Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland

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This is a controversial topic that may be under dispute. Please read this page and discuss substantial changes here before making them. Make sure to supply full citations when adding information and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information.

Could somebody explain the significance and history of the "Traditional" flag at the bottom? Thanks! VivaEmilyDavies 23:37, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The traditional flag at the bottom of the page (yellow with a red cross, charged with the red hand) is the provincial flag of Ulster. This is not a legal flag per se, and originated from the banner of arms of the historic province of Ulster - This design is believed to have been derived from the arms of the de Burgos; historic Earls of Ulster.

It is used occassionally by the nationalists, but they usually only display it along with the 3 other provincial flags of Ireland. It is almost always overshadowed by the usage of the Irish Tricolour.

Perhaps the most common usage is by several of the sporting teams that play as a unified island; an example of this flag can be see at [[1]]. It should be noted that the Irish Rugby Football Union choose to use the flag of St. Patrick rather than the flag of the 4 provinces.

I'll clean up the article when I get the time. Hope that helps you out.

JimJim 7th January

Contents 1 New flag for Northern Ireland 2 Surely, Most Commonly Known as the "Ulster Flag"? 3 Revert War 4 New Changes 5 Displaying the flag 6 A better flag icon for Northern Ireland? (from village pump) 7 'Northern Ireland' is better known as Ulster. 8 many foreigners associate [this flag] with Northern Ireland? 9 "Unofficial" 10 Moved comments from the top 11 Northern Ireland Flags Issue 12 Open and closed hand 13 Only one council? 14 Auto Peer Review 15 Merge Northern Ireland flags issue into Flag of Northern Ireland 16 To Resemble the St George's Cross 17 POV tag 18 Edit warring 19 Other Flags Listed 20 "banned tricolour" 21 Irish tricolour 22 Recent Changes 23 Displaying Flags section 24 Merger proposal 25 Ulster Banner straw poll 26 Irish Tricolour 27 Another pro-Republican edit protected by Wikipedia 28 Fair Warning 29 Compromise 30 OR removed 31 Proposal to Change this articles title to Former Flag of Northern Ireland 32 Protected again

[edit] New flag for Northern Ireland

Is someone seriously considering the design of a new nonpartisan flag for NI, like they did in South Africa after apartheid? Ricardo monteiro 14:52, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

The Alliance party have be pushing for a new flag for quite a while - "Alliance proposes that new symbols be devised to give expression to Northern Ireland as a region, including a new flag. Greater use should also be made of the European Flag." - http://www.allianceparty.org/showbrief.asp?id=3 - Their proposals include a flag based on the geometrics of the Giant's Causeway.

JimJim

[edit] Surely, Most Commonly Known as the "Ulster Flag"?

Hello, I've came across this page and tried to make some edits as 217.137.160.10 but was reverted by "Lapsed Pacifist" who says NPOV.

Surely, the Northern Ireland Flag is most well known as the "Ulster Flag". CAIN flags I have very rarely heard it referred to as anything else. Perhaps sometimes as the "Red Hand Flag of Ulster" or "Red Hand of Ulster Flag", as in the original verison of the article. This article does not reflect this.

I also find the "According to the UN" bit as completely unnecessary (as JimJim has also mentioned in the edit summaries). It seems like a subtle attempt by an Irish nationalist to imply "The UN says the Union Flag is official, but it's not really".

Jonto 15:18, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

In regards "Ulster Flag" this should be acceptable to integrate as long as their is a provable case that it is more common usage, although it may only be a trivial comment.

Regarding the "According to the UN", yes it is rather anomalous and the responsibility is on someone to prove that this is indeed the case - it is quite a particular and abstract claim. One might have taught that Northern Ireland does not have a flag at all, as the United Kingdom does and it is part thereof, and that would be simply the end of it. Djegan 15:46, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, well this is sort of hard to prove from the internet (and probably trivial like you say), but I did some searches on Google Images to see what I got:

Search for "northern ireland flag" (in quotes) -> 43 red and white flag results

Search for "ulster flag" -> 25 NI red and white results, 11 red and yellow 9-county results (2 from wikipedia). Search for "red hand flag" -> 5 red and white results.

So, to conclude should probably leave the main title as is "Flag of Northern Ireland" as this is the region for which it intends to symbolise, but should also say that "Ulster flag" is a very common name. Jonto 16:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Because a lot of people happen to call the Red Hand Flag the "Northern Ireland Flag", doesn't mean it is correct. The majority of people call the British Flag the "Union Jack" quite incorrectly. (Although that's a deeper vexillogical argument). In essence, people tend to call the flag what they want relative to their own bias and ignorance. Going with the CAIN Flag website linked above, I've edited the page to the "Government of Northern Ireland Flag", but would be happy to hear objections.

JimJim 14th July

Hey, JimJim. Looks like we were editing at the same time there! I was making it look the same as the CAIN site too, then wondered why some of my changes were there, but not others! Jonto 19:41, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the name of "Flag of the Government of Northern Ireland" is correct but it seems OK to me as a title for now, as noone seems to know the official name. Someone on the Northern Ireland page (which by the way needs updated, and drastically edited on many other points IMHO) is now calling it the "Royal Ulster Flag". I'm not sure - I haven't heard of this terminology - anyone else know?

Jonto 20:46, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Generally considered authoritive [2]. Djegan 20:56, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Revert War

Reasons for these [3] edits (being reverted by User:Lapsed Pacifist:

• It's just silly to start off the article with "according to the UN". Has the UN ever said anything one way or the other about the flag of NI? NI is part of the UK, and its flag is the Union Jack. It's a fact, deal with it.
• Second sentence is just grammar and clarity.
• It's more logical to put the info on the history of the "red hand" in the original Ulster flag section, instead of having duplicate information.
• Why is the legend of the red hand being removed? Is there some controversy about this? (I honestly don't know)
• Ulster formed (past tense) one the historic provences of Ireland. Three of them are (present tense) part of the Republic. Six of them (present tense) are NI. It's a fact, deal with it.

--JW1805 04:32, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Ulster is a province of Ireland (present tense). The red hand was in the Northern Ireland flag because it was in the Ulster flag. It was in the Ulster flag because it was the emblem of the O'Neills. If you want to add legends, start on the Uí Néill article. If you wanted to be "logical" the legend would'nt appear where you reverted it. Yes, the UN's stance is that the Union Flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland. There appears to be a dispute about Northern Ireland's position in the United Kingdom.

Lapsed Pacifist 04:46, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't dispute your first 3 sentences. But, I just think it is logical to have the origin of the red hand in the "Flag of Ulster" section, which describes the original flag. There is a "(see below)" in the first section. It's redundant to then mention that the red hand is from the O'Neils and then later on to say the exact same thing. Also, I think it is completely appropriate to have legends on the origin of the symbolism used in the flag on this page. And finally, you may not recognize that NI is part of the UK, but the fact is that the entity known as "Northern Ireland" uses the Union Jack as its flag. There is no dispute about this, right?--JW1805 05:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

There is no dispute that the Union Flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland. This is the stance of the United Nations and by blanking their stance on the issue, you are ignoring the fact that controversy surrounds its continued use, and implying that this does not matter. My objection to the placing of the legend was that it was the only info on the origin of the red hand emblem in that section, and a different explanation was given in the Ulster Flag section.

Lapsed Pacifist 05:39, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I honestly fail to see your point. The very next sentence is: "However, due to the division of the population along religious and political lines, a wide variety of flags can also be seen flying from lamposts and private houses across Northern Ireland." This clearly indicates that it is controversial among some members of the population. And there is the "A New Flag?" section as well.--JW1805 17:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

"This is the stance of the United Nations and by blanking their stance on the issue, you are ignoring the fact that controversy surrounds its continued use, and implying that this does not matter"

Can you please:

1. Provide evidence the United Nations has ever issued any form of statement on the flag of Northern Ireland

2. Provide evidence that contradicts what the FOTW.net page on Northern Ireland says, ie. "The Union Jack is the only official flag of Northern Ireland. The well known red hand flag has not been used officially since 1973. Dean McGee, 27 January 2002"

Unless you can do one or both of these, shouldn't the article begin along the same lines as it does presently, in line with the most respected source of information on flags availiable on the internet? Reverting without providing evidence is utterly pointless.

