Talk:Flag of Poland/Archive 1

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I expanded the article a tad, I hope the historical section is clear now. I also corrected the civil and state ensign thingy, as the flag with coat of arms is something quite different. Sure, it is used for merchant marine, but also has other uses. Halibutt 12:28, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 Grey? 2 Colors 3 Flag with CoA 4 Flag of Poland is white and red, not grey and red 5 Wow -- please provide a link to source stating that Poland's national colors are grey and red 6 We have a problem

[edit] Grey?

Who has decided that the Polish flag is some kind of grey colour? I've never seen this before, and it surely cannot be genuine. It looks like the effects of a flag which has been left out to hang for years with the weather wearing it out. It looks ugly and out of place, I hope people see the light and change it back. JohnJohnJohnJohntt 14:27, 01 December 2006

I'm afraid to confess that the answer to your question is: the bloody Polish government did, passing the relevant law in 1980, last updated in 2005 (see Reference 2. in the text of Flag of Poland).

Oh, the color is called white all right; it's just that the enclosed quantitative specification tones down the brightness in CIELab color space to Y=82 (perfect white ("safe") would be 100). See for yourself -- Reference 2. in text, then scroll down to the bottom of the legislation. You will see there 4 links each marked wzór ("example") -- these are the addenda (załącznik means addendum) to the textual part of the legislation. The first depicts addendum no. 1: the Coat of Arms, the second wzór link depicts addendum no. 2: the National Colors (that's the one you want: [1]); the remaining two wzór links comprise addendum no. 3, with the the third wzór link - the state flag of the Polish Republic (i.e., the red/white without the Coat of Arms in the middle of the white stripe), and the fourth wzór link - the state flag with the Coat of Arms. I will also translate for you one telling sentence of the law:

• "Article 6. Section 1. "The state flag of the Polish Republic is a cloth rectangle in the colors of the Republic of Poland, hoisted on a mast."
• (in Polish: Art 6. 1. Flagą państwową Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej jest prostokątny płat tkaniny o barwach Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej, umieszczony na maszcie.).

So, what you're seeing on your screen in Flag of Poland is not the flag of Poland, but only it's faithful depiction. For the real thing, wave something appropriate hoisted on a stick.

The national colors are mercifully described in a table with numbers, so they are intelligible as presented to anglophones (with the hand-holding clarification that "biała" means (feminine) "white" and "czerwona" means (feminine) "red", as "barwa" is a feminine-gendered word for hue/color). Regards, --Mareklug ^talk 18:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Colors

Are you absolutely sure it's the right colour? It seems different from what is actually used on flags... //Halibutt 19:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I took the official coordinates in the CIE 1976 color space from the statute and rendered them into RGB using this online color calculator. The colors I used for the illustrations are what I got. Perhaps I should try other calculators to be sure. Anyway, as I wrote in the article (based on a NIK report), the legal specifications are rarely followed in practice. And downloading images from government websites doesn't guarantee to get the correct shades at all. The President's and the Prime Minister's websites, for instance, show national colors as red #FF0000 and white #FFFFFF since this was the easiest way for the webmasters. And just for laughs, see this! Kpalion 19:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I inserted two images of the Polish flag in PNG format, with the colors described above. These are:

Image:Flaga Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej.PNG

Image:Flaga z godlem Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej.PNG

Every now and then these are changed back to the SVG files that were here before, with wrong shades of red and white. These are:

Image:Flag of Poland.svg

Image:Flag of Poland (state).svg

(Note: Since the above 4 images were included here, the last 3 have been updated on Wikimedia Commons to the corrected, official colors, without a rosy tinge to the white. The red is also more accurate now, then it was in the originals. --Mareklug ^talk 18:57, 6 December 2006 (UTC))

I will keep reversing such edits unless someone proves me wrong. If it's only a question of file format, then please someone convert the PNG files I uploaded to SVG as I am unable to do that. Kpalion 20:35, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

