Talk:Flag of Turkey

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[edit] Comments

[edit] Comment

The legend that gives the design of the Turkish flag as being due to the events during the fall of Constantinople were related to me by user:Adam_Carr who heard that story while visiting Turkey

ThaGrind 01:38, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC)


Hi. I have added an interlink to Turkish page. The page there is a stub but the flag there has correct ratio and has the white stripe which is in the definition of Turkish flag. The flag in English and other Wikipedias need to be fixed. ato 07:17, 18 May 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Barjak

A name for the Croatian flag is also "barjak". Anybody an idea if that's somehow similar to bajrak or am I just wrong... --Neoneo13 00:08, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, "bayrak" is the general name for "flag" in Turkish, I guess this is the same in both languages. Atilim Gunes Baydin 20:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "the" circle around the star

Under "construction" there are a couple refferences to "the circle around the star". There is no circle around the star in the flag, so describing an imaginary circle placed around the star isn't very accurate. Would it be better to substitute "A" for "the"?

[edit] Another Legend

The Flag of Byzantium

In 670 BC, the citizens of Byzantium claimed the crescent moon as their state symbol, after winning a battle, which they attributed to Artemis, the Greek goddess of the hunt, whose symbol was the crescent moon.[1] Other ancient cultures might have worshipped the sky, moon and stars but Byzantium was the first governing state to use it as their national symbol. In 330 AD Constantine I added the Virgin Mary's star to the flag. When the city fell to the Ottomans in 1453 they saw this flag with the Crescent all over Constantinople and took it as their own which the Turkish Flag and many other Muslim nations have inherited ever since.

The crescent moon and star were not completely abandoned by the Christian world after the fall of Constantinople. To date the Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem official church flag is a lavarum of white with a church building with two towers and on either side of the arms, at the top, are the outline in black of a crescent moon facing center, and a star/stars with rays.[2]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium[/url]

So why call this a theory? This is evidence and fact, not a dream of Attaturk's like the other 'stories' LOL. Reaper7 00:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

What the?? Since when are the stars, the moon and other astronomical creations the property of one nation or empire??? Quote: "As far as I'm aware the crescent and star combination has a heritage directly linked to the Babylonian cult of Inana (who if I'm not mistaken was usually depicted as crowned with the crescent and star combination) - and with the numerous other equivalent female fertility cults of near eastern antiquity (e.g., the cult of Isis). Its subsequent adoption as an Islamic symbol is similar to the Christian appropriation of pagan symbolism elsewhere (e.g., the various European "Black Madonnas"), and is testament to the persistence of ancient systems of belief into late antiquity and early modern times." How about that for a theory?? So let's stop this effort to appropriate everything in Turkey to Greeks and Byzantines.. Now that you mentioned it, maybe I should go to the Byzantium article and mention this.. Baristarim 22:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
NO obviously you are confused severely, what I am saying, is that it is a little more than a coincidence to anyone with 20% of a brain the fact that the flag of byzantium at the time of its fall to the Turks was a moon and star, this should not be grouped in the theories section like Attaturk's dreams, LOL. But please - what I posted was obviously not for you, don't care if the Byzantiums got it off the Eygptians who got it off Martians - that is not the point, it was the flag of Byzantium and that is fact and that is where the Turks aquired it, and it is a little more than a 'theory' to a non Asiaitic Turk. Reaper7 22:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
No, not neccessarily.. It didnt originate from the Byzantines [1], so it is quite possible that Turks got it from the other peoples of the Middle East and Persia before - please see this [2].. It explicitly states that this symbol has been assumed as being transferred via battles, but the true origin is the cultural movements of the Middle East.. Seljuq Turks and other Muslim Turkic tribes used this symbol on various occasions before the fall of Constantinople.. OTOH, I agree that there are certain legends mentioned in that page, and they should be clearly labelled as such.. Baristarim 23:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