JimJim

Do you think the UN's position is different from that of FOTW?

Lapsed Pacifist 11:18, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

With your edit, the article states that the Union Flag is the official flag and does not give a source.

Lapsed Pacifist 17:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Is there a source on Flag of France, Flag of Indonesia, Flag of Bolivia, or any other Wikipedia article about the flag of any other country? None of them say "according to the UN..." Northern Ireland is part of the UK, a fact which is not in dispute. The flag of the UK is the Union Jack, a fact which is not in dispute. In fact, now that I think about it the first sentence of this article should read something like: "Since it is constituent part of the United Kingdom, the official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag." That would clarify matters a bit, I think. --JW1805 18:21, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I recall quite a long dispute about Northern Ireland's place in the United Kingdom. Quite noisy at times, too. You ought to check it out.

Lapsed Pacifist 19:05, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, of course there are disputes on whether NI "should" be in the UK. But, as it currently stands, NI is one of the constituent parts of the UK, and that's just the way it is (as far as I know, this is recognized by all other countries, including the Republic of Ireland). Disagreements on what sector of the NI population wants to stay in the UK or join the ROI are best put in the Northern Ireland page, and there seems to be plenty of that already there. In addition, this page ([[Flag of Northern Ireland) does mention the fact that various symbols are not supported by various sectors of the population. --JW1805 19:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. The Union Flag remains the "official" flag of Northern Ireland through default, as no permanent political arrangement for the region has been agreed on. The article should reflect this.

Lapsed Pacifist 20:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the permanent political arrangement for the region.
Djegan 20:23, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

That's what they said about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Back then, the official flag of Western Ireland, Eastern Ireland, Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland was the Union Flag.

Lapsed Pacifist 20:56, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

That would be more appropriately "western Ireland, eastern Ireland, southern Ireland and northern Ireland" - dont try to confuse what is been discussed here by the false use of capitalisation. In strict English language "Northern Ireland" is not the same as "northern Ireland" - you tried that one previously and it is very transparent. Djegan 21:08, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Lapsed Pacifist - you are obviously a zealous Irish Republican. This is an encyclopaedia, not a place for Sinn Fein to publish its propaganda. I have spent some time looking through your past edit history (Special:Contributions/Lapsed_Pacifist), and can say that most edits fall very short of encyclopaedic standards, in many cases making subtle edits (and I hate to admit, quite clever in their subtleness)to twist the nature of the truth. There have been many compaints on your talk page. Please return to writing the your biographies of IRA volunteers. (Apologies to everyone else for reducing the debate to a personal level, but I think something needed to be said) Jonto 21:13, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Jonto, I have just checked the edit history you have mentioned and am deeply saddened by Lapsed Pacifist's contributions on the whole. I believe the constant "NPOV" ammendments are just part of his attempt to subtly alter articles in line with his own viewpoint, rather than in line with facts. A case in point would be the change from "by the vicious brutality of Crown forces,but the Wexford rebels were guilty of massacring loyalist civilians at Scullabogue and Wexford bridge." to "characterised by the usual vicious brutality of Crown forces, but the Wexford rebels brought shame on their movement, by killing many loyalist civilians at Scullabogue and Wexford bridge"

Quite aside from this - there should be no need for clarification of Northern Ireland's position as a constituent part of Britain - This is an article on the flags used there, not on the geo-political and geo-ethnic debate on the province. (And if you construe "The Province" to have any form of political bias you are sadly mistaken). I'm not going to change the opening statement - But I'm going to hope we can achieve consensus that the article should simply open "The only official flag of Northern Ireland" or perhaps "The official flag of Northern Ireland" - since it is an undisputable legal fact. The arguments as to the legality of the government et al are wholly irrelevant. Why is there need for such a statement?

JimJim

I don't agree. As the status of the region in question is disputed, there should be a clarification.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Lapsed Pacifist - there seems little point in reasoning with you - this is already covered in the second sentence, and really as JimJim has said is nothing to do with this article.

Hi JimJim, Am in complete agreement with you there. I'm sort of new to editing here, but have started to look around wikipedia as a whole and am quite disappointed about the standard of many articles on the site in relation to Ireland / Northern Ireland / Ulster etc. Perhaps Wikipedia is just not good when any political issues become involved - this is very saddening as you say, because anything that is written here gets spread around the internet as if it is fact. I think someone needs to comb through all edits made by this user very carefully (and others) and spot many of the very clever subtleties and tactics that are often employed.

As to the "province" issue, I agree with you too. That's why I wanted to describe the 9 county flag as "The Irish Provincial Flag of Ulster" as the 9 Ulster counties are an Irish province with historical significance. Northern Ireland is also a British province, but this usage seems to have been dismissed on other pages as being "unionist" political bias, despite being factual. I also think the common usage of "Ulster" in the context of Northern Ireland is also disregarded in many cases and seems to be deemed as "offensive". There are ambiguous statements on this page which are not clear as to the flag in question (6 county or 9 county). I tried to add text to clarify which one, but this also seems to get removed by Lapsed Pacifist. Jonto 22:43, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

No, it's not covered in the second line. The first line, as it stands, is akin to saying "the official flag of X (disputed region) is the flag of Y (state in control of the region)." As it is, it's POV.

Lapsed Pacifist 22:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

This is not "POV". Please read what Djegan has said. Irish republicans may not like it but that is the way it is.

ARK 2004 survey. Only 22% of people in the survey of Northern Ireland agree with your opinion, and Northern Ireland is democratically within the UK.

Irrespective, this is not the place for this debate.Jonto 23:20, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm familiar with the survey, but I don't see it's relevance. I'm not arguing about what jurisdiction the six counties come under, (or whether or not that came about democratically), I'm contending the region is disputed and that the article should reflect that more fully than it does at present. This is exactly the place for that debate.

Lapsed Pacifist 23:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Changes

I made many new changes to this page, including adding a Union Flag; removing paragraph about the difference between Ulster and NI (which doesn't have anything to do with flags); and some others. I welcome comments. Let the revert war begin! --JW1805 02:11, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Displaying the flag

I brought over some material that was in Flag of Ireland. Should this be kept in this article or not? Or maybe just put a link to it in the other article? --JW1805 21:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A better flag icon for Northern Ireland? (from village pump)

(Moved from Village pump (proposals) and archived here Hiding talk 20:25, 30 August 2005 (UTC))

We currently use , an icon based on the 1924 - 1972 Flag of the Government of Northern Ireland. This has not had any official status since 1972, tends to be associated with only one community and is very similar to , the one for England.

I've had a go at putting together some alternatives - this one is influenced by the flax plant logo of the Northern Ireland Assembly and this one based on the flag of the province of Ulster. Many of the uses on Wikipedia are football related and this one Image:IFA tiny.png might be good for those because it's based a celtic cross and similar to the logo of the Irish Football Association that controls soccer in Northern Ireland. Another possibility would be to use an icon from one of the all Ireland flags, St Patrick's saltire or this one . Comments, please. --Cavrdg 13:48, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The flag we currently use is still used at the commonwealth games, most recently at Manchester in 2002. That would suggest to me it is still considered the official flag. Hiding talk 18:32, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The topic of a new flag is mentioned at Flag_of_Northern_Ireland#A_new_flag?. There is no new flag. If there were, it should be in the above-referenced Flag of Northern Ireland. (SEWilco 18:45, 21 August 2005 (UTC))

Several of the choices mentioned create their own problems anyway. Ulster is not coterminous with Northern Ireland, for example - it contains a couple of counties in the RoI. The IFA image is better, but is not used outside sporting contexts. "St Patrick's Saltire" (i.e., the Fitzgerald arms flag) is as contentious as - if not more so than - the old governmental flag. And the Owen Roe O'Neill harp is not normally used for NI alone - especially the flag you've shown, which is one for the province of Leinster (using that for Northern Ireland would be roughly on par with using the flag of Texas to represent Oklahoma). The flax logo is a logo, not a flag - if you're going to that extent, you might as well use what {{NI-geo-stub}} uses - a small map of the six counties. The 1924-72 flag, though no longer official, is still the most widely recognised flag for Northern Ireland and is often regarded as de facto the flag of N.I., so if you want to use a flag, it is still the prime candidate. (For more on the N.I. flag issue, see FOTW's Northern Ireland pages Grutness...wha? 01:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

The official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag, but at occasions such as the Commonwealth Games or in International Football games the NI Flag is still used, and it is better to use it as the current flag on the page. When\If the assembly gets back up and running there will most likley be a new flag designed. But at the moment I think it is best to keep the NI Flag, as it is the most recognisable symbol for Northern Ireland and as Grutness said it has become the de facto flag of the country\provence. / Keith 17:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'Northern Ireland' is better known as Ulster.

