Talk:Flag of Montenegro

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Heraldry and Vexillology Portal

Flag of Montenegro is within the scope of the Heraldry and vexillology WikiProject, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of heraldry and vexillology. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
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Is there an article on the Petrovic family? Or Nikola? I don;t know the right spellings to look under.... FZ 17:20, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, Avala ( FZ 19:52, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC) )

Just a placeholder for an image until there's text in the article about it. Nikola 09:48, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm just moving this to the article now. — OwenBlacker 11:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Gold fringe

The article says that the flag is not usually garnised with a gold border, BBC News' pictures of the recent referrendum display gold-bordered Montenegrin flags exclusively. Should the paragraph be amended? Erath 16:06, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

The author of that statement must have been misinformed. Section II Article 5 of the Law on State Symbols and Statehood Day specifies that the flag must have a golden border. I've taken out that sentence. 21:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

'

[edit] The lion

The part about the lion passant on montenegrin coat of arms/flag being of venetian origin is false. Venetian lion of St Mark's can be easily identified, as it has wings. Montenegrin lion has a completely separate history and symbolism, as it is explained here: [[1]] . Some coastal parts of Montenegro were indeed a part of La Serenissima, not only nor chiefly Perast, but this never afected the flag nor the coat of arms of Montenegro proper.

[edit] Point

As seen here, the Red-Blue-White flag was banned trice (in 1917 and in 1941) because it was classified as the Serbian national flag, and it was said that the old (present) flag has to be used. --HolyRomanEmperor 11:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

As I've explained elsewhere, njegos.org is widely regarded as disreputable site. However, info on the page you mention has been obviously misinterpreted: some considered there was a heraldic/vexilological conflict between the standard of Montenegro and that of Serbia. These concerns were unfounded, as any symbol added to a flag, however similar to the flag of another nation, makes it unique by the standards of vexilology. For examples on this, please see the similarity between The flag of Mexico and The flag of Italy. It was therefore, NOT a Serbian national flag, but Montenegrin. However, this similarity was misused by Serbian nationalist in order to prove the false claim of Montenegrins being not just akin, but a part of the wider Serbian nation.

Montenegrin flag also had a different ratio to that of Serbia, which is important in vexilology. National symbols, their differences and meanings are much more subtle and complex than most people presume. --HercegOX 14:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slavic - Serbian?

How can it be a symbol of Slavic Unity - when only Serbs had that flag??? --HolyRomanEmperor 11:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Simple. Tricolour flag of any combinations of colours red, blue and white has been considered a symbol of Slavic unity in general and widely used by states and the Panslavic movement. As for the combination of horizontal red blue and white stripes, not only Serbs, but Montenegrins also used that combination. If this is confusing and tempts you into believing this means these flags were identical, note the similarity between Flag of Slovenia and Flag of Russia - different ratio and tone of colour as well, strikingly similar to the pair Montenegro-Serbia. Although they have the exact same combination, this doesn't mean Slovenians are the same as Russians, nor that they use the same national symbol, as the slovenian flag has a distinctive feature, which is considered by science to be enough to make it distinct. The same as the difference between Montenegrin tricolour (which always had the Coat of Arms of Montenegro on it) and Serbian, which was used both with and without the coat of arms even today.

Please note that red, blue and white tricolour flag is not exclusive to Slavs. It is used by France, the Netherlands etc. The french tricolour flag replaced the royalist white during the French revolution, as those were initially the coulours of the city of Paris. --HercegOX 14:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Royal standard

The Montenegro page claims that the current flag was previously the royal standard in the Kingdom of Montenegro. Anyone care to verify this?