By the way I changed the title of that Chapter to "Another Legend" from "In Reality" since we all know that reality is quite a subjective topic... Isn't it my Greek Brothers? --Eae1983 (talk) 01:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

I noticed that the image on the right which shows the crescent moon and Jupiter lined up was from the Battle of Kosovo, not the battle of Manzikert, as the text in the body of the article suggests. Someone should clear up this ambiguity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Oreo Priest (talk • contribs) 21:57, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] BYZANTIUM

Firstly the information in this section of the Article is not a legend, so listing it at the end of 3 legends with a bullet point is ridiculous. Secondly this section is about the highly plausible theory that like all the Byzantium titles and traditions Mehmed II adopted for his newly extended Empire, the flag flying over Byzantium that day the city fell was also adopted. Turkic migration has no bearing on this small section of the article as a counter-weight. What is not being claimed:

  • Byzantiums invented the symbol.
  • Byzantiums are the only ones to use the symbol.
  • Mehmet II and the Ottomans definately copied the flag.

So there is no need to drown the small section in repeated attempts to show that a turk at some point passed through a nation that had used the symbol at some point as a hopeless counter.

What is being claimed:

  • The flag of Byzantium, crescent moon and star was flying over Byzantium when as the Turks arrived to lay siege.
  • Byzantium was the first state to use the symbols as national state symbols.

Turkic migration through any country that also happened to at some point use these symbols, (most of which Greeks also passed through in the 4th century BC and traded with before..) has no bearing on this theory and when it is included looks very much like a weak attempt at nationalism as is the repeated mention of the Babylonian and Eygptian use which is already mentioned at the top and repeated here seemingly just to reinforce the hope that the symbol is not 100% Byzantium or Ancient Greek. What is required is a seperate section, ie not under and completing a list of legends as it is now, ie properly sign posted and also the deletion of weak nationalistic counter such as Turkic migration after the sentance depicting that byzantium was the first state to adopt the symbols as national symbols.

The example of Baristarim trying to save so weird national pride when there is no need to be defensive is:

'Nevertheless, Byzantium was the first governing state to use the crescent moon as its national symbol, even though Turks passed Mesopotomia much before coming to Istanbul during their migration from Central Asia Reaper7 03:19, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

We went over this before. I changed the section title to "theories and legends" - I know that those sleep theories are legends. Nevertheless, don't forget that Isis and Sumerians existed much before the Macedonian invasions, sorry!! The Byzantium theory is a theory, not saying the contrary - nevertheless, you are convinced that this is the case, which makes it POV, that's all.. The article needs a bit more work, I will give you that, but there is no reason to create a seperate section for the Byzantium theory.. Well, the Turkic migrations is definitely relevant, since it concerns the Flag of Turkey and symbols used by Turks. You might blame me for pushing a POV, but you also seem to be pushing a POV by saying that Macedonians invaded Sumeria and all, read the sources clearly - they say that the crescent and star was used as a fertility symbol thousands of years before. So your mention of the Macedonian invasions is also to reinforce the hope that the symbol must have been 100percent Ancient Greek/Byzantium. You see what I mean? :)) Baristarim 03:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Please watch for WP:CIVIL, constantly accusing me of nationalism is not correct. What "saving national pride"? Are you joking?? :)) I know that the star and crescent was a pagan Mesopotamian symbol and that the Turks adopted it, I am not saying that it came through because of a dream!! Believe me, I am more scientific thatn you give me credit for. It has been long established that the star and crescent was a Ancient Egyptian and/or Mesopotamian symbol, and couldn't care less about "national symbol of a state" - religious symbols back in the day were much more important.. Baristarim 03:32, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

This is about the Byzantium section, not the whole article, if you can get your mind around that idea, we are making progress. Again I repeat No one is claiming:

  • Byzantiums invented the symbol.
  • Byzantiums are the only ones to use the symbol.
  • Mehmet II and the Ottomans definately copied the flag.

Not even the Byzantium Article claims it was not already an ancient symbol, do you understand these simple words?