As I am a Paisleyite from New Zealand, I hate the use of the term 'Northern Ireland', which implies that it is part of Ireland, when it is not. It is more commonly known as Ulster, to assert its historical links to the Kingdom of Ulster. Besides, Ulster is a British nation, not a province. - (Aidan Work 05:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC))

Typical. A if it's not part of Ireland, in which you pointed to the geographic article as opposed to the political article, then what body of land is it part of and when was it detached, i don't recall having to cross a bridge or anything on any trips to Newry. Also while it has historic links to Kingdom of Ulster, and in north it is commonly referred to as ulster, it does not contain all of ulster, considering their were three counties that are part of ulster that were left out of the partition and are in the republic and not YourPTR! 13:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)in the UK (Cavan, Donegal, and Monaghan) their for that is partly the reason that it not called Ulster or can not be officially. But being a Paisleyite, you selective use of facts and geography does not surprise me. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Once again, your complete and utter lack of understanding of Ireland comes through. Northern Ireland does not equal Ulster. Ulster is a province consisting of nine historical counties, three of which still exist as legal entities within the Republic of Ireland; one of which is a legal entity within Northern Ireland, five of which are fragmented into other entities within Northern Ireland. They are not, and never have been one in the same thing. When you have a basic understanding of the physical and political geography of the island of Ireland, come back. Until then, don't bother commenting. --Kiand 00:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

As with most issues, Work hasn't a clue what he is talking about. Quel surprise!!! FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Jtdirl, that is definitely a personal attack on my use of the name Ulster instead of 'Northern Ireland' in reference to the British nation. You're forgetting that Articles 2 & 3 have been deleted from the Irish Constitution, so therefore the Republic of Ireland's claim to the British nation of Ulster is as legitimate as Spain's claim to Gibraltar, & Argentina's claim to the Falkland Islands - illegal under international convention! - (Aidan Work 00:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC))

Erm, you're still missing one blindingly obvious problem here. 1/3 of Ulster is in the Republic of Ireland. Always has been, always will be. Nothing else is under question here, only the fact that Ulster and Northern Ireland are not synonyms.

Have you ever been to Nothern Ireland? Doubt it. --Kiand 00:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Kiand, I have a friend who comes from Co. Armagh. She is a Paisleyite like me. I know one guy who enjoyed his trip to Belfast. He hated Dublin, as to him, it was a real dump. Besides, Ulster, as in the British nation is very Scots in both culture & language, so therefore, Ulsterpeople aren't Irish. They're British. - (Aidan Work 00:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC))

Erm, will you please drop it about "Ulster". Ulster DOES NOT EQUAL NORTHERN IRELAND. Donegal isn't in Northern Ireland, Monaghan isn't in Northern Ireland, Cavan isn't in Norhern Ireland. I'm from Donegal, I'm -not- British, I -am- Irish, I -am- from Ulster.

You've never been here. You know nothing other than some heresay through third parties, who are clearly as biased as you are. --Kiand 00:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Kiand, you are right about an Irish Province of Ulster, which consists of 3 counties. When I am making a reference to Ulster, it is to the British nation that I am referring to. That is the difference. - (Aidan Work 03:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

You're refering to something that doesn't exist except in your own deluded little world, then. --Kiand 14:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Just to add a wee bit more to this "debate", anyone from Northern Ireland may be British, and may forgo partaking of citizenship of the Republic of Ireland - but they are Irish nonetheless, just as anyone born in the island before 1922 was Irish as well as being British (and the same way someone born in Scotland is Scottish as well as British, etc.) Of course, only a couple decades back, anyone in the Republic could take up British citizenship too, and citizens of the Republic are still treated as British citizens in the UK.

Just as Northern revisionism has tried to equate NI with Ulster, Republican revisionism has tried to erase Ireland's British heritage, and the fact that many proud Irishmen were British. No wonder British people in the North aren't happy to call themselves Irish any longer. One isn't encouraged to be British *and* Irish any longer, by either side.

But while there may be two jurisdictions, and two legal nationalities (citizens, subjects) - there is only one Ireland, one nation. The UK is traditionally made up of four countries, England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland - with the latter now represented by only a fraction of the country. The Unionists in Northern Ireland should be holding onto the Irish-British traditions that the rest of the country forsook, not attempting to pretend it isn't part of Ireland.

One sincerely hopes that the government of the Republic of Ireland not only take back our Republican heritage from the raving looney Republicans in the North (who now pose the gravest threat to democracy in the Republic), but re-establish our British heritage which has been forsaken by both the Republicans and the Unionists. The latter of whom seem to think it perfectly logical to be British and nothing else, or Northern Irish, or latch onto Ulster as the most convenient local heritage - despite it extending further than the six counties.

There should never have been a Flag of Northern Ireland created, it should have continued to use the Flag of St. Patrick that represented the whole British kingdom of Ireland. Any attempt to give Northern Ireland its own identity, rather than see it as the remnant of "British Ireland" was entirely misconceived.

If 1922 had happened in modern times we would have had a far more sophisticated approach than partition. No-one in Donegal, west Tyrone, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Cavan or Monaghan, benefitted one bit from partition. It was a catastrophe for that whole section of the country. Not to mention that if Northern Ireland was a cold house for Catholics, Dublin and the Free State were pretty miserable for southern Unionists (who of course had to suffer seeing DeValera set the fledgling nation back decades with his backward policies and ill-conceived fights with Britain).

zoney ♣ talk 23:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Zoney - I'll add my bit in here too. I agree with you on what you are saying that the island would be a whole lot better if in the North people acknowledged their Irish heritage and in the South acknowledged their British heritage.

However, even though some would like to think this, it is very wrong in calling the entire island a "country " or "nation" - it is a geographical island which we share together - part of the problem would be resolved if this could be recognised, removing all political elements, and that:

1. There are separate identities on the island

2. Both identities share common elements of both irish and british heritage

Your comment that "Any attempt to give Northern Ireland its own identity, rather than see it as the remnant of "British Ireland" was entirely misconceived." shows complete ignorance towards the Ulster-Scot identity. This identity is felt very strongly in many parts of the north, and existed long before partition. Northern Ireland gave somewhere for the Ulster-Scots to call theirs and hence Northern Ireland and Ulster are very importantly linked - much more so than Ulster and the 3 Southern counties. Part of our problems in the past has been a failure to recognise this Ulster-scot identity. It is too late to remove the newer Northern Ireland Ulster identity because it is there and is real.

The fact that the southern part even calls itself "Ireland" after the entire geographic island is also a core part of our problems - this is much worse than the "Ulster" terminology. I'm sure that if the Republic had it's official name in English as "Eire" or "Southern Ireland" then many unionists in the north would have no problem in calling themselves Irish and saying they are from Ireland in recognition of the common heritage. The words "Ireland" and "Irish" can either be political or geographic and highly confusing - almost all people in Northern Ireland will call themselves "Irish" geographically - remove the political definition of the word "Irish" or "Ireland", and then we have no problem.

The situation with the word "Ulster" is the same, except that "Ulster" was never made official for Northern Ireland. IMO the usage of the word "Ireland" is much worse than that of "Ulster", but there is nothing that we can do easily about the "Ireland" case because of its confusing official status.

Perhaps Northern Ireland should be renamed "Ulster"/"New Ulster"/"Northern Ulster" (or prob. best just best left as "Northern Ireland") and the Republic as "Eire" or back to "Southern Ireland" if you don't want to change NIs name - then we could both equally describe ourselves as from "Ireland" call ourselves "Irish" without a problem.

As to the flag - if the St. patrick's was kept for NI, then I'm sure that a few in the south would have complained. The st. patrick's cross is the only flag that can really represent the whole island, so for it to be representing only one part would be wrong. I actually think that the Northern Ireland flag should always have featured a diagonal st. patrick's cross in the background instead of an upright cross like st. georges' - that never made sense - perhaps this is a suggestion for the flag of Northern Ireland in the future.

