistory.org/cgi-bin/thumbnail.exe?CISOROOT=/V0002&CISOPTR=3 Ku Klux Klan meeting, Godfrey Klan No. 93, Hartford City, Indiana (circa pre-1945)

http://www.atlantahighered.org/civilrights/gallery/02.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Atlanta, GA (circa 1940-1946)

and see:

http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/kkk.htm very large collection

http://www.rulen.com/kkk/ another large collection

and see also:

http://media.bestprices.com/content/isbn/69/1567666469.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0822307723.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0195098366.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

http://metascholar.org/MOSC/images/essays/KuKluxKismetcoverl.gif

04:22; 2 September 2006; Fix Bayonets!

[edit] SCV protest of use of Confederate Flag by hate groups

As I recall, documentation* for the above had been provided (by another Wikipedian) as requested on at least two prior occasions. In any event, the SPLC verifies the above, and as we all know, the SPLC is certainly not a defender of the SCV -- to the contrary, the SPLC is perhaps the chief antagonist against the SCV. *SPLC article verifying the above See also *York Daily Record article verifying the above.
--Fix Bayonets! 12:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

This article is rank with POV content and in need of a major overhaul IMhO. - Plasticbadge 06:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Origin

Is there any additional information regarding the creation of the saltire style Confederate Battle Flag? Possibilities for the inspiration behind the saltire design include the Flag of Scotland, the Irish Saint Patrick's Flag, and the Spanish Cross of Burgundy Flag. Thanks! --Dulcimerist 00:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

There's an in-depth description of its creation, intial rejection and ultimate success, and factors in the design and so on, in the book: Coski, John M. "The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem". 2005. Unfortunately I had it checked out of the library and no longer have it at hand. Good source for this info though. William Porcher Miles was the main guy behind the design, if I recall correctly. I can't quite remember, but I think his initial design had the cross upright rather than diagonal. Pfly 01:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It may have initially been designed to go upright rather than diagonal? Grab that book again, as that information would be awesome in this article! That would be something that most people wouldn't know... --Dulcimerist 05:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well you inspired me to do just that! I checked the book out from the library today and edited some pages with info from it. It seems the nitty-gritty details about the flag's origin are a bit more complex than can be described briefly. I will try to return and improve the texts I entered on various pages. Was in a bit of a hurry and not writing as well as I could. Plus I am fairly ignorant of heraldry and flag-terminology. But, thanks for the inspiration. This Coski book on the Confederate flag seems quite well researched, with footnotes citing seemingly obscure primary sources like the archived letters of Civil War people stored in government archives. Perhaps the best researched book on the confederate flag. The bulk of the book is on the flag's changing meaning and use since the Civil War, with only the first chapter or two on the flag's creation and use back in the day. Interesting book. Pfly 08:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! I look forward to the cleaning up of the entry here and there, and might work on it a bit when I've got time. Heraldry is quite fun, although I'm only familiar with heraldic crosses of nearly 200 designs. (I'm a nerd who specializes.) --Dulcimerist 09:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 14 Stars?!?

Why does the new image of the Stars and Bars have 14 stars? This is certainly a mistake. The Flags of the World site claims that the most common version (41% of those surviving) have 11 stars. This is the version that should be illustrated. Nicholas F 00:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for reducing the number of stars to 13, but I still believe it would be better to illustrate either the first version (7 stars) or the most common version (11 stars) rather than the extremely rare 13 star version. Also, looking a photos of surviving versions as well as contemporary prints, the diameter of the circle is too large in relation to the canton. And if I may be permitted one additional nit to pick on, for consistency it would be better if the shades matched those of the 2nd and 3rd national flags illustrated on the page. Nicholas F 01:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 13 Stars?!?

I think something is messed up in the article. It says that the 13 stars on the battle flag represent the 11 states with Kentucky and Missouri. It links to a rather dubious looking site confirming this. I was always told that the 13 stars represented the original 13 colonies -- as the confederates saw themselves as the "real" successors to the founding fathers. If the bit about Kentucky and Missouri were true, than why wouldn't the flag also incorporate Maryland or Delaware for a total of 15 stars -- as they were also "occupied". I really think this section in the article needs better documentation.

The Coski book has several statements about star representing states of the Confederacy, with the number reaching 13 when the secessionist factions of Missouri and Kentucky joined in late 1861. Maryland and Delaware never "joined" in this sense, although one of the earliest designs of what became the battle flag had 15 stars. I'll add the ref and, if the website referenced is really dubious, the Coski ref can replace it.. unfortunately references to books are not quite as easy to check as websites, but on the other hand, books tend to stick around longer than websites. :) If I have the time I'll try to clean up the references in general. Pfly 04:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Blood-Stained or Blood-Dipped Banner?