AFAIK, the SVG files are correct. If you believe they are wrong, take it up with commons:Commons:WikiProject Flags, but don't revert to the PNG files; SVG is superior and should be used. Please discuss at the Commons, okay? —Nightstallion (?) 12:38, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I put a request on the commons to convert those images to SVG (I don't have the right software to do it myself). Hopefully, someone will do this soon. I still doubt if we should sacrifice correct information for file format, but I agree to wait a little until correct SVG images of Polish national symbols are available. Kpalion 15:06, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there no common sense left in Wikipedia?! The color of the upper part of the Polish flag in most certainly not the pink used here. Check these google results and it's very doubtfull that you'll find this color anywere. It's not only websites, but it's not on any photographs either. I don't really understand much about image formating, so I would ask someone who does to correct this mistake. The lower color is wrong as well. Kostja 12:14, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

The issue of colors is currently under discussion in pl:Dyskusja:Flaga Polski. The bottom half is surely as close as we can get to correct colors. Most images on the web that use #FF0000, are in fact incorrect. The main issue is the top part, with obvious concerns that it should be white, not slightly gray, however there is no definite result of the discussion yet. --Wanted 02:17, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

No one in Poland use pink-red or grey-red flag. All officials use clearly white-red flag. Please don't make controversy and hasty decissions. --KridPL 11:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with KridPL. And any agreement reached on pl.wikipedia is not authoritative here.--RedMC 12:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

But at least on pl.wikipedia, people are trying to reason this issue out and arrive at a consensus based on reason, not force the issue dogmatically, as you are doing. And, you are in danger of breaking the WP:3RR with your reverts on Poland and elsewhere. --Mareklug ^talk 13:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I would really like to be allowed to reason, but you are telling me that I should instead wait for what someone else, somewhere else, in another language is discussing, aren't you?--RedMC 13:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

No. Please see my reply on your talk page. In short, discuss and participate! --Mareklug ^talk 18:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I feel that the use of the gray flag is just wrong. The official website for Poland clearly shows a red and WHITE flag [2]. Also, look at any picture of a polish flag! [3] <-this one, for instance, showing several flags around a statue in Poland! In fact, I challenge anyone to find a picture of an actual 'gray and white' polish flag flying anywhere. This is clearly the wrong color, and it should be changed immediately. Aufs klo 20:49, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag with CoA

Flag of Poland consists of only two bands of colour, white over red (or more accurately, crimson). The Coat of arms of Poland is not a part of the Flag of Poland. It does appear however on polish marine banners.

Consequently, the image posted (at the time of this entry) as "Flag of Poland", is not it!

Because of the specific purpose of the marine banner, its use for other purposes was prohibited.

Observation: Polish emigrants and esp. their offspring born abroad often use the Polish marine banner in error as the Flag of Poland. One possible reason for this might have been their misunderstanding of the prohibition of the use of the marine banner for other displays. They thought that it was frivolously imposed by the communist regime, hence should be opposed.

MC

MC, please read what the Polish law (Ustawa o godle, barwach i hymnie Rzeczypospolitej Polskiej oraz o pieczęciach państwowych) says about the flag with coat of arms. It is used as a merchant ensign (bandera handlowa), but it also has other, restricted uses. Kpalion 19:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag of Poland is white and red, not grey and red

From Portal talk:Poland/Poland-related Wikipedia notice board, regarding why grey-white version of the flag is wrong, (with small modifications RedMC 14:29, 6 December 2006 (UTC))

-From a colorimetric point of view: What people is doing at pl.wiki is a calculation for the white of the flag, which, on a bright, luminescent computer screen (which after all, is a source of light, and not a reflecting surface like an actual flag in real life) looks like a grey. This means that people translated from a light-absorbing surface colorplane to a light-emitting one: their translation is therefore wrong, as the specification if for a medium (the flag material) different from a monitor.

-From a perception point of view: Some users claim that "if you viewed the [image] on a black/dark background, you would not have the sensation of seeing gray. It would look white." This is wrong, you can have a look yourself:

-From a common sense point of view: If the flag is expected to be white, while it appears grey (and even on a black background it would never be white), then somebody, even in good faith, made a mistake, and should admit it, instead of keeping on supporting a blatantly wrong version.