Jonto 22:13, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

On the question of ignoring Ulster-Scots identity, how much less does that fit into an Irish identity than say the eccentric collection of an Irish speaker from Connemara, an Anglicised Dubliner, or a stereotypical Paddy from Kerry? Not to mention the different cultures of the higher classes (who were of course the most British prior to independence) and those street gurriers of incomprehensible local tongues? Any nation is a collection of local identities, some with external influences. However, I am not attempting to deny the fact that the Ulster-Scots identity exists, and has been further built up as a Northern Irish identity (for a slight majority of the people in the region). Just as an over-emphasised Celtic identity was built up by the early Statesmen in Ireland as a deliberate non-British identity for Ireland. Nevertheless, the Ulster-Scots identity is as much to be associated with Ireland as Scotland (and certainly has little to do with the United Kingdom concept of Britishness which is a far more recent idea than the cultural roots of Ulster-Scots).

I guess my essential point is that history continues to be rewritten by all sides, and all are deliberately attempting to create division between those living on this island (ironically, perhaps those wanting a United Ireland have cemented partition the most).

Also ironically, the Dublin administration is as far removed from some parts of the Republic as the London administration is from Northern Ireland. Down here in the South we know that Cork should be the true capital of Ireland :)

zoney ♣ talk 19:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I am from Ulster. I am an Irishman. What that ejit is saying about now Irishman in either Ulster or Northern Ireland is complete rubbish. Typical from a follower of Ian Paisley. Stick to the facts and keep the bigotry out of the article.

Quote:"Ulster, as in the British nation is very Scots in both culture & language, so therefore, Ulsterpeople aren't Irish. They're British."

So what will happen to "British" Ulster when Scotland becomes independent?Stevie21:33, 03 November 2006 (UTC)

If you are born in the British Isles you are British it is simple as that. And yes that includes ALL of Ireland, Ireland of course being the 2nd largest island of the British Isles. I hope that the only part of the British Isles that is not politically united with the rest - the 26 counties of the so called Irish Republic - will rejoin the rest of the British Isles politcally again someday. Then we can have real reunification of not only Ireland but of the British Isles. Ireland should be Irish within a British context, the same as Scotland, England and Wales. Those are the 4 main nations that make up the British Isles and all should be united together. To have 26 counties outside of that union and to have one of the nations of that union divided as a result does not make sense particularly in the long term. YourPTR! 13:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I suppose if you are from North America you are American? Zzzzzzzzzz!--Vintagekits 13:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

To answer the poster above my first post: Scotland will NEVER become indepedent! We WON'T let the same mistake happen twice! British simply means: English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Manx etc. Those first 4 are the home nations. It is sad that one of them has to be partially outside of the United Kingdom at present and therefore divided, but that doesnt change the fact that Ireland is British at LEAST in a geographical sense (and politically Northern "Ireland" is as well)! As for Canada, that has never been part of the United States but some Canadians do see themselves as American. America can refer to North America, North and South America or the United States of America. British refers to the British Isles and the nations that make up the archipelago that the UK & Southern Ireland share.YourPTR! 13:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

We will stop refering to Northern Ireland as "Ulster" when the Republic of Ireland stops calling itself "Ireland". It is NOT Ireland it is a PART of Ireland! It's funny how the Irish nationalist can dish it out but he can't take it! YourPTR! 11:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

As a Brit, I apologise for the ignorance shown in the post above. Whatever you would like to believe YourPTR, the fact is that Ireland has two meanings: the island of Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. It is perfectly acceptable to refer to either entity as Ireland and is blindingly obvious which is meant by the context in which the word appears.

While the situation in Northern Ireland is far from ideal, lots of people many with very partisan careers are making a huge effort to try to deal with what are, in retrospect, historical blunders. Mouthing off stupidities such as all of Ireland returning to the UK is revolting and exactly the sort of dimwitted nonsense that has poured petrol on the flames of the Troubles over many decades.

Most people outside Northern Ireland in the UK and Ireland have accepted the reality, have mutual respect for each other, and are striving to help the peace process on its way. Your ignorant outbursts do the opposite.

As per Wikipedia policy, I refrain from making personal attacks. This isn't one, simply a statement of fact. --AJKGordon 16:57, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I have to laugh at this discussion topic as it highlights the gross ignorance for Irish (and to an aspect, British) history! Like it or not, Ulster is more associated to Ireland and Irishness than to Britishness and Northern Ireland. Ulster is an Irish Province historically rich in gaelic culture and history and added to by the rich heritage of the Vikings, Monks, Ulster-Scots settlers and indeed its local Gaelic peoples. Ulster is officially a 9-County provincial area within the island of Ireland incorporating the three Southern Ulster counties and the 6 Northern Ireland Ulster counties. It was never officially recognised by Ireland , Britain, New Zealand, nor the international community to be the namesake of the Northern Ireland entity. Unfortunately it is only the Unionist community who incorrectly associate the Northern Ireland area as Ulster. I also see a POV above that the entire island of Ireland should be united in one great big political union of the British isles family (assumably under the direct rule of England)! Just because one big island invaded a smaller one centuries ago doesn't suggest legitimacy for union. Before looking west-ward for British expansion to Ireland, please look northwards, in-house to the large cracks forming in your union with Scotland and the new Nationalist Scottish Government. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  18:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] many foreigners associate [this flag] with Northern Ireland?

This implies that very few British or Irish people make the connection. i find this highly unlikely.Glennh70 06:32, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I -think- the implication is that most people outside the UK and Ireland assume the Red Hand Flag is the flag of NI, yet theres quite divided opinions within the UK and Ireland; although nearly everyone here does associate the flag with NI. --Kiand 11:18, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes - it should be described as the de facto flag due to its majority association - see my comments below.

Yet if we want to base an unofficial flag as official in this way, we could also make the point that many people outside Ireland and Great Britain associate the Irish Tricolour as the flag of the whole island of Ireland! This does not mean that its true and thus officiality cannot be dictated by hearsay. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  18:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Unofficial"

I see that there are many incidences throughout WP (not actually in this article, but this is best place to discuss) where it is said here that this flag is "unofficial". This is very vague as it is not clear what exact definition is meant by "official". It could be argued that it is "officially" used in the Commonwealth games, but not "officially" used on government property due to the The Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) act 2000.

If similar logic to that is used throughout WP the Union Jack could also be described as the "unofficial" UK flag as no law has actually been passed to make it the UK flag - see union jack, and scroll down to the "status" section.

Surely it is better to describe it as the "de facto" flag, as opposed to "unofficial" - the term "de facto" implying that there is no law associated with a currently active governmental institution.

Stating that it is unofficial seems to imply a POV that it is not widely recognised as the flag to uniquely represent NI, when it in fact it clearly is, and at present there is no widely known alternative flag associated uniquely with NI. Jonto 22:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

As more evidence of how vexiological "officialness" does not seem to matter in a British context see here Jonto 16:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved comments from the top

If the flag displayed is the de facto flag of NI, what is the de jure flag? Does NI have no "official" flag?

Also, I'm curious as to why St. George's cross is used rather than St. Patrick's saltire. I understand that this flag is displayed by Unionists as a gesture of allegiance to Britain, but surely the Scots can be described as "Unionists" yet this does not prevent them from flying St. Andrew's saltire rather than St. George's cross (which is of course associated with England in particular, not the whole of the UK).

Finally, can anybody explain to me the significance of the hand? The significance of the positioning of the fingers was explained, but not the actual significance of he hand. Thanks.Loomis51 19:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no official flag bar the Union Flag as part of the UK. No idea. The "Red Hand of Ulster", which is also on the flag for the entire province, has to do with a story (or myth? I don't know) about a battle challenge about the first to lay their hand on the land of Ulster, which involved the winner cutting off a hand (hence red from the blood) and throwing it across a river to land on the ground first. I think. Its been a long time since I did history. Like a lot of things to do with Ulster in general its been taken to mean Northern Ireland. --Kiand 19:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Kiand for answering two of my questions. I'm still curious about the third. Why is St. George's cross, representing England, used, rather than St. Patrick's saltire. Like I said, from my limited undertstanding, being a Unionist is about allegiance to the UK, not England in particular (although I could be wrong). Also, like I said, (despite the Scottish Nationalists, who, by the way, don't want to separate from the UK and form a republic like in southern Ireland, they simply want the UK to become a more federalist state with specific powers devolved to a Scottish parliament) the Scots by and large can be described as "Unionists" in the sense that they want to remain British, yet they fly St. Andrew's saltire as thir national flag. So basically, why is St. George's cross used in NI's flag?Loomis51 22:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article actually says that its not based on the George's Cross, its the Ulster flag with the yellow removed to -look- like the George's Cross. --Kiand 22:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Loomis51, the Scottish nationalists _do_ want to separate from the UK. In fact when/if Scotland leaves, there will be no UK. Initially Scotland would probably keep Queen Elizabeth as the head of state, but most nationalists are in favour of a republic. Although you are right in that most Scots Unionists are also happy to fly the Saltire as well as the Union Flag.

