Talk:Flag of Scotland

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Contents

[edit] Traditional?

Why is the sky blue one marked as the traditional one ? I've never seen a Scottish flag of this Sky Blue colour, so if it is a traditional colour, I doubt that it's a Scottish tradition. Although the colour of the flag does vary a bit, the range is generally between the Royal Blue of the Union flag and a Navy Blue. If you know the legend of the cross in the sky which is the traditional story behind the adoption of the flag, you will understand why the blue is generally dark. I strongly recommend that the Pantone 300 image be used throughout the fart. The Dark Blue one looks very odd to a Scotsman like myself. -- Derek Ross 05:05, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Hungus

Arcturus added the bit about the legend of King Hungus. I'm darned if I can find a reference to Hungus, and there's no-one on List of British monarchs, List of Kings of the Picts, List of Kings of Dalriada, or Kingdom of Strathclyde who sounds Hungus-ey. I figure this is the usual case of folks in olden times being especially liberal about spelling names - does anyone know to whom we can resolve that mean old Hungus redlink? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 12:42, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Finlay,

The battle referred to is the Battle of Athelstaneford c.830. This would give the Pictish King as Oengus, from the Wikipedia list. This website (and many others) give his name as 'Angus Mac Fergus, King of the Picts of Alba'. As you say, liberal spelling of names could be to blame, but Hungus does appear in many sources. It looks like it should be 9th century not 8th. What do you reckon - confirm the century and perhaps change to Oengus (or add note of uncertainty) to tie in with the List of Kings of the Picts?

Arcturus 14:48, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not enough of a history buff to decide. Maybe Derek, who is, will know. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 16:46, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Link to Athelstan should be changed - Date of Battle is c832 but the Athelstan page shows him as being alive 895 – October 27, 939 - Web Sources [1][2] point to Athelstan as being a Nothumbrian leader killed in the battle. --Elwell 13:53, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The Saltire

Should there be a redirect page called The Saltire for this page? And should both words be capitalized, or only the first? The article on saltire only capitalizes the first. Nae'blis 21:56:18, 2005-08-29 (UTC)

The software always capitalises the first letter of an article title (whether you like it that way or not). There would be no harm in having a redirect at The saltire. I think that having that will mean that entering "The Saltire" into the GO box will automatically hit the redirect. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:01, August 29, 2005 (UTC)
Added The Saltire because that was what Google said the most common rendering of the name is, and it *is* a proper noun. Will add the coloquialism to the article. Nae'blis 17:12:00, 2005-08-30 (UTC)

[edit] Difference in the Blues

Is there a known reason for the difference of royal/navy blues between the Flag of Scotland and the Union Jack? Both articles advise the reader to 'take note' of the difference, but make no mention of the why. Nae'blis 17:02:20, 2005-08-30 (UTC)

[edit] Official color

[User:Mais oui!|Mais oui!]] keeps removing the following sentence:

"There is no official definition of the exact shade of blue which should be used as the field."

And stating that the Pantone 300 is official. Here is an excerpt about this matter from [3]:

18 February 2003  : The Education, Culture and Sport Committee considered a petition from Mr George Reid on the Saltire flag. The Committee agreed that the colour of the Saltire flag should be colour reference Pantone 300. The Committee noted that it was not endorsing any guidance by taking this decision and also noted that consideration of the Petition was now concluded.
25 March 2003  : The Public Petitions Committee considered a response from the Education, Culture and Sport Committee in relation to the issues raised. The Committee agreed to suggest that a voluntary code or guidance, recommending the use of Pantone 300 for the colour of the Saltire, should be agreed and published by the relevant societies with an interest in the matter. The Committee also agreed to take no further action on the petition.

It seems that a committee "suggesting" a "voluntary code or guidance" doesn't quite rise to the level of "official" (for example, if Parliament passed a law saying to use Pantone 300, then that would unquestionably be "official"). I think the deleted sentence is valid (it has been in the article for quite some time, and no one else seemed to disagree with it).--JW1805 15:02, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Does anybody know a colour match for the Saltire pre-United Kingdom. I'm not expecting anything exact or official but just something a bit more specific than sky blue. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.75.72 (talk) 22:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Royal Flag of Scotland

Shouldn't this page mention the royal flag of scotland? I see this flag almost as much as I see the Saltire. I will write something about this, and put it up. John

[edit] Oldest image

I will like to see the oldest image of Flag of Scotland.Håbet 22:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The same flags as Tenerife

Perphaps you already know, but Scotland and Tenerife (Canary Islands) have the same flag design. See Flag of Tenerife.

