Talk:Flag of Germany

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Contents

[edit] Flag templates

These are used to maintain information about flags.

Main article: Wikipedia:WikiProject Flag Template
Template call Result
{{flag|DEU}} Flag of Germany DEU
{{flag|Germany}} Flag of Germany Germany
{{flag|West Germany}} Flag of West Germany West Germany
{{flag|East Germany}} Flag of the German Democratic Republic East Germany
{{flag|Nazi Germany}} Flag of Nazi Germany Nazi Germany
{{flag|Weimar Republic}} Flag of Weimar Republic Weimar Republic
{{flag|German Empire}} Flag of German Empire German Empire

[edit] Country data



[edit] German Empire flag

According to Gordon A. Craig's Germany 1866-1945, page 58, "Germany had no national flag until 1892." Should not, therefore the caption for the German Empire flag read 1892-1918, rather than 1871-1918. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 142.231.72.246 (talk) 17:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Civil Ensign

hmmm i believe the flag of teh third reich (the swatztika one) may be wrong. As theres one in my flag book with it in the centre that eagel thing on it the stwasttika is on the side. Altough it is the State Flag maybe this one is the civil flag i dont know. - fonzy

[edit] Layout suggestion

This article needs to be edited to change the layout. The first paragraph is very hard to read; it is too compressed. Perhaps, putting the text below the image would solve this problem.

  • I believe this is a reference to text being squeezed between images on both sides. Probably due to an editor using a wide screen and not realizing what happens on common smaller screens. I shuffled the images. (SEWilco 03:47, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Corrections, more detail

I added some additional details to this article, as well as some of the corrections I felt were necessary. One or two changes are fairly noticeable, so I think I should explain:

1) a diplomatic envoy flag is not an official national flag; the black-white-red was abolished during the weimar republic as far as I know. I am not certain why international representatives would don a flag that is discontinued, but I have heard that statistic before. Anyway, I removed the less-than official flag.

2) the german confederation, while in operation well into the 1860's, did not carry the black-red-gold flag so closely associated with the 1848 experiment. Its adaptation as such was only temporary. The monarchies wouldn't want to touch that thing with a ten-foot poll because it reeked of radicalism and has always referenced something disfavorable to the royalist cause. 3) the "red of the bird's tongue" theory behind the black-red-gold color scheme is absurd. I am certain it is a reference to the black and gold monarchy, with the red obviously representing the Hanseatic trading league of the past, so closely associated with the growth of Germany.--68.81.242.37 13:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Could somebody upload that to commons?

Haven't got the faintest idea how it works.

Thats what is needed: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:FlaggeHRRHochmittelalter_upload.JPG (It's the mediaveal Flag of the Holy Roman Empire which was not associated with the Kaiser (Imperator) but with the Nation; flag was in use aproximately from 1200 up to 1350, a good source to proof its correct would be: http://www.flaggenlexikon.de/fdtlhi1r.htm )

Thank you in advance. Foreigner 12:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

addendum: please have a look at the flag at the right side of the pictur:

The Battle of Laupen (1339) between Swiss forces and an army of the Dukes of Savoy Even so the picture was painted by (Diebold Schilling the Elder, in 1480s it still shows the old german red flag with a white cross upon it.
The Battle of Laupen (1339) between Swiss forces and an army of the Dukes of Savoy Even so the picture was painted by (Diebold Schilling the Elder, in 1480s it still shows the old german red flag with a white cross upon it.

It proofs, that the Swiss used the mediaeval flag of the nation a g a i n s t everybody who attacked the freedom be it the duke of savoy or the habsburgian emperor, (who of course used the imperial eagle). Switzerland uses still today the old national flag of mediaeval germany. Foreigner 13:17, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Good work. As you can see, that has already been done. The site seems credible and the claims are believable. However, I would caution against entitling this the "national" flag as I am almost certain that it was not universally adapted. The picture to the right also seems to illustrate this point.--Hohns3 04:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. // Well, it's a rather difficult question to what extent it was adapted. There's detailed work to bee done by the historians. Foreigner 10:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
second addendom: It seems that the Swiss captured "the" flag from the Duke of Burgund (House of Savoy) who used/misused "the" flag. Later both, the Swiss and the House of Savoy used "the" flag. In the picture the Swiss infantry is on the right side of the picture. Please compare and veryfy reading the lemma Battle of Laupen. Foreigner 08:21, 31 May 2006 (UTC)
It seems clear that a cross was somewhat universally adapted by German ancients, to nobody's surprise. However, I'm not completely sold on the Swiss/Burgundy/Frank combination being a nationlike expression of German-ness..."Flag of Regional Medieval Germans" or "Flag of Regional Frankish and Swiss Germans" might work. It would be nice if you could find a second source to back up the claims found on lexicon and provide a second opinion on how it should be titled. --Hohns3 03:07, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disagree with removement of the flag