[edit] Northern Ireland Flags Issue

There is a proposal that the NI Flags Issue page should be merged with this one. I think it shouldn't as this page refers to the flag of NI, whereas the flags issue page deals with the broader issue, including flags that aren't specific to NI.

The fact that I created the flags issue page also may influence my feelings on the issue, but I do believe, for the reasons given above that things should stay as they are.

NotMuchToSay 18:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Open and closed hand

I would agree with User:Jonto. The open or closed thumb issue looks like a red herring as the coat of arms of Northern Ireland simply requires a right hand. Here is an open thumb nationalist usage [4]. P.S. An interesting use at [5] --Henrygb 17:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not as clear cut as one way is British and another Irish. I think most people, who actually realise there is a difference, have come to expect the Northern Ireland flag to have a open thumb and Ulster flag to have a closed thumb at least. Also I would suggest that this one is somewhere in between open and closed. Some sort of cross-community hand, if you will.  Keithology  Talk!  18:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is also a Northern Ireland flag with a closed hand. I think it is best if the unsourced text is removed from the article, but the images of the 6 county flag kept with an open thumb, and the 9 with a closed. Jonto 23:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only one council?

"One exception is Lisburn, where the council has decided to fly the Union Flag every day of the year." I notice that outside the council offices in Coleraine there is always* a Union Flag. Could this just be a case of out of date Information? Also on that note, I would be very surprised if the DUP-heavy Ballymena Council hasn't voted in favour? (* I'm not there 24/7 but whenever I have driven past - a couple of times a week)  Keithology  Talk!  18:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Auto Peer Review

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[edit] Merge Northern Ireland flags issue into Flag of Northern Ireland

Would it not be best to merge the two articles seeing as Northen Ireland does not have a flag of its own, the flags issue would be able to explain it without having a separate page. --Barry entretien 23:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Agreed, As there is no specific "Flag of Northern Ireland" and the two pages basically go through the same arguements then they should be merged.--Vintagekits 23:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
• Disagree. The broader issue should be left with its own article. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 10:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Disagree- NI does have a flag of its own. Astrotrain 14:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Agreed, Northen Ireland does not have an individual flag as per the British Government. --Barry entretien 21:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly Disagree, this article is about the disagreements surrounding the flags used in Northern Ireland, not any one particular flag. There are, however, parts of the Flag of Northern Ireland which could be removed. NotMuchToSay 20:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
• Agreed, as Northern Ireland has no offical flag the two articles should be merged.--padraig3uk 12:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Disagree - On a purely technical point they are both quite substantial articles. The Flag of Northern Ireland page should just focus on flags used by Northern Ireland and the laws surrounding their use. The Northern Ireland flags issue should deal with the wider issue of flags in Northern Ireland and their meanings. « Keith ^t/_e» 13:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
• Disagree, they are fine the way they are. --Guinnog 13:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll remove the merger proposal since most people are not in favour. NotMuchToSay 19:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To Resemble the St George's Cross

I changed

"The yellow background became white, to more closely resemble the flag of England." to "The yellow background became white, with the result that it more closely resembles the flag of England"

It may seem subtle, but the original implied (or at least could have been interpreted as implying) that the intention was to resemble the English flag and I'm not sure that was the case. I would prefer they'd use the Cross of St Patrick, but I'm told the red upright cross was kept to highlight the heritage of the former province of Ulster. I'm not sure what the reason was for the introduction of the white when the Coat of Arms was granted. beano 01:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The flag was based on the English flag see here as per the man who designed the coat of arms on which the flag is based Sir Gerald Wollaston the only thing that it has from the old Ulster flag is the red hand --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 17:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Any source [6] that says "The Union Flag of 1606 is still used by some loyalist groups in Ulster who prefer not to see the St. Patrick's cross on the flag." is not credible. 88.109.49.164 13:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the dubious reference and re-added the "and the flag of the Irish province of Ulster" as per the citation given, which is from the same database as one of the sources supporting the "based on the English flag" theory. beano 21:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV tag

Could we please discuss any controversial changes here rather than edit-warring? What do people think of the compromise I have inserted? The tag is meant as a last resort after we fail to reach consensus here in any case. --Guinnog 15:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Guinnog, well said! I did try and bring Jonto tp the discussion but he is unwilling - hopefully he will start now. I am happy with the current edit.--Vintagekits 15:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

There must be some reference to the Ulster Banner in the introduction for the simple reason that if someone says "Northern Ireland flag" they will, without exception, be referring to this. This campaign to eradicate it and pretend it no longer exists is getting beyond the ridiculous. I would propose something along the lines of:

Northern Ireland has not had its own unique government sanctioned flag since 1972, when its government was prorogued however the Ulster Banner (see below) is still used unofficially, in some circles, when there is a desire to represent Northern Ireland as a distinct entity. For official purposes, the Union Flag flag of the United Kingdom is used.

or something similar. I'm not going to obsess over the exact wording but I feel the point should be conveyed. And to pre-empt some of the impending rants about the flag's lack of legal status, see Flag of Wales. beano 02:33, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

There is reference to the Ulster Banner it is prominently displayed near the top of the Article under the Union Flag, it is also dealt with in the first section after the lead. I don't think any more is necessary.--padraig3uk 08:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit warring

There seems to be alot of edit warring on the article, yet very little discussion here to justify any of it, so can editors try and discuss changes before hand.--padraig3uk 21:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other Flags Listed

As per P3UK's request, I'm explaining this edit.

This article is to illustrate the "flag of Northern Ireland" (although it's already been severely disrupted by the removal of the flag to which people are almost always referring when using the term from the header). There is therefore no requirement for the tricolour to be more prominent than any of the other "other flags" illustrated. Frankly I agree that there is doubt as to whether the cross of St George needs to be there at all, but another editor felt it important to stress that the NI flag was based on the English one so it's there. beano 23:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I added the Flag of England because that is what the flag was based on but I do agree with you, the article needs only 2 flags the Butcher's Apron and the Ulster Banner, if the tricolour goes so does the flag of england and the flag of ulster.--Barryob Vigeur de dessus 23:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with the layout of the article as it stands, or the inclusion of the English, Ulster or Tricolour flags, as they are relevent to the content in the article.--padraig3uk 23:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the union flag, and the tricolour should be represented as they are the ones used mostly in the six counties. The other flags can be there for historical purposes.--Diarmaid 02:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Diarmud but I don't believe that's true. I don't think the tricolour is any more used than the Ulster Banner and you're also ignoring the point that neither the tricolour is a flag designed specifically for Northern Ireland. The Union Flag is there on the grounds that it's the official/legally recognised flag. 88.111.55.148 11:51, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

"I don't think the tricolour is any more used than the Ulster Banner" - Disagree. Look around buddy. While there is no 'official' flag for the six counties that everyone can agree on, communities will use either the union flag or the tricolour. Hence both are represented. I also disagree with relabelling the flag from 'Ireland' to 'Republic of Ireland', tricolour is just as relevant in six counties as in twenty-six. Furthermore the actual Wiki template is called Flag of Ireland. Diarmaid 11:28, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It is clear that some editors are insisting on having the Flag of the Irish Republic here to make a point. This is an article about the Flag of Northern Ireland- therefore it should discuss that flag and it should be displayed at the top of the article. Astrotrain 17:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Astrotrain the flag of Northern Ireland is displayed on the top of the article, its the Union Flag, the former government flag is also displayed just below it.--padraig3uk 17:34, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Diarmaid, I've taken a look around. In fact over the past few days a huge number of Ulster Banner's have been appeared in Belfast in preparation for the 12th. Also, if the argument here is that the Ulster Banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland because of it's lack of legal standing, it's preposterous to suggest that the tricolour is the flag of all Ireland for the same reason. Padraig, referring to the Union Flag is as the "flag of Northern Ireland" is just wrong, just as the Star Spangled Banner is not the "flag of Florida". beano 23:10, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

beano, I have never said the Union Flag is the national flag of NI, but it is the only flag recognised under British law. In the same token the Ulster Banner was never the flag of NI, even the 1954 Flag and Emblem Act, passed by the Stormont parliament only mentioned and gave protection to the Union Flag, it totaly ignored the Ulster Banner the flag that same parliament brought into existance to represent its own government a year prior to Act being passed.--padraig3uk 23:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