It wasn't. --PaxEquilibrium 06:51, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was royal standard during age of Peter I (19th century), Peter II, prince Danilo and princedom of Montenegro 1852-1910

Lords of Montenegro have changed on flag their initials eg. during prince Danilo, initials were ДI (Данило 1st), during prince Nicholas were НI (Никола 1st)

I think it wasn't. AFAIK, the royal standard was red-blue-white with the coat of arms, and red flag with the coat of arms was military flag. Nikola 03:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
First of all, "royal" refers to the period after the Princedom of Montenegro, and that is after 1910. It wasn't the royal standard. You're referring to the military flags, not national or state. --PaxEquilibrium 21:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Military flag was green with golden eagle. I'll upload it soon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stefke (talk • contribs) 09:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was. The current flag is a modern style of the old flag, all basic vexillological components are there. It is completely correct in that respect. And true, similarities between some version of previous montenegrin flag that included the tricolour with serbian flag are no greater than similarities between russian and slovenian, or italian and mexican flags. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.240.3.128 (talk) 12:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Never heard that Montenegro military had green flag. Similarities of Montenegrin and Serbian tricolour are much greater, because both had same colors in same shape and order, and same two-headed eagle, based on Nemanjic coat of arms. Nikola 18:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

No military flag was ever green, and when it comes to Montenegro I can confirm this with certainty. The one Stefke is putting (i.e. similar to the current flag) was the military flag. --PaxEquilibrium 21:02, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Stefke, the link you gave requires a registration. I am trying to maintain good faith, but do you seriously expect us to believe that you payed 70 dollars to get it? --PaxEquilibrium 21:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Montenegrina.net is free digital library, unless you want to buy that domain. I'm sure that domain worths more than 70$, if you thought about that. Stefke 22:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

If you thought about Britannica, YOU were the first who mentioned it. My answer on your question is> YES, I can afford visiting sites such Britannica is, have access to most digital databases like EBSCO, visit press agencies websites, use Google Earth PRO. I can all do it on computers of my college! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stefke (talk • contribs) 00:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Also, I uploaded the flag of Principality and please dont use it in any other purpose except in article about the princedom!

Do you think I'm going to believe your theory that King Nicholas’s flag was used by Nazis, Montenegrin '93 flag was used during age of princedom and the current flag is in fact coat of arms of your favorite political party, DPS. I personally suggest you to edit page Timeline 191. It's about alternative history feel free to express yourself there.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Stefke (talk • contribs) 22:12, 24 September 2007

No, that is not the flag of the Princedom.
That is not my theory. That is how it was. Since the tricolor was subsequently banned, they just simply took the old war stag of Nicholas, which was in abundance. The '93 Montenegrin flag wasn't used during the age of Princedom and the current Montenegrin flag isn't the coat of arms of DPS. Please read WP:CIVIL. --PaxEquilibrium 11:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] usage of flag

I think we should put some citations from the law.

e.g. see flag of serbia articleStefke 02:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Will try. --PaxEquilibrium 09:38, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Hm, not sure what you mean though. --PaxEquilibrium 09:52, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Hey, I am thinking about restoring the historical flags section. Check out Flag of Spain. This seems to be common practice in Wikipedia.

By the way, the Republic of Serbia in 2004 too illegally changed the three symbols (national anthem, coat of arms and flag), if you didn't know. ;) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 17:30, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Change

You practically scrapped the entire historical contents. Do you know how long it took me to write that in the first place? ;)

Also, could you define the standards for putting the flag into the article? You told me just official state should be there, so for I know I just returned the two. --PaxEquilibrium 20:05, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

don't worry, it can be used in list of flags. in fact, some parts must be used in article list of flags of montenegro.

well in gallery was only the name, not entire history about the flag.

that article was nice but one thing : Montenegrin tricolor was delivered from national cotume, while Serbian tricolor was introduced during rule of house of Obrenovic, when they were supported by French Stefke 02:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Why do you think that? Jovan Markus writes that some people in the 2000s have attempted to misinterpret the Constitution's act in attempts to justify replacement of the tricolor... --PaxEquilibrium 11:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

explain this line "It was criticized for being non-vexicologic, originating only partially from the old military flags of Montenegro." by who was criticized?