Do you see any difference? (Please, no flamewar intented). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.150.2.20 (talk) 11:09, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit Warring over date

Can you guys stop and discuss this please? --Bazzargh (talk) 18:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Bazzargh, perhaps we needed reminding. I've no problem with editors making contributions to articles on the basis of either referenced facts or achieving consensus. What I do object to are situations, this being a case in point, where a fundamental aspect to an article is repeatedly altered without any discussion or appropriate reference being provided by the editor in question; POV pushing comes to mind. When the editor concerned was invited to undertake to discuss or provide a reference, the invite was firstly ignored and then positively declined.
While there may not be an actual 1100 year old flag, or painting, or carving or other facsimile to prove beyond all reasonable doubt, there is no dispute out with this forum that, whether it be in "legend" or "fact", that the Saltire as a symbol associated with Scotland pre-dates the C16th. On this the article itself is also quite clear. My opinion is leave 'as is' and let the reader discover via the article itself the origins of the symbol and flag, even providing a link to an external reference by the date in the info box if others feel that would be appropriate. (FOTW perhaps?). Regards Rab-k (talk) 20:17, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I have added a reference tag to the 9th century date and bracketed it as (approx). That reference shows the first date of use to be well prior to the 16th century and probably closer to the 11th century, though without a confirmed reference it can only be approximated for the 9th, hence the bracketed wording. Perhaps this will suffice until a confirmed citation can be given? Richard Harvey (talk) 23:34, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Richard Harvey (talk), very much appreciated. Rab-k (talk) 23:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Flag of England says 16th century, because that was its first use on its own. The Cross of St. George had been used since at least the 12th along with others. A similar situation pertains to Scotland. At the very least, the two articles should apply the same criteria. TharkunColl (talk) 23:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

While I, in common with many other editors, do not consider it a requirement that articles on any given subject mirror each other in a mundane 'one-size-fits-all' approach, I look forward to seeing the date in the Flag of England info box change accordingly, should your desire for uniformity dictate such. Rab-k (talk) 09:36, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Furthermore, this article itself states that the first recorded use was 1385. The legend of the 9th century battle is just that, a legend. The article's infobox should at the very least not contradict what the article itself says. TharkunColl (talk) 12:48, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Let's not confuse legend with fact. Unless further evidence is forthcoming, the date in the info box should be later than the 9th century. Nesbit (talk) 17:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with TharkunColl, the date 1385 makes the most sense.ShieldDane (talk) 20:22, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Amazing; through due process of discussion, concensus and the provision of a reference(s), we arrive at 1385. Just shows what can be achieved. when done correctly. 1385/C14th good enough for me. Rab-k (talk) 21:23, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Which Athelstan?

Æthelstan of East Anglia got nowhere near Scotland, and spent most of his reign attempting to preserve his kingdom against Mercian annexation. To even suggest he could be the king involved in the legend is ridiculous POV, a transparent attempt to render the story remotely possible. The truth is obvious - this late medieval tale remembers the Athelstan of Brunanburh, who gave the rebellious Scots a good whipping, and simply got its dates wrong. TharkunColl (talk) 00:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The article on Óengus II seems to have a more accurate account of the legend:
Óengus's connection to the Saltire, set out at length by later chroniclers such as John of Fordun and Andrew of Wyntoun, comes from an earlier source, the older St Andrews foundation legend, which appears to date from the 12th century or before. The simplest version, stripped of the vivid, and probably misleading, detail added by later chroniclers, has "King Hungus" and his army win a victory aided by Saint Andrew, in gratitude for which the Picts agree to venerate the Saint.[6] The name of their enemy may, or may not, be Athelstan, but this is most unlikely to be either of the English kings, nor the Viking convert, who shared that name.
Nesbit (talk) 02:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] 1:2 unofficial standard ratio?