As long as the Irish flag and the union flag are shown together, equal size, I don't mind whether the old state flag is included. Diarmaid 11:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I repeat, there is NO justification for including the tricolour so prominently beyond POV pushing. It is not the legal flag (Union Jack) nor is it used specifically for Northern Ireland. It may be worth including on the grounds that it is flown in nationalists who view it as their flag (ie and not just that of the Republic). The Union Flag is the legal flag and the Ulster Banner is the only one used as a flag for Northern Ireland (as a distinct entity).

Nonsense - how can it be POV pushing in saying that the Irish flag and the union flag should be shown together, equal size? It is cross community representation. Many nationalists do not recognise the six counties as being viably seperate from the rest. Saying the union flag should be given prominence to the detriment of the proper Irish flag is unionist POV pushing, hence why BOTH should be prominent, problem solved. There is no 'flag of Northern Ireland' atm per se, only the union flag and the tricolour. Diarmaid 15:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

At the end of the day, when someone says "The Northern Ireland flag", how many mean the tricolour? In reality the Ulster Banner should be at the top for this reason, with a note that it is not (any longer) official and that the government only use the Union Jack (with a reference to the tricolour being flown by nationalists later in the article if it's felt necessary). beano 16:43, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Beano, there seems to a new flag infobox which could be used here for the Ulster Banner to note that it is unofficial. The UB needs to be at the top of the article since this is the only flag of Northern Ireland in use. The tricolour has obviously been included to POV push. Astrotrain 10:24, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree, union flag should be at the top. Tricolour inclusion is not a POV push, suggesting so simply shows your own political views. Unionists, a national minority, fly the union flag to mark territory in the six counties the same way as nationalists do. However it does have legal weight which is why, I believe, it should be at the top over the Ulster banner which has neither legal weight nor official status. Diarmaid 15:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

The UK Parliament which is the is the supreme legislative body of Northern Ireland says the Union Flag is Northern Irelands flag so it get pride and place at the top of the article the UB gets mentiond later on as it used to be the flag. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 10:27, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Agree, I'm fine with the article as it currently stands. Diarmaid 15:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "banned tricolour"

The flag of the republic was NOT banned at any time in Northern Ireland, contrary to what the caption below that flag says. This needs rectified immediately.Traditional unionist 21:42, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I never noticed that, your correct it was never banned, can one of the admins correct this.--padraig3uk 21:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish tricolour

The Irish tricolour is 1. the flag used by nationalist and republicans from Northern Ireland to represent themselves and 2. under the terms of th former articles two and three was the flag of all ireland including the O6 and therefore should be represented in the article in and similar manner to the former flag of the Privy council.--Vintagekits 22:10, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Changes

1. "Some" sports teams is not necessary. You have been repeatedly asked to provide an instance of a team representing Northern Ireland that uses any flag other than the Ulster Banner. So far you have not done so. Until you can (and I don't believe there are any), some stays out. There is no reason to include it other than to undermine the flag. 2. "although it never had any civic status" is not disputed, but misleading. When you specifically say "to represent the government of Northern Ireland" there is no need to include this rider, especially when under UK tradition, according to your own source, no UK flags have civic status and again. 3. "commonly used during this period and beyond as the de facto civil flag. - 'by Unionists'. " and sporting organisations, and tv channels representing individual NI athletes. I could go on... beano 11:51, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The Ulster Banner never had de-facto status, for that to happen it would have to acceptable to all sides of the community there, which it never was, as it was always viewed as an Unionist Flag, using your arguement then the Tricolour would also qualify as a de-facto flag, as it like the Ulster banner never had civic status either in Northern Ireland but is used by a large percentage of the population.--padraig3uk 12:04, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Can editors stop removing referenced material that supports its continued use in sport internationaly.--padraig3uk 13:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The continuing removal of referenced material is vandalism, there is no justification for its removal.--padraig3uk 14:01, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Padraig3uk that the edit war must stop. On the content issue I think:

No need for the ROI tricolour here, unless someone can come up with an encyclopedic reason to include it.

No '"Some" sports teams', unless sports teams representing NI and not using the UB can be verifiably found

No "although it never had any civic status"; we don't report a negative and, sorry Padraig, flags do not have to be acceptable to all sides of the community to have de facto status.

Can I strongly recommend that editors to whom this sort of thing has life-or-death importance please argue it out here rather than warring over the article. Thanks. --John 15:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Is there a reliable, neutral source for the UB's de facto status? Scalpfarmer 16:10, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

By definition, de facto status is almost impossible to cite. Evidence has been provided that it is used by sporting organisations, some (unionist) councils, international television stations, web sites selling flags [7], Britannica [8], Google image search for "northern ireland flag" [9] etc etc. beano 18:02, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

As Vintagekits has stated above, can editors please stop removing the Tricolour. It is relevant to the 'displaying flags' section and furthermore features quite dominantly in the six counties as people would know, and has been subject to a legal attempt to gain equal status with the union flag. Removing it *altogether* is little more than an immature POV push. Diarmaid 23:07, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The flag of the Republic of Ireland is completely irrelevant on a page entitiled 'Flag of Northern Ireland'. There is already a Northern Ireland flags issue article where the display of the Republic's Tricolour is perfectly acceptable, but not here. Jonto

Disagree. Diarmaid 23:31, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 08:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

May I respectfully suggest that those of you with a passionate view on this matter leave it to less partisan editors to resolve? It seems that the inclusion or exclusion of the Irish tricolour in the relevant section is being fought along partisan lines. An encyclopaedia's job is to report reality rather than idealism and to be completely NPOV. This edit war achieves neither. --AJKGordon 09:19, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

With respect, there's nothing partisan about wanting this article to be about the Flag of Northern Ireland, and not flags of other countries. There is a seperate article dealing with the complexities of flags and symbols in NI. Interesting point about leaving the issue to uninvolved editors, but completely unworkable I think. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 09:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it's obvious that it is partisan. Just clicking on the user pages for those for and against clearly demonstrates that. --AJKGordon 16:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no more justification for including the tricolour here than there is in including the Union Jack in the Flag of Ireland article, in fact, possibly less so. See below for proposed solution. beano 13:07, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

You see, that is the sort of totally unreasonable statement that shows how partisan this debate is. There is a degree of justification for it due to the controversy. How much and whether it justified inclusion or not is what needs deciding. I have added my suggestion in the section below. --AJKGordon 19:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Displaying Flags section

This one seems to be causing the controversy above. I would contest that this entire section belongs in the Northern Ireland flags issue article, not the Flag of Northern Ireland one. Thoughts? beano 13:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I would agree, they are arguing over this on that article as well.--padraig3uk 13:58, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually I would agree with this as it might avoid much of the reverting that is going on and also as long as an eye is kept on the content of this article.--Vintagekits 19:23, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

A better solution in my view would be to merge the articles. Flags are symbolic and that symbolism is what causes the controversy. Both articles are relatively short and the merger would only enhance this encyclopedia. --AJKGordon 19:35, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

This was suggested before. See here.--Vintagekits 19:37, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks. That's a shame. The whole thing seems rather petty from an outside perspective and is one of the major problems with Wikipedia. Hopefully a calmer, more neutral and more knowledgeable head can step in and create an irrefutable argument as to why one thing or the other! --AJKGordon 19:41, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

That sure would be great.--Vintagekits 19:42, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger proposal

Given that there is considerable cross-over between the Northern Ireland flags issue page and the Flag of Northern Ireland page, I propose that these pages be merged. The Ulster Banner page now exists to cover the actual NI flag, anyway.