Well apart from most of the pro-Serbs, it was criticized by numerous vexicologists and experts in the field. E.g. most notably Jovan Markus, the former mayor of Cetinje. --PaxEquilibrium
That's POV, which is not neutral!Stefke 20:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
why is that opinion crucial to be in 3rd line of one WP article? It sounds like anti-government propaganda. Even sentence The ruling coalition adopted it as a symbol of its campaign for an independent Montenegro, which was then a part of a state union with Serbia, having a tricolor similar to the Serbian for its flag. confirmes that. AFAIK DPS, that you criticize all the time proposed just re sizing flag to 1:2 in stead of 1:3 and putting silver coat of arms with golden crown!Stefke 02:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, then it should be moved from intro into the article itself. If it proposed that really, this flag wouldn't've been adopted. :) --PaxEquilibrium 21:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV by PaxEquilibrium

1. Montenegrin language

2. Claiming that flag was proposed by one party only. Laws in the Republic of Montenegro (at that time) could be proposed by the government, by one MP and by 6000 voters. Such laws are usualy proposed by the government as was the case here also.

3. The article 6 of the Constitution of the Republic of Montenegro (1992) clearly state Crna Gora ima grb, zastavu i himnu. Translation in English is: Montenegro has the Coat of arms, the Flag and the Anthem. In that article there was not proscribed to pass the Law with simple majority, no 2/3 majority were necessary.

4. I think that you have mixed the Republic of Montenegro with the Republic of Serbia. In the Republic of Serbia there is established (in article 5, paragraph 2) that Grb, zastava i himna Republike Srbije utvrđuju se po postupku predviđenom za promenu Ustava.. Translation to English is: The Coat of arms, the Flag and the Anthem of the Republic of Serbia is established by the proceedings meant for the amending the Constitution.

5. The Flag of the Republic of Montenegro (now simply called Montenegro) was officialy adopted 2004-07-13 and you dropped officialy because ...?

Imbris (talk) 00:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

1. Sorry. Missed that. Propose "Serbian/Montenegrin".
2. Ahem...really, you should know this. The Flag is the proposal and the design of the Socialdemocratic Party of Montenegro, and so is the Coat of Arms and the proposal for a National Anthem.
3. I am going to temporarily for know leave this out, before I research more - I might be wrong.
4. You may be right. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:13, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
1. No can do. Montenegrin Nation has decided through their lawful representatives how their language is to be known
2. Yes realy. Laws of any state are proposed by the Government and Expert Groups, nevertheless of simple fact that the majority in Parliament votes and that some representatives defend the proposal. There is more to it than watching parliamentary sessions on TV.
Imbris (talk) 22:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
First of all, please stop. That which you're doing is edit warring, when we're finally getting somewhere. If you have a solution, implement it - do not add
1. Err, I'm afraid that was the compromise over at Talk:Montenegro. And a neutral one if I may. Leaving just "Montenegrin" is highly POV. The Wikipedia should not be influenced by political acts directly - a tiny minority of the Montenegrin Nation speak Montenegrin, a language which isn't standardized at all and, most importantly, has got no codification.
2. ...your point being?
5. Please stop adding the Regal Standard of King Nicholas. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
1. It is highly discutable that such compromise demands usage on every article, it does not, on identity issues like the flag, you should refrain yourself from writing Serbian language on Montenegrin identity symbols.
Also 1. this discussion that you led doesn't prove a thing because you are the one who just a few minutes ago wrote Serbian and Serbian Cyrilic everywhere - that showed you for who you are. -- Imbris (talk) 23:11, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
1. Like I said before I shall say again - I am not interested in this squabbles, but historical fact. To me myself as a person, the default language of Montenegrin-related topics is Serbian, simply because Montenegrin indeed truly doesn't exist outside a political declaration, controversial itself. The insertion of "Montenegrin" as such presents some sort of a politically-motivated POV exclusively by the current Montenegrin regime and its backers. And I used a simple revert.
You failed to answer on 2. and 5. and yet again inserted the highly inappropriate Regal Banner of King Nicholas I. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:09, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] POV by Imbris

And now my turn. :)
1. Why move Latin to the first place rather than Cyrillic?
2. You removed the oldest official flag of the State of Montenegro in favor of the Monarch's personal standard, also with wrong years. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