-Furthermore, keeping the discussion on pl:Flaga Polski will cut out everybody who does not know Polish. As the result of the discussion will affect a lot of pages all around Wikipedia, an international talkpage should be chosen to settle this matter.

--RedMC 11:08, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

To answer some of your points:

1. Polish law is very specific about what constitutes a national flag. In particular, it defines the state flag of the Republic of Poland as a cloth rectangle hoisted on a mast, in National Colors (See above, for exact quote and translation of the relevant article: #Grey?). It then proceeds to define what these National Colors are, using a quantitative description that tones down the white (Y=82, where 100 would be ideal white equivalent to the whitest possible), and the red, a deep shade of crimson -- see the specification here: [4]. It also goes on to define the national Coat of Arms, in exactly the same colors (modulo golden crown and claws). So, at the very least, the Flag of Poland and the Coat of Arms of Poland must be the same red and white. Furthermore, the Coat of Arms is a specific drawing, on a shield of specific shape. [5].
2. Anticipating this controversy, the Flag image in widest use across Wikimedia Commons projects, commons:Image:Flag of Poland.svg, has been extensively annotated and hyperlinked to wikipedia articles defining the terms needed to explain this transformation, in both English and Polish. Anyone puzzled by the appearance of the flag, by klicking on the flag image, which nearly always is a link, will be shown this Wikimedia Commons description, right under the exploded flag image. Other flags on Commons have also been described, albeit to a lesser extent. The description explains why the white appears grayish. So do the articles about the flag on the English and Polish Wikipedias.
3. Letters have been written, both officially to the government, and to the webmaster of the website of the President of the Republic of Poland, asking for clarification of what to display as flag rendition on computer monitors, and why there are discrepancies on the President's own website (the flags are not in official colors, and the state flag with the Coat of Arms uses the wrong, communist-era rendition except with a crown added, while another section of the website displays the correct Coat of Arms, in official colors. So, you see, the consistency of the webmastering, if only that, leaves a lot to be desired, if not the legal situation itself.
4. Wikipedia describes facts, not invents them. The legal situations of the Polish flag is known to be problematic (for example, the Highest Chamber of Control, a governmental oversight body, has criticized the inconsistencies in available official flags and depictions, and the Polish legislators are on record acknowledging errors in vexillology and heraldry in the Polish flag law/law governing national symbols and colors that is presently in force. Wikipedia, as an encyklopedia, owes its readers describing the Polish flag and the Polish Coat of Arms -- and the Polish National Colors -- as they have been officially defined by Poland, not as people might like them to be or are used to seeing.

Hope this explanation helps a little bit. Meanwhile, we are busy building consensus -- both on the Polish Wikipedia and here, not to omit Wikimedia Commons, whose administrators for now have protected the Polish flags to avoid confusion that comes from a revert war and allow consensus to develop. --Mareklug ^talk 21:13, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I numbered your points, so it is easier for me to answer you. I hope you won't mind.

Answer to point (1). I have no problem with Polish specifications, and I agree with having the same shade for both flags.

Answer to point (2). I agree the modification has been described on Commons.

Answer to point (3). I am happy with the letters sent to officials to understand better the situation

Answer to point (4). I partially agree with this point. There is indeed a problem with the specification, but you support a flag which is grey (in any way you see it, it is grey, not white), claiming it is white.