It's documented that a German wikipedian created the flag. Please read the discussion of the picture. 217.64.171.188 07:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] swastika flag 'Now forbidden by the democrats as "hate crime" '

This sentence is a bit strange. First of all its not called a hate crime (or Hassverbrechen) in Germany but rather "symbol against the constitution" (verfassungsfeindliches Symbol). The second thing is: Who are "the democrats"? The flag was forbidden first by the occupying powers (Britain, USA, etc.) and later by the German government.217.85.110.56 20:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It was meant to be similar to the caption of the Third Reich flag (tit-for-tat). ( 'Then'→'Now' etc.) I admit that "hate crime" was only a descriptive term; The point was that it is illegal for its 'hateful' connotations. I'll change that. How about "Currently illegal in Germany"?. By the way, is it mere possession, purchase or public display that is illegal? Hm. Anyway, thanks for telling! --CAD6DEE2E8DAD95A (hello!) 21:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
In case you want to know: Technically, there is no such thing as a "hate crime" in Germany, in terms of legislation, at least not with the connotations the term has in the USA. — Mütze 12:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Purchase and public display are illegal in Germany. But there are exceptions: If you add a (critical) comment (e.g. in school books) public display is allowed.— Hossi 20:12, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disposing of german flag

What is the proper way o dispose of the german flag? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cuhl33 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 6 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Flag from 1871-1892?

The currently suggests that the red-white-black tricolor was used by the German Empire only after 1892. What was the Empire's flag from 1871-1892? Funnyhat 06:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that this is quite simply wrong, as the imperial constitution of 16 April 1871, article 55, states: Die Flagge der Kriegs- und Handelsmarine ist schwarz-weiß-roth. – in English: The flag of the navy and the merchant marine is black-white-red. --SKopp 22:38, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I just added the flag that you are talking about. I found it on the Nordic Cross Flag page. --Volker89 12:40, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I've had a lot of run-ins with Original Research which I learned is forbidden on wikipedia and the belief that this flag was the German flag from 1871-1892 is original research. Almost all sources which show the Imperial black-white-red tricolour say it was used from 1871-1918, this is the first time I have ever seen this flag, even though I'm an avid one for flag history. Plus, if, as SKopp pointed out, the German constitution of 1871 said that the tricolour was the flag along with the fact that most sources say that the flag is the black-white-red tricolour, wikipedia cannot have this "1871-1892" flag on the German flag site, because as said earlier, it is original research. Also I think questions should be raised at the Nordic Cross Flag page with those who posted that flag to find out where they got their information, because their original research is rippling across wikipedia's flags pages. --R-41 20:25, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
I haven't seen that flag before either. But I know now where that 1892 thing comes from. The black-white-red tricolor was declared to be the national flag by the Verordnung über die Führung der Reichsflagge of 8 November 1892; while the text of this decree is apparently not available online, it is mentioned here for example (the information there is otherwise inaccurate at the time I write this, though, for reasons I will explain presently). This may have been the first time that there was a decree clearly saying, our national flag looks like this. But before that there was the constitution, clearly specifying the colors. So black-white-red was indeed the official flag of the Reich from 1871 on.
One might now say that this mysterious "cross" flag is also black-white-red, if not a tricolor, and the constitution doesn't declare how the colors should be arranged. But the constitution of 1871 was closely modelled on the constitution of the North German Federation of 1867, and as it happens this article 55 is word-for-word identical to article 55 of the constitution of the North German Federation. But that constitution was followed up by a decree specifying the shape on 25 October 1867, which reads:
Die Bundesflagge [...] bildet ein längliches Rechteck, bestehend aus drei gleich breiten horizontalen Streifen, von welchen der obere schwarz, der mittlere weiß und der untere rot ist. Das Verhältniß der Höhe der Flagge zur Länge ist zwei zu drei.
In English:
The federal flag forms an oblong rectangle, consisting of three equally broad horizontal stripes, of which the upper is black, the medial white, and the lower red. The ratio between the height of the flag and the length is two to three.
It seems obvious to me that the 1871 Reich would have adopted this flag as well. Why would it abandon the flag only to reintroduce it in 1892? And if that was so, frankly, I have the feeling I would know it. --SKopp 03:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree with SKopp, it seems very reasonable that the flags and symbols of the North German Confederation were simply re-adopted as those of the German Empire, after all, let's keep in mind that the black-white-red tricolour was only four years old when the German Empire was formed, it seems highly unlikely that they would choose a radically different flag all of a sudden, especially in the very conservative nation that Germany was in 1871. More likely, this cross flag was either a proposed flag for Germany, or an unofficial flag used by German citizens.--R-41 19:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shade of red for Third Reich flag