Ratios of Saltires that are actually manufactured in Scotland, which I have found: James Stevenson (Flags) Ltd, Glasgow, www.stevensonflags.com , "Scotland's leading flagmakers" "now the main truly independent and self-financed flagmakers in Scotland". 1:2 ratio, Sewn Woven Polyester, (Seven sizes), 18x36, 54x27, 72x36, 90x45, 108x54, 144x72 (inches). 1:2 ratio, Printed Woven Polyester, (Three sizes), 18x36, 54x27, 72x36. 1:2 ratio, Knitted Woven Polyester, (Three sizes), 18x36, 54x27, 72x36. 2:3 ratio, Sewn Woven Polyester, (One size), "6x4ft". 3:4 ratio, Sewn Woven Polyester, "Special Sizes" "Ceremonial" "Complete with fringe" (One size), "4x3ft". 3:5 ratio, Economy, (One size) "5x3ft". Flags of the World, Stranraer, www.flagsoftheworld.co.uk/products.php?cat=10&pg=2 , "Clients" "The Scottish Executive". 1:2 ratio, "Quality Sewn" "woven polyester" "2:1 ratio", (Seven sizes), 1 yd, 1.5 yd, 2 yd (£37.50), 2.5 yd, 3 yd, 4 yd, 5 yd. 3:5 ratio, "Economy Flags" "5ft x 3ft" "Polyester Display" (One size), (£5.95). 5:8 ratio, "8ft x 5ft" "Giant Polyester Display Flag" (One size) (£17.50). 2:3 ratio, "3ft x 2ft" "Polyester Display Flag" (One size) (£4.50). MAGELLAN FLAGS, East Linton, East Lothian, www.magellan-flags.com/magellan-item.php?code=506 , "quality flags" "member of the FLAG INSTITUTE" "MoD specification flags". 1:2 ratio, (Two sizes), "3ft x 1.5 ft" "6ft x 3ft". Hi-Fli Banners & Flags, Kirriemuir, www.footballbanners.co.uk/national.html and www.footballbanners.co.uk . Their flags are "custom made". Though their standard ratio is 1:2 and size "6'x3' ". 1:2 ratio, Quality in two grades "125gsm" (One size) "6'x3' " (£52.87) and "110gsm" (One size) "6'x3' ", 1:2 ratio, Economy (One size), "6'x3' " (£10). To sum up: Of the Scottish Flag manufacturers I can find; one Scottish manufacturer produces the Saltire as follows: 1:2 Sewn Woven Polyester in seven sizes, 1:2 Printed Woven Polyester in three sizes, 1:2 Knitted Woven Polyester in three sizes, 2:3 Sewn Woven Polyester in one size, 3:4 Sewn Woven Polyester in one size, 3:5 Economy in one size. Another Scottish manufacturer produces the Saltire as follows: 1:2 Sewn Woven Polyester in seven sizes, 3:5 Economy in one size, 5:8 Economy in one size, 2:3 Economy in one size. Another Scottish manufacturer produces the Saltire as follows: 1:2 "quality" in two sizes. Another Scottish manufacturer produces the Saltire as follows: 1:2 as the standard ratio. 1:2 Quality in two grades in one size, 1:2 Economy in one size. The vast majority of quality (non-economy/supporters) Saltires made in Scotland and the rest of the UK, are produced in 1:2. Therefore it seems to me, that 1:2 is the unofficial standard ratio. An e-mail sent to me from the Scottish Parliament, dated 17 January 2007. States that the Saltires used for external use; have a "height to length ratio of 1:2" and are "2 yard" "91cm x 183cm". If you study the photo in the article, of the Saltire outside the Scottish Parliament. You will see that it is 1:2. Compare it with the five graphic depictions in the article, which are 3:5. For comparision, the Union Flag of 1801 in the article is 1:2. In Edinburgh, Dundee, Fife, Angus and Perthshire. All the Saltires on buildings or on the ground flying from flagpoles, I have seen. Were probably 1:2. In Perth there are Saltires on at least seven different buildings. Two hotels and a council lawn; each have a Saltire, flying from a flagpole on the ground. A car dealer has four Saltires flying in a similar manner. Perth Library has two Saltires flying from flagpoles, next to it on a lawn. As I have already stated, all were probably 1:2. On at least three occasions, at international football matches held in Perth. The Saltire officially representing Scotland, flying from a flagpole. Was probably 1:2. Michael Faul, Editor of Flagmaster, The Flag Institute; sent me this in a e-mail: "It does appear that you have come up against what we, in the flag world refer to as "the tyranny of inertia". In other words, things have always been done that way, so they shall continue in the same way." "It is only since about the mid-19th century that flags have been used ashore in Britain to any extent." "In the 17th century, Samuel Pepys decreed in a memorandum that naval flags should have one yard of length for every breadth of material. At the time, a "breadth", the width in which the flag material was supplied, was 11 inches. This gave a ratio of 11:18" (1:1.63636) (very slightly shorter than 3:5/1:1.66666). "Over the next 150 years, the size of a "breadth" shrank to 9 inches, but the decree was never changed so the flags came, by default, to be made in the ratio of 9:18, or 1:2. When flags came ashore, makers continued this ratio." "Since World War II, it has been the practice for flags flown over Army installations to have the 3:5 ratio. I stress the word practice. It is still frequent to see 1:2 ratio flags over barracks. Because, other than Pepys' memorandum, there has never been an official specification. The practice has become "set in stone". Hence the tyranny of inertia." "Flags made in other countries (notably China), the "economy" flags, are effectively all made 3:5." Rob Raeside, Director of Flags of the World; sent me this in a e-mail: "As you note, the weight of practice is driving the manufacturers and commonly accepted dimensions." In the article I have added 1:2, to the Proportion next to the graphic "Flag of Scotland" and to "Colour and Dimensions". If anyone still questions my credibility; I suggest they study my contributions about the Saltire (Scotland), on the Flags of the World website, by Thomas Murray. Hopefully, someone will use some of this information and add it to the article. Sulasgeir (talk) 14:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)