Answer to point...? I do not see any point answering my issues. I claimed that the conversion was wrong, because it was technically wrong, because it was perceptively wrong, and because it was against common sense; also, I contested the fact we, on en.wiki, should be bound to a decision made by someone else, somewhere else. Is there a chance for these issues to be addressed?--RedMC 19:24, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Your claim that the color conversion is technically wrong is unsuported by technical arguments that this indeed is so. The Polish specification does not specify a medium, only parameters of white and red expressed in CIELab values and a CIELUV parameter of allowed divergence from those values. Furthermore, the law defines the flag as a rectangle of cloth, and it does not provide a separate specification for displaying this flag on a monitor. You say that you have "no problem with Polish specifications" in answer to my point (1), yet you contradict yourself later on in your answer to my point (4): "There is indeed a problem with the specification". If you think the conversion already performed and documented in Flag of Poland of the Polish CIELab specification is inaccurate, please provide your own conversion from these values, and justify your calculations. Your claim that the conversion is perceptively wrong is also unsuported. There are different shades of white, and it just so happens that the Polish specification specifies a darker shade of white then you culturally are prepared to accept. You choose to call it gray, but that is subjective. I might like to call it silver-white, and think that the Polish law meant to reference the heraldic designation of silver (for which white stands). Whatever. The Polish specification sets the brightness parameter for white (Y) at 82, considerably less than the value of absolutely bright. Whether you have no problem with the Polish specification, or you think there is a problem (decide which), the specification darkens the official white of the flag from absolutely the whitest possible on a computer screen. Your claim that the conversion is against common sense is certainly understandable, but what exactly do you propose to do about it, given that the Polish law a) defines the flag as a rectangle of cloth in national colors, and b) defines the national colors as a darker shade of white than you like, and a darker shade of red then you pasted in your image Image:Correct Flag of Poland.svg, which therefore, is anything but correct. I remind you that you agreed that the Polish coat of arms and the Polish flag are to be displayed in the same national colors. The coat of arms uses a red in the shade of crimson, not #FF0000. What exactly do you propose be done about it -- colorize the coat of arms to #FF0000 for English wiki display? Finally, you say that we on en wiki are not bound by what others decide. But what does that mean in practice? Is it an invitation to engage in original research on English wikipedia? I hope not, because that is against wikipedia's guidelines. English wiki is obligated to describe what is werifiably true, and for now, the verified depiction of the Polish flag resides in the article Flag of Poland, with references given to the Polish law that specifies the Polish national colors, using graphics from Wikimedia Commons that depict these colors. Yet, the situation is not settled, pending outcome of letters to officials asking for guidance on depicting the Polish flag on the screen, and ongoing debate how to go about it, both here and on the Polish wikipedia. One thing is relatively clear: the crimson red of the flag/coat of arms is not the convenient html red of #FF0000 that you have been conditioned to see on countless websites. --Mareklug ^talk 16:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

(May I ask you to break your contributions into paragraphs? It is easier to read and answer them)

The discussion about that flag is made on another place, in a language unknown to most of the editors of en.wiki. Asking to wait for people at pl.wiki to decide for us is not acceptable. They are making choices, otherwise you would not speak of ongoing debate, and I feel we should not be compelled to accept them, neither here, nor at Commons.

As regards the state emblem/shade of red matter, if you think my version is not acceptable because it has a wrong shade of red, why are you accepting a flag with a wrong shade of white?

As regards perception, teh fact that people come here to ask what happened to the "white" stripe is a clear point in favour of my reasoning. If you take photographs of Polish flag, such as Image:Sejm.jpg and Image:Benedykt 0041.jpg, you will see that, in "official" flags, the white stripe is, well..., white: compare it, in Image:Benedykt 0041.jpg, to the white stripe of the Vatican flag.

I hope you will address my concerns.--RedMC 00:39, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope you realize on reflection, that pointing at a reproduction of a color photograph and calling that a color reference is laughable. For starters, the same shade of white will look whiter or darker depending on the intensity of light illuminating it, the color temperature of the light source, and untold number of variables that are not controlled on the way from the sunshine striking the surface of a real flag, to a camera registering it as an image on film (or charged coupled device), to the image being processed for initial printing, to the print image being scanned or otherwise processed for digital medium, to the digital medium being viewed on a physical device of dubious or nonexistent callibration.

Meanwhile, the only hard numbers/guidance we have for generating a shade of white of the Polish flag is the CieLab 1976 set of parameters x, y, Y given by the Polish law. And the expected common sense belief, that the white be white (and the red be red).

Now, step back, and consider the recently color-updated, still incorrect drawing of the Polish Coat of Arms on the commons:Image:Herb of Poland.svg. Blow it up on your screen, and if your browser allows it, examine the xml code of the vector graphic: the red is #d4213d and the white is #e9e8e7. there is also gold/yellow of the crown/claws and gray of the tracing on the eagle. I ask you: Does this eagle look white to you or gray? It sure looks white to me.