I've noticed that the shade of red for the German imperial flag and weimar/present flag is darker than the red commonly used for the Nazi flag. Considering that the Nazis used the German Imperial flag for a few years, would their red naturally correspond with the German imperial flag, or was the Nazi flag officially a bright red along with a bright-red version of the imperial tricolour?--R-41 14:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

The separate article Flag of Nazi Germany contains a lot of content that already appears in this article. There are no separate articles for other German historical flags. Therefore, to reduce repetition, and to make management easier, I suggest that the two articles be combined.

As part of this merge, this article should then be reorganised a bit. For example, the large "Origins" section could be broken down into the different historical stages to match the column of flag images. Once broken up like this, it would then be possible to expand upon the different periods (e.g. as done in the German wiki article Flagge Deutschlands). - 52 Pickup 18:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree, a separate article for the flag of Nazi Germany is unnecessary when it could be described in the Flag of Germany page. User:R-41
Alright. I'm currently working on a major reconstruction and expansion of this article. There's a few things to go through, but incorporating the Nazi flag article will then be part of this work. - 52 Pickup 11:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 2nd merge proposal

Recently, another merge request was placed on the page, suggesting that National colours of Germany be merged with the History section. Since the proposer didn't mention it here on the talk page, I thought I would. The national colours article contains a lot of information already on this page, and is very small when compared with the corresponding de-wiki articles (de:Schwarz-Rot-Gold and de:Schwarz-Weiß-Rot). As part of my current work on this article, I've already been using content from these articles for ideas, so I have no problem with the merge. Not many countries have a national colours article anyway. - 52 Pickup 19:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose I think this should be an article of its own, since the colors are used not only in flags and the current German flag does not display the black-white-red of the former flag, a color combination still used by some German sports teams. However, the articles should be clearly crosslinked. John Anderson 11:19, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Waldeck

The flag of Waldeck_(state) looks the same -- any connection? 129.31.71.161 20:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a tough one, I'm finding contradictory explanations. The de-wiki claims that the colours were used by Waldeck from at least 1815, citing Waldeck's anthem (5th verse) - but the text given is from 1890 and only the melody is from 1815, and from what I've seen so far, the previous text makes no mention of the colours (although I might not have found the full text yet). Meanwhile FOTW says that black-red-yellow was used by Waldeck's militia as of 1814. FOTW also says that yellow on black were Waldeck's colours in 1692 and suggests that black-red-yellow was used from even as far back as 1775.
The black-red-gold flag was definitely in use after 1848, apparently because Waldeck was one of the states that signed onto the failed 1848 constitution, which gave the tricolour as its national colours (this still needs verification). So the colours pre-1848 are still a bit unclear. - 52 Pickup 07:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Weimar flag

The article insinuates that the current flag is the same as the flag of the Weimar republic, having simply been re-adopted after it had temporarily been retired by the Nazis. E.g.:

The current flag, first used in the 1848 revolution, was adopted in its present form on 11 August 1919 in the constitution of the Weimar Republic.