The text for the 3rd National Flag states "It was sometimes called the blood-stained or blood-dipped banner." I believe this to be an anachronism. Can anyone provide a citation for this? The flag was adopted on March 4, 1865. Lee surrendered on April 9 of the same year. Very few people would have even seen the flag in that month's time, making very unlikelty for it to have received a popular nickname. Further, I doubt that the Confederates would have referred to their national flag with the pejorative "blood-stained". These names are more likely to be modern creations. Nicholas F 01:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Enemy of the United States

I thought the United States won the civil war agains the Confederacy. Why would any American consider flying flags of a defeated enemy? --Kvuo 04:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Kvuo, I think that there are many reasons for flying the Confederate Battle flag (please make sure you know the difference, or knowledgable people in the South will rip you a new one). Admittedly, some are racist and fly it to intimidate anyone who disagrees with them. They use it as a symbol by which to rally around and a notion that those were the "good old days." Others fly it because they are proud to be from the South. Not all of the ideals that the Confederacy stood for were bad, the foremost being states rights, so some people view their pride in the good things that it stands for (it must also be taken into account that the US flag also flew over slave states, but no reasonable person protests those who use it. The reason is that the US changed. IMHO so did the South. We do not believe is slavery nor do we believe it should be reinstated. Lumping us with those who are racists can be tenuous at best.). — BQZip01 — talk 05:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

---

[edit] Stop! this Maddness Nobody cares anymore

I think people should let go of the past and look foward to the future. The slaves are free, the war has been over for a century. What more does this country needs right now. We banned the Swastika for a good reason and that was six decades ago when it came in being.

User:Harbingeur —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.178.228 (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Georgia Flag

The Georgia flag still incorporates a design extremely similar to the Stars and Bars.

Comparison:

— BQZip01 — talk 16:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spurrier

I removed the last line about Steve Spurrier and the SC flag issue. In the article cited, he did not say that the flag hurt his recruiting of players. In fact, he specifically said (though not in the cited article) that it did NOT have an effect.Reeeems 17:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Georgiaflags.jpg

Image:Georgiaflags.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 09:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] "most Southerners were descendants of the Ulster migrations"

An interesting claim - citation / reference on this? --mgaved 08:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confederate Battle Flag should have its own article

Seems to me the controversy over it and its unique history both during and well after the Civil War make it noteworthy enough, and unique enough from general flags of the Confederacy, to warrant its own article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.106.28 (talk) 23:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Superfluous Edit

Since it is established in previous content of the article that the battle flag is known to be displayed at many locations by many groups with varying meanings and reasons attributed to its being displayed, it is unreasonable to remove text that establishes a connection with extremist or hate groups such as the Ku Klux Klan.KDACAPELLA 23:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Labeling any edit as "superfluous" is a bit much IMHO. The KKK certainly uses it, but is only one of several groups that use it. I'm trying not to use language that seems to exclude other groups. See what I put in just a few moments ago. "Extremist" is inaccurate because it includes groups like the ALF and ELF, which don't use the symbol. — BQZip01 — talk 00:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Naval jack or ensign?

No proper command of English. When you say "jack", are you referring to the bow secondary flag (the "jack") or to the main poop flag (that is, what the British call "ensign")? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] South Carolina Sovereignty Flag

Is it true that the "Southern Cross" (the Confederate most widespread battle flag) was based on the so-called South Caroline Sovereignty Flag, flown by Seccessionists in 1860?

It doesn't appear to be a very big stretch from the photo shown here. Sf46 (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Considering those "photos" are made in Paint, I'm going to err on the side of caution on this. Maybe someone should email the Museum of the Confederacy; after all, they DO have the largest collection of Confederate flags (and have a rather large picture book about the collection). SiberioS (talk) 04:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
According to the Coski book it is true. I hadn't seen a picture of the flag though. But it looks pretty much like what Coski describes. Pfly (talk) 04:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Battle Flag in Eastern Europe and Berlin

I have read in various places that the battle flag was flown in various parts of eastern Europe when the Soviets withdrew. Does anyone know where I can find confirmed sources of that? Perhaps images or video. ThorsMitersaw —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.231.215.4 (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about that but it's also supposedly been used in Africa by black Africans who were revolting against corrupt post-colonial governments. Sf46 (talk) 17:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I doubt both. After all, wouldn't you use your own national flag? And most African secessionist and rebel groups use their own flags (of which there is a wide variety of). The only websites that mention such a claim are neo-confederate websites, and they don't seem to show any photos or video either SiberioS (talk) 01:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Forgotten Confederate Flags (State Flags)

Hey Y'ALL forgot to mention the other Confederate Flags, you know state flags like the Virginia Flag and North Carolina Flag? They're both Confederate Flags and were used as Confederate Battle Flags. When the Southern States began joining the Confederacy their love for more State Sovereignty led them to create official State Flags. Virginia did not adopt an official flag until after it had seceded from the Union in 1861. The Flag of the Commonwealth was adopted on April 30, 1861 almost two weeks after Virginia voted, on April 17, 1861, to repeal its 1788 ratification of the Constitution of the United States.

THE VIRGINIA FLAG AND OTHERS ARE CONFEDERATE FLAGS TOO!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.105 (talk) 23:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some sections biased

Generally a good article. I was, however, rather put off by the Georgia post-war flag section. The previous author linked the entire phrase "a large part of Georgia's electorate" to the article "Racists". Wow. That's probably one of the most biased, POV, and ridiculous links I've ever come across.

Anyway, I removed the link, but kept the sentence (since it did, in fact, upset quite a few Georgians). If anyone disagrees, please reply. I have a lot to offer on that particular point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theboondocksaint (talk • contribs) 04:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)