NotMuchToSay 14:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

We had this discussion above and it was rejected, also the Ulster Banner is not the flag of Northern Ireland so that article dosen't cover the issue.--Padraig 14:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

That issue is subject to arbitration, so both the proposal, and Padraig's assertion cannot be delt with before that has been resolved.Traditional unionist 14:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

My assertion is based on fact and the arbitration isn't about that at all, its about the misuse of the Ulster Banner on templates protraying Northern Ireland today.--Padraig

The flags issue paged should be merged into this one not the other way around --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 15:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I repeat my previous comment.Traditional unionist 15:03, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

We certainly did have this discussion earlier, and at that time I was in strong disagreement with the proposals. Since then, however, the two pages have become more similar and there has been a seperate page on the Ulster Banner. This has changed the issue. Essentially however, we have three pages (one of which was created by myself) when we should have two - one about the Government of NI flag, the other about the issues surrounding flags in NI. Whatever we call these pages is up for discussion.

NotMuchToSay 15:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

We should wait until the arbitration takes place. Parties have made statements, and the arbitrator is taking things forward. Until then, no move or moves should be made. Astrotrain 15:58, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Arbcom or mediation ...or both? Biofoundationsoflanguage 17:29, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The mediation is only dealing with the use of the Ulster Banner not the page itself, I agree with User:NotMuchToSay we need two pages one dealing with the old flag (Ulster Banner)and one dealilng with the issue of flags in NI currenlty spread across two page Flag of Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland flags issue the latter could be easily merged into the former. --Barryob Vigeur de dessus 21:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I am against the merger proposal of the Northern Ireland flags issue article with the flag of NI article as the issues arising in the Northern Ireland flags issue article may overshadow the default information that users may expect to find in the this article. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  21:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ulster Banner straw poll

Hello there,

A straw poll has opened at this section of the United Kingdom talk page regarding the use of the Ulster Banner for that article's circumstances only. To capture a representative result as possible, you are invited to pass your opinion there. If joining the poll, please keep a cool head, and remain civil. Hope to see you there, Jza84 22:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irish Tricolour

I see that there has been a bit of an edit war over the last few days over the inclusion of the Tricolour on this page. It strikes me that on this particular occasion, Padraig is right: the article does discuss the fact that Nationalists fly the Irish Tricolour and because of that, it seems quite reasonable for the article to display the Tricolour. This doesn't mean the article is claiming the tricolour to be the official flag of Northern Ireland — clearly it isn't. (Those who are suspicious that I am just a yes man for Padraig should take a look at this mediation request which should make it clear that I am anything but.) — ras52 00:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. The article does not claim that the tricolour is the flag of NI but it's highly POV to claim that the tricolour has no relevance to NI. Further, the repeated claim by AnonIP that a foreign flag has no business in an article about NI conveniently ignores the potential dual citizenship status that NI-born people have. Not to say anything about the whole business of Irish identity.

Inclusion of the tricolour in the article in my view, a Brit, does not indicate any Republicanism POV. Especially as the Union Flag is prominently displayed at the beginning of the article which of course reflects technical reality. ᴀᴊᴋɢᴏʀᴅᴏɴ«» 14:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Displaying the Union Jack at the beginning of the article does not reflect "technical reality" - the Union Jack is not the flag of Northern Ireland. --Setanta 00:52, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't a edit war as such we had a number of anon IPs trying to add the Union Flag into the Flag of Ireland article, which was reverted as the Union Flag is already included on that article in Template:IrishFlags, so they were removing the Tricolour here to try and score a point, it would help if some of them read articles first before engaging in their POV pushing.--Padraig 15:42, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another pro-Republican edit protected by Wikipedia

In future, I will be keeping track of which articles/templates etc are frozen in a state which favours the pro-Republican agenda of hiding and diminishing the flag of Northern Ireland from Wikipedia.

This is one of many.

--Setanta 00:54, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• During edit wars, articles get protected at whichever point the protecting admin finds them. They are always the Wrong Version for someone. However, given that I've just protected the article on an edit by an editor who was previously blocked after a sockpuppetry case that I began against him, I think you might want to withdraw that statement. ELIMINATORJR 01:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

You may think my statement was a personal attack against you Eliminator, but I can assure you that your assumption, if that is the case, is wrong. Ordinarily I would perfectly understand the point about the wrong version.. however, it is clear to me that, with regard to this issue, most if not all articles in question have been frozen in a state I describe above.

Feel free to prove me wrong. I will be keeping an eye on this situation, and this is a method by which I have chosen to do so. I will not be withdrawing my statement as I believe it is a valid observation to make. --Setanta 01:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

If I had seen the page 13 minutes earlier, it would've been protected in "your" version. The protection is only for a week, let's see if we can sort something out via the talk pages before then. My main concern was that I didn't want to start handing out blocks so soon after the ArbCom ruling. ELIMINATORJR 02:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, I was not making a personal attack against you Eliminator. --Setanta 03:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Setanta, read this The Union Flags and flags of the United Kingdom your edit is factualy incorrect, but I think you already know that, so please stop your edit warring on the issue.--Padraig 09:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

This proves just how pointless the arbcom really was. Hasn't solved a damn thing. The Union flag is the only official flag used for Northern Ireland. It is not the flag of Northern Ireland, which is de facto the other flag.Traditional unionist 12:21, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I dont understand what you are talking about - what is this "flag of Northern Ireland" of which you speak!?--Vintagekits 19:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Well, shall we see how effective ArbCom was. I am going to unprotect the article. Talk before reverting, please. ELIMINATORJR 12:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[de-indent] Padraig, I've already read the little PDF file you keep repeating, ad nauseam. I've already told you that central government's policy on which flag(s) they chose to display for official ceremonies/functions in any given location does not change the fact that the Union Jack is not the flag of Northern Ireland.

Vintagekits, the flag of Northern Ireland is the flag of Northern Ireland. Quite obvious, I'd have thought. --Setanta 22:03, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Aye right, if its was that simple and obvious then we wouldnt have been discussing it rationally ;) for months on end.--Vintagekits 19:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair Warning

Padraig and Setanta, consider this the warning per the ArbCom case that's just concluded.

3.2) To address the extensive edit-warring that has taken place on articles relating to The Troubles, as well as the Ulster banner and British baronets, any user who hereafter engages in edit-warring or disruptive editing on these or related articles may be placed on Wikipedia:Probation by any uninvolved administrator. This may include any user who was a party to this case, or any other user after a warning has been given. The administrator shall notify the user on his or her talkpage and make an entry on Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Log of blocks, bans, and probations. The terms of probation, if imposed on any editor, are set forth in the enforcement ruling below.

   Passed 5-0 at 08:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC) 

2) Participants placed on probation are limited to one revert per article per week with respect to the set of articles included in the probation. Any participant may be briefly banned for personal attacks or incivility. Reversion of edits by anonymous IPs do not count as a revert.

   Passed 7-0 at 08:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

If you don't want to be placed on the probation terms, STOP EDIT-WARRING. SirFozzie 18:43, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

An "Arb.." .. what..? I have no idea what you're on about I'm afraid, SirFozzie. --Setanta 22:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Compromise

How about a compromise arranagement, where both flags are shown at the top?

Northern Ireland has not had its own unique, government sanctioned flag since its government was prorogued in 1972, and abolished in 1973 under the Northern Ireland Constitution Act 1973. During official events, the British government uses the Union Flag which is the official flag of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The Ulster Banner remains in use by Unionists, a number of sporting organisations in Northern Ireland and some local government authorities under Unionist control.^[7] Astrotrain 21:20, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Its already shown on the top under the Union flag.--Padraig 21:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

So you would be ok with this arrangement? Astrotrain 21:25, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

No the current arrange is correct, why would a former governmental banner be shown the same size as the Union Flag, it has no status since 1972/3, your trying to convey that it has some status today.--Padraig 21:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not trying to do anything other than suggest a compromise to stop the edit war. Astrotrain 21:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no edit war, except Setanta trying to push his pov.--Padraig 21:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no compromise for the flag of Northern Ireland: it is either the flag of Northern Ireland or it isn't the flag of Northern Ireland. Simple. This flag: is the flag of Northern Ireland. This flag: is not the flag of Northern Ireland - it is the Union Jack - the flag of the United Kingdom.