This is the official order of things in Montenegro, Laws are published in Latin in the Parliament. This was not the oldest official flag of the Principality - good compromise would be red crown with Nikola First acronyms below also in red. What do you think about that. -- Imbris (talk) 22:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

And yet Cyrillic is put the first as official, and then Latin. Montenegro is grasped by the same movement as Serbia and the slow return of Cyrillic. DPS is slowly returning it itself, as Marovic has stated "..to the original Montenegrin script..".
Yes it was. It was officially in the Black Kuk sanctified as the "Flag of All Montenegrin" on 5th July 1876, to be worn for formal liberation of Ottoman rule, achieved in 1878. Are you even aware that that which you're proposing is the Royal standard of King Nicholas? The Kingdom of Montenegro was created in 1910. ;) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok Cyrillic first, but that Old flag of Montenegro that you are so excited to use is not a historic fact, the usuall national/civil flag was with the red crown. -- Imbris (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

No Montenegrin state flag was truly official before 1905. But due to the consequences of Montenegro becoming recognized as an independent country from the Ottoman Empire already in 1878, we have to use the semi-official map, sanctioned on Crni Kuk (Црни Кук) on 5th July 1876 as a mark of assertion of Montenegrin independence & sovereignty. All the military flags were 'sanctified' (kissed by the Monarch and Dukes), Serb tricolors were waved around it and in the center was the Flag of Montenegro - the tricolor with Nicholas' Coat of Arms on it (the very first original very of the map was first a blank tricolor, than the Coat-of-arms implanted manually in it, as a mark of the Monarch's implanting into the Pan-Serb movement).
Please stop with this historic rejectionism, I beseech you. Like I have stated (and proven) already before (over at your talk page), the flag you are referring to was the naval flag of Montenegro (and the state which you thought was the one you were talking about was actually King Nicholas' Royal Standard). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the latest edit of yours:

1. Serbian, not Serbo-Croatian. It's problematic as a language separate from Serbian is the questionable thing.
2. It (the flag) was not yet sanctioned - it was imprinted into the Constitution. Now the only way to change it is through the difficult way of changing the constitution itself.
3. The Gallery is for state flags (separate from the historical section). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 22:20, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why not Serbo-Croatian

It is a great thing to explain to users of the World that all those languages came from one family, one house. -- Imbris (talk) 22:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

However, there're the Serbo-Croatian, Serbian language, Croatian language, Bosnian language, Montenegrin language, Bunyev language, Zlatibor language and Ours language articles to describe that. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Least POV is Serbo-Croatian or Serbian (ijekavian) -- Imbris (talk) 01:21, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Why? --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flag is sanctioned stop your POV

Everything has been explained. You promised to search it up. Stop your POV that SDP is only responsible. Stop your POV that the Law has not officialy aproved the symbols. Stop your POV that symbols were imprinted into the Constitution - they were constitutionaly sanctioned as the National symbols and heritage to the future generations of Montenegrins. -- Imbris (talk) 22:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

1. SDP and its Legal Council that made these symbols isn't primarily responsible - there's also the DPS, which had a lot more seats in the parliament than SDP.
2. Sorry, what POV? Where am I claiming that the law hasn't officially approved the symbols?
3. No, no, no; now they are imprinted. The only way to now change the Flag (and other national symbols) is to change the Constitution. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:36, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
False, false and yet again false. Even [2] claims that the proposal came from the Government. Stop being so negative about the Government of Montenegro.
You constantly delete officially from the officially aproved.
They are not imprinted as you (weasle words). The symbols of a respected country such as Montenegro would not be changed, and stop this, it is obvious Jovan B. Markuš and his People's Party of MNE. There should be an article that describe your most esteemed author and some most illustrative sentences of his. Constitutionally sanctioned is the NPOV terminology from every point of view. -- Imbris (talk) 01:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Proposal from the government (DPS-SDP), but design by SDP CG.
Corrected.
I don't see any problem with the word 'imprinted' (one imprints something into the Constitution to emphasize its importance), but since it's a personal problem to you, changed. I do not understand your insinuations regarding Markus. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who is destroying the gallery