So there is no need to drown the small section in repeated attempts to show that a turk at some point passed through a nation that had used the symbol at some point as a hopeless counter.

What is being claimed:

  • The flag of Byzantium, crescent moon and star was flying over Byzantium when as the Turks arrived to lay siege.
  • Byzantium was the first state to use the symbols as national state symbols.

The fact that symbol is old has nothing to do with the Byzantium theory. It is about how the Turks came to adopt the symbol, not who invented it. We already know the symbols are ancient at the top of the theories section, no matter how much you desire to drown out the Byzantium section with this. It is already stated above (please read this carefully, i will repeat) It is already stated that the symbol has ancient roots above the section on Byzantium. What this section is about is not how the Byzantiums got the symbol unfortunately for your arguement, but how the Byzantiums used this symbol and how it is highly plausible as THE ONLY STATE TO FIRST USE THE SYMBOLS AS NATIONAL SYMBOLS, the Turks borrowed the symbols. Whether the Turks traveled through Places Greeks also went through has no bearing as this section is clearly about how when Istanbul was sieged, the only side Flying these symbols on a flag were the Byzantiums. This however is obviously criptic to you and I am sure you will repeat your line about how Turks traveled through Babylon as some bizarre hope that it is relevant under this specific Byzantium section. The board of mediation will have to look at this I am afraid. Reaper7 03:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Ohh "the Board of Meditation"!! Am I supposed to be afraid? It is a voluntary procedure, go read it please. Do not copy your statements that you had posted before. I made modifications to address some of your points. And if you call me a nationalist-POV pusher or use ridiculing statements again, than I will report you. I am done here, have fun.. And watch for WP:3RR along the way... Baristarim 03:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)


Firstly there are no threats, all anyone should want is a good article on this important flag of Turkey for the neutral, not the Turkish nationalist and not the Greek. As the article stands with your last mod i think it is much improved and am far more happy with it as a wiki article. Reaper7 03:55, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

No worries.. I agree with you, and you should have also believed me when I had told you that I hadn't written the article and I was trying to do my best with what was available, and that I wasn't pushing a nationalist agenda. I know that crescent and star is not a Turkic symbol.. I favor talking things over and trying to improve articles bit by bit until issues are addressed. I hope that the article will improve in the future and know that it still needs some improvements.. But just remember that I am not here to do blind reverts or anything. Cheers! Baristarim 04:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You talk about things like "Turks" "definately" (which you can't even write right) copied it and can't even come up with documents to prove your point. Please come with plausible documentation before you write "BYZANTIUM" (like a crying baby, might I add)trying to own the flag. Please participate in the debate academically instead of using useless nationalist comments. You should come up with an example at least AS PLAUSIBLE as the Kosovo battle, that we still qualify as a "legend" being Turks ourselves to have a better figure in the "Legends" section...

Cheers, Eae1983

I've got to agree with Reaper here, it sounds nothing more than a poor excuse for nationalism. The thing is, the Byzantines were teh only state using this symbol at the present time, historical migrations over areas which were inhabited by people who at one point or another may or may not have used the crescent moon belong on another page. Unless you can back up with evidence then the assertion that the Turks may have adopted the symbol from some kind of old ruin in Mesopotamia remains simply conjectural, nothing more. Also, I must add that I find Turkish denial of their appropriation of Greek culture quite hilarious in many respects, I mean, they always claim we 'steal' 'their' culture, yet when it is pointed out they have stolen culture of Byzantium they start inventing conjectural bullshit about 'old turks'. I've often found this quite funny, the whole 'well its just a coincidence the Ottomans and the Byzantine Greeks shared X cultural similarity because cultural point X was practicsed by old 'Turkic' tribes. --NeroDrusus 05:58, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
OK look, you can agree with whoever you want, but as long as you do not have proof, you can NOT write things as "in reality it is BYZANTINE", now can you? (please note the excessive fervor of the greek friends I am quoting when they write "Byzantium" in capitals). If I qualify the battle of Kosovo thingie as a LEGEND and not a fact, you cannot qualify something even older than that, for which you have no valid proof as a FACT. On the other hand, I totally accept positively any theory you will add as another "legend", as the Byzantine Empire is dead, and the Ottoman Empire is dead, so speaking today with "we"s and "you"s will never denote facts for me.
Cheers!--Eae1983 (talk) 13:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