The issue what to do on a monitor screen is unobvious. For now, I prefer to think that the status quo is not so bad: The official colors are used to encode the official symbols (the flag and the Coat of Arms, including the wrong drawing of the coat of arms referenced above). Whatever the perceptual subjective experience of contemplating this "dingy" (if you like) red-white flag, it contains -- as do the Coat of Arms images available on Commons -- the correct quantitative information. I.e., if you wanted to know what the official flag is like, the quantitative information presented damn tells you. Now, you can go and sew yourself the genuine article, based on the Wikipedia articles/Wikimedia Commons images -- which function as a specification, and let's hope, that when you wave it, it will be plenty white to look at...

Nobody has yet authoritatively said that the official colors as depicted on the luminescent screen are the flag. The Polish law specifically makes the claim that it is not. The law says that the flag is a rectangle of cloth. This flag, you know, the thing in the photographs you are referring to of which whiteness you want me to verify -- this flag yet waves, not flickers in an interlaced/noninterlaced digital reality.

I think you have to adjust your reality to the reality of the flag. Cordially, --Mareklug ^talk 23:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wow -- please provide a link to source stating that Poland's national colors are grey and red

I saw this on the geographical request for comments. I'm just not following the basic argument here. Someone is arguing that the Polish flag is grey and red, not white and red? This is very confusing. Exactly what source is it, and please link directly to the source, that says that Poland's national colors are grey and red? English or Polish. KP Botany 17:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

It's been in the text of the article all along, as Reference 2. It's the text of the relevant national law, in Polish. Within this web copy, there are 4 links close to the bottom of the page in the center, each marked wzór. You want the 2nd one. Here it is for your convenience: [6]. See also my more exhaustive/exhausting reply, above, in the section #Grey? --Mareklug ^talk 18:43, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll look it over. KP Botany 18:45, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid it's just people being unreasonable. Polish Constitution, the fundamental source of national law, states that the Polish national colours are white and red. Don't worry, it's not as complicated as some people make it seem :) -- Bmucha

The constitution doesn't state which shade of white to use, and the piece of legislation the constitution refers to for the details specifies the shade as exactly the one that was calculated (although it does specify it for a cloth flag, and makes no mention of displaying on luminescent screens, etc, etc, etc). Please don't convey inaccurate information. --130.214.17.20 19:34, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Just as I said, people being unreasonable, is all. Chill! -- Bmucha

The problem seems to be that although the flag is certainly white and red, the flags shown appear to be grey and red, with the grey being called white. My guess is it's to show the flag against the white background of wikipedia. If that's the case I'd rather the pictures were of a lighter shade.--Wizardman 04:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not the case. What we're trying to do here is to present, as accurately as possible, the colors of the Polish flag as specified in Polish legislation. Conversion of the legal specifications to RGB, which is necessary for web display, may not be perfect, but it is very close. The color white on the flag is of a darker shade than the white background of Wikipedia which is why it appears to be grey. But the main purpose of any illustrations in Wikipedia is not to look nice, but to give as accurate information as possible. Kpalion 19:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

So if I take a real Polish flag and hold it up to something that is white, it will appear grey? If not, the image is inaccurate and should be changed to white, which it currently is not, no matter what the conversions you do say. --Ibagli (Talk) 22:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you go ahead and actually try doing that? You may have problems finding a Polish flag that is made according to statutory specifications (the Supreme Chamber of Control reported in 2005 that none of the nine flags they bought had the right colors), but even if you take one that is not exactly legally correct and hold it up to a computer screen showing the color white (#FFFFFF), I bet you will find the upper stripe of the flag darker than the screen. If not, then please let us know of the outcome of this experiment. Kpalion 21:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] We have a problem

The problem is Poland doesn't have NATIONAL symbols, colors or flag- only STATE (in Polish państwowe, not narodowe). Kowalmistrz 19:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Could you please precise why this is a problem? And what you think is the difference between national and state symbols? — Kpalion^(talk) 21:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Kowalmistrz answered (in Polish) on my talk page that the difference between national and state symbols is "fundamental" without any further explanation. — Kpalion^(talk) 12:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)