Padraig please stop with your personal attacks and assumptions: I will not warn you again. --Setanta 22:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

As has been already pointed out to you the British Government don't agree with you: The Union Flags and flags of the United Kingdom Northern Ireland has no national flag except the Union flag, whereas the flags of England, Scotland and Wales are classed as National flags. So your attempt to say otherwise is false. Where is the personal attack in my comment above.--Padraig 22:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, Setanta hasn't changed any of the text, merely moved the images around. Astrotrain 22:49, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Padraig, your statement suggesting that the British government doesnt agree with me is incorrect.

Your personal attack was directly above my own post - it wasnt hard to miss. --Setanta 22:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Care to explain what this for then.--Padraig 23:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

It is irrelevant to the discussion we are currently having about your personal attacks Padraig. I have no idea why you are asking about it, nor why even you are wikistalking me. Frankly, you are making me uncomfortable. Please desist - I don't do the same thing to you. I suspect that you are becoming paranoid and obsessed to some degree or other, though I hope this is not the case.

However, since you appear to have an unhealthy interest in my edit history (as opposed to having a healthy interest in editing and improving Wikipedia), I would like to draw attention to more examples of your apparent obsession - these few are merely recent examples... I'm afraid to go back any further and find that you have mentioned my name on any kind of regular basis. Examples are here, here and here - all three after and despite my having warned you about WP:NPA. --Setanta 09:08, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

You must be very sensative if you evenly remotely regard then as personal attacks, as for following you, the articles your edit warring on are on my watchlist.--Padraig 17:30, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Setanta wrote: "There is no compromise for the flag of Northern Ireland: it is either the flag of Northern Ireland or it isn't the flag of Northern Ireland. Simple. This flag: is the flag of Northern Ireland. This flag: is not the flag of Northern Ireland - it is the Union Jack - the flag of the United Kingdom."

Neither of those flags are the flag of Northern Ireland. Asserting that the Ulster Banner is the flag of Northern Ireland is pointless - there is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that your assertion is incorrect. Please provide reputable sources as evidence that the Ulster Banner is (not was) the flag of Northern Ireland and refrain from simply asserting that it is. Until that happens it is perfectly reasonable to show that Northern Ireland has no official flag and the background as to why and which flags are used in what capacity. AJKGORDON«» 12:49, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] OR removed

"claim they do not recognise Northern Ireland as a distinct entity (despite affirmations to the contrary contained in the Belfast Agreement..." was sourced direct to the Belfast Agreement, which is drawing conclusions from a primary source. Please cite a secondary source that has made that observation. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 10:57, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree it should be removed it WP:OR.--Padraig (talk) 14:11, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not an intrepretration. The agreemement discuesses northern ireland as a distinct legal and constitutional entity. Sinn Fein adminidter british rule in Northern Ireland under its provisions.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It is an interpretation, where does it state in the GFA that Sinn Fein, accepts that northern Ireland is a distinct legal and constitutional entity, remember the GFA also states that the Nationalist community aspire to an United Ireland, Sinn Féin agreed to take part in the Assembly to represent and protect the Nationalist communitys interests, that dosen't imply acceptance of a failed political entity.--Padraig (talk) 14:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

It does indeed. If it were failed then why the need for an assembly? If it were failed why would SF members become ministers of the crown 80 years after it was founded? The agreement does indeed state nationalist aspirations, but it also undertpins the status quo, SF accepted the agreement, calling for its "full implementation"<refhttp://www.sinnfein.ie/peace/good_friday</ref>, which includes the declaration of support.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:38, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

That is your personal interperation of the issue, that fact that Sinn Féin have agreed to work the Assembly as the largest Nationalist party whilst still working towards an United Ireland, dosen't mean they accept the state as viable or recognise its right to exist.--Padraig (talk) 15:20, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Which isn't the point. The point is that they are administering partition despite claioming not to recogbnise it's legitimacy. It is clear from the agreement that that is what the agreement requires. And SF willingly state their support for the agreementTraditional unionist (talk) 15:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Well the Unionist parties seem to have no problem cherrypicking which parts of the GFA they want to adhere to and which to ignore, so why shouldn't the Nationalists do the same.--Padraig (talk) 15:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Padraig that sounds very like an admission that TU is correct. Signatories "recognise the legitimacy of whatever choice is freely exercised by a majority of the people of Northern Ireland with regard to its status, whether they prefer to continue to support the Union with Great Britain or a sovereign united Ireland;" is an express acceptance that NI is part of the UK and therefore distinct from the Republic of Ireland. I'm sure you're not suggesting they believe it to be an integral part of the United Kingdom.

I accept that they "claim not to recognise" is may go against WP:WTA, but if claim is to be removed then we need a suitable alternative to the word 'recognise'. Considering they invented their own names for Northern Ireland (Occupied 6 Counties, etc.) they clearly know what it is. beano (talk) 21:46, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The GFA also accepted the Irish Language Act, the full devolving of Justice powers to the Assembly, all things that all parties accepted and signed up to, which the Unionists are now trying to delay. The GFA may say that all parties recognise the UK, but it dosen't mean that Sinn Féin do, and to clain that is WP:OR, show me a statement from the Sinn Féin that states they do, or even from the SDLP for that matter. So without a source its WP:OR and shouldn't be included.--Padraig (talk) 22:18, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you should read the agreement again padraig - your knowledge of it is very poor. No mention of the Irish Language Act, infact that proprsal breaks the spirit of the agreement. The agreement states all parties agree to administer Northern Ireland. All parties means Sinn Fein, and you can't agrue that it doesn't! They state that they support the FULL implementation of the agreement. That means administering partition. This needs to be highlighted in a comprehensive article.Traditional unionist (talk) 14:19, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with my knowledge at all between the GFA and the SAA all parties agreed to implement an Irish Language Act amongst other things. All the parties agreed to share power to adminster Northern Ireland, but the agreement recognise that nationalists aspire to and are working toward re-unification, they are not working for the maintainance of the Union. The DUP and UUP may sell that line to their electorate, but its not the reality on the ground, the Unionist population is ageing, and in 10/20yrs they will be a minority amongst the voting population in Northern Ireland, and the cross border ties with the south will make the border non-existant as the purse string from London are reduced.--Padraig (talk) 14:55, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear. Let's just remember what the article said shall we?

• Similarly, many nationalists and republicans, claim they do not recognise Northern Ireland as a distinct entity (despite affirmations to the contrary contained in the Belfast Agreement....

The text never referred to the signatories of the Good Friday Agreement, it referred to Irish nationalists and republicans. You cannot substitute one for the other, it's a misleading conclusion. The people referred to in the article ("many nationalists and republicans") did not sign the GFA, so it's completely irrelevant. Using the rough estimate of between 47 and 49% of Unionists voting against the GFA, the conclusion could be drawn that "half of Unionists do not recognise Northern Ireland as a distinct entity". The GFA is a primary source per policy, and conclusions like that cannot be drawn from it. It's similar to pointing to a manifesto from any UK political party and saying "x% of people are in favour of a, b, c, d, e, f, g, h, i, j, k etc etc". Simply because someone agrees with one (or many) parts of something and vote accordingly, it does not follow that they agree with all of it simply based on counting votes. Cite secondary sources, not interpret primary sources. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 11:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to Change this articles title to Former Flag of Northern Ireland

Hi, I am aware some editors here are saying that the Union Flag is not the flag of NI officially, but that of the UK and others saying that the former Ulster Banner NI Government flag isnt neither. So i am putting a proposal that this article be changed to Former Flag of Northern Ireland to highlight these points. While allowing the display of the Ulster Banner as the main flag on this article. I am interested to see how other editors feel regarding this. --  RÓNÁN   "Caint / Talk"  22:09, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Disagree, the article as it stands reflects the current state regarding the use of flags in Northern Ireland, and according to the British Government the Union Flag is the official and only flag. As for the Ulster Banner there is already a seperate article in Ulster Banner where the banner is displayed first. Also the Flag of XXXX is a series of articles, and I don't see why N Ireland should be treated any different to any other country/state, if it has no unique flag then we should state that.--Padraig (talk) 00:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Protected again

Discussion was at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#The Troubles - ArbCom remedy request for views. BLACKKITE 15:30, 14 January 2008 (UTC)