Saddly my friend that is you. If that gallery should have state flags then the flag of old montenegro has nothing to do with that. That flag is a historical construct made today from the court flags. -- Imbris (talk) 22:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

That flag was adopted in 1876 as the very first state Flag of Montenegro. The Court flags derived from it only later. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Sources from that time would be helpful. Not books from this or for that matter last century where authors do not use cittations and quotations. Like that page you newly put out. -- Imbris (talk) 01:28, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Image:Srpskacrnogorskazastava.jpg
372 page of Soloviev's book
Right. I must be 'on eye' for every single thing I do, while you can even freely without any single source whatsoever change Montenegrin flags manually (Danil's war flag)? I see that this is because me, and not because there's problem in the sources. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:01, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Let me also use this moment to remind you to explain yourself regarding this. --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 21:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Stop inserting your fantazies about Crnojevic flag

This is not permissable by Wikipedia standards and is labeled as OR. -- Imbris (talk) 20:03, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

What fantasies? I can't believe that you accuse be for original research, after you yourself invent new flags. :) --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 12:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
A person who claims without proof that no Montenegrin flag with a golden/yellow eagle ever existed preaching about OR is not welcome. If that person should realise that this policy is void and not helpful then we can discuss everything. Like I dropped the language question until such time when we would have a Montenegrin discutant who is not biased with either Serb heritage of Montenegro, and also not biased with Montenegrin independist heritage of Montenegro. Who speaks Montenegrin language and acts on facts alone and not biased works of some Belgrade professors. -- Imbris (talk) 23:30, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
But think actually how outrageous would that seem to every sane Montenegrin who knows at least a bit about his nation. I claim the flag of Montenegro you are inventing, with a yellow bicephalic eagle, had never existed. Please read WP:NOR. You're obviously excessively frustrated right now, but I'm just trying to teach you that you cannot plainly make up things like that and try to push them to Wikipedia, whatever your true reasons may be (unlike you, I'm not interested in that. I just want to create a valid and credible article). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 13:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
It is sad that you think so highly of yourself, deliberately omitting the POV you are pushing. You are not constructive. You have not even acknowledged the fact that when Montenegrins started to use red-blue-white flag it automatically became their flag also. You push for the Serb_flag.png - why? Why do you still claim any inventioning on my part when you are the one who wants on the basis of some todays perspectives to claim that Crnojevic flag. I am not frustrated at all nor will regard your statements as anything else but a provocation. You are not teaching, you are pushing your POV that a greatest majority of Montenegrins elected the Parliament which brought the Law on the symbols. Nothing can change that fact however you try to write statements like "one political party designed ..." or "constitutionally sanctioned which means that only the constitution amendment can change it". Those are content which do not go into an article about the Flag of Montenegro, but in the Legal system of Montenegro and Politics of Montenegro. You are trying to slander this up to 17. 2. 2008. youngest nation in Europe by putting information which NO flag article has in itself. Stop. Somethings can be negotionated but what I wrote above - not. -- Imbris (talk) 22:20, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
1. Yes, since 1876. I don't see any problem with that? From the text to the up, I understand neither do you?
2. I'm not the one who is pushing anything in - it's you who is pushing it out. It was already there.
3. Because it is obvious this is an invention on your behalf. A red crown?
4. I don't care about politics nor modern acts. I look about historical flags of countries. Today's decisions take no influence upon me.
5. What do you mean by "youngest nation in Europe" and "putting information which NO flag article has in itself"? All I am seeing here is that you are removing large chunks of the article (e.g. the exact date of the flag's adoption or the traditionally-used flag), adding entirely irrelevant parts (that commented out comment) and adding totally false flags and creations of your Original Research (the naval ensign). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latin vs. Cyrillic

BTW, I've just checked. Yet another false claim.

They are published in Cyrillic, and not Latin (refer to the Службени гласник Црне Горе). --PaxEquilibrium (talk) 18:20, 24 May 2008 (UTC)