Everbody PLEASE LOOK AT THAT. Don't talk more about Byzantium... And please get out that very absurd information. Turk flag not interested with Byzantium...

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4803/parach7xa3.jpg

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=7782 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.229.232.162 (talk) 21:44, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Everbody can see and research this... This silver coin From Where!!!! This coin FROM GÖKTÜRKS! CAN YOU SEE CRESCENT AND STAR!!! FROM GÖKTÜRKS... (Kyrgyz Republic- Manas Üniversity TURK CİVİLİZATİONS CONGRESS YEAR:2004 "Gaybullah Dr. Babayar"

Um...that does not look quite like a bicephal eagle to me . AdrianCo (talk) 21:20, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problem with 28 July Theory

I came across the Battle of Kosovo/28th July theory on another page, and checking it it appears to be highly improbable. The Battle of Kosovo was fought on St Vitus' day, 15 June 1389, in the Julian Calendar. The 15th June 1389 Julian was 23rd June Proleptic Gregorian Calendar; St. Vitus' day is celebrated on the 28th June now because of the continuing shift between the calendars (15 June 2007 Julian is 28 June 2007 Gregorian). However, the close approach of Jupiter and the Moon was on 28th July (Gregorian calendar), a month after the battle no matter how you reckon it. That would appear to make the theory impossible, and there's no citation? Bazzargh (talk) 15:19, 3 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Byzantine theory - A critical flaw

The Byzantine theory has no sources to back it up. The Byzantine theory doesn't add up, the flag when Mehmed II conquered was the Double Eagle not a crescent and star as is suggested in the article.

The use of the Crescent and Moon is attributed to BC, prior to contact with Turks.

The Turks meanwhile were also using the crescent and star in Central Asia and the Kayihan Kaganate flag and tamgha incorporated these symbols.

--Torke (talk) 23:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] REALITY - It Will Hurt The Turkish Nationalist, But Is Beautiful To The Turk Who Loves Reality And History Of His Diverse Nation

This whole article is terrible. The Byzantium Empire was the only known Empire to use the crescent moon and star together. Other cultures using a star or a moon separately is totally irrelevant as is Turks crossing through countries that used the star and moon separately. The City of Byzantium first used the star and crescent to represent Artemis, then the symbols took on Christian relevance. By the time the Turks arrived their is NO evidence of them EVER having the crescent and star together. However, the flags flying on Byzantium the day it fell to Islam - and even the coins in the pockets of the Greeks were these and had been for centuries:

http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/cng/076/big/76000205.jpg

http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/cng/072/big/721471.jpg

http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/baldwin/nyc9/00156p00.jpg

http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/gorny/130/thumb01799.jpg

Reaper7 (talk) 01:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


Quote: "The Byzantium Empire was the only known Empire to use the crescent moon and star together".

Answer: No.

Thank you very much for your contribution!

--Eae1983 (talk) 00:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

(PS: Was Hadrianus a Byzantine Emperor? Any dates for these coins?)

Name the other Empire that used the crescent moon and star as the symbol of an empire?

Answer: PATHETIC.

Reaper7 (talk) 01:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Well not being even Turkish or Byzantine, the Arabs at the Time of the Mu'awwiya caliphate did use the crescent and the star.

now will you please stop those childish responses. --Eae1983 (talk) 13:46, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sakarya Theory should be removed

Modern Turkish flag was adopted a century before the Battle of Sakarya. Please remove that theory from the main article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cruist22 (talk • contribs) 15:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)