Or:

11 August 1919 (2:3) Re-adopted 23 May 1949

Is that really correct? The 1848 flag seems to be identical to the 1919 flag, so what about "its present form"? Even worse, the Weimar flag actually does not represent the present form, because it has a different aspect ratio. I think the sentence is misleading – the current form was adopted on 23 May 1949. --SKopp 22:39, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

By "its present form", this refers just to the black-red-gold tricolour and not the aspect ratio. Perhaps this should be reworded to reflect this. More about the aspect ratio: the 19th-century flag had no defined aspect ratio, while the ratio for the modern flag was set on 7 July 1950, just over a year after the flag was (re)introduced. - 52 Pickup 18:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
All right, I changed the article to clarify that 1919 wasn't the first use of the current flag, in the sense that if you speak loosely (and ignore the aspect ratio) it was used much earlier, but not by the nation-state that was founded in 1871; whereas if you speak strictly, the 1919 flag was simply not the same as the 1949 one. --SKopp 00:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quick-failed GA nomination

Per the quick-fail criteria, any article that contains cleanup or expansion banners (such as the multiple merge banners now present) must be failed immediately and does not require an in-depth review. Please resolve any issues brought up by such banners and remove them before choosing to renominate the article. If you feel this review was in error, you may request a reassessment. Thank you for your work so far, VanTucky 04:41, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge issues now resolved - 2 merged (Flag of Nazi Germany, Flag of the GDR), 1 not merged (National colours of Germany) - so now renominating. - 52 Pickup (deal) 05:14, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Second GA nonination

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    All important facts should show citations. For example, if a statement of a person as the one of Albert Speer is shown, there should be a reference
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    There are not two, but 3 states, which use the schwarz rot gold flag. (Saarland)
    The legal bases of the flag are not shown. Black red gold are mentioned in the Grundgesetz (Art 22 GG), but there is no statement about size and badges.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
    only minor problems, which should be corrected in time--Thw1309 (talk) 15:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the review. In response:
  • 2a - I thought that since the text read Albert Speer, in his book "Inside the Third Reich", stated that "...", an explicit citation was duplicative. Never mind. This has now been changed.
  • 3a - The omission of Saarland was a silly mistake on my part, since Saarland wasn't a state at the time of the formation of the FRG I forgot to include it later on. This is now fixed.
  • 3a (2) - No, the Grundgesetz does not mention size and badges. These specifications were made later as stated:
    • Start of "Design" section: Following specifications set by the (West) German government in 1950, the flag displays three bars of equal width and has a width-length ratio of 3:5 (ref #4)
    • In "Vertical flags" section: The proportions of these vertical flags were not specified until 1996, when a ratio of 5:2 was established. (ref #3) The 1996 reform also specified the layout for the vertical version of the state flag: the Bundesschild is displayed in the centre of the flag, overlapping with up to one fifth of the black and yellow bands.
52 Pickup (deal) 20:39, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The Speer quote is only an example, although I think, that all quotes should have their references. Another example. The whole part about the Urburschenschaft only has one quote. But I can live with this, we are talking about good article, not about featured article.
I have corrected the flag of the Urburschenschaft and added the constitutional text.

Now I think, this meets the quality of a good article. Congratulations--Thw1309 (talk) 20:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gunpowder, blood and glory ?!?

I heard a story that the German colours “black, red and gold” stand for “gunpowder, blood and glory”. This sounds a bit ridiculous, but it was explained to me that the German flag was based on the uniforms of the Lützow_Free_Corps . Their uniforms where allegedly black, with red collars and had golden oak-leave decorations. Therefore the martial meaning of the uniforms was transferred onto the flag. Can anyone shed some light on this matter? Is this complete non-sense, has a seed of truth in it or is it actually accurate? Just wondering!

HagenUK (talk) 09:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

See the Napoleonic War and German Confederation parts of the History section for the role of the Free Corps in the history of the colours. As for the “gunpowder, blood and glory” part, there were a number of contemporary interpretations, a similar one is given in the article. - 52 Pickup (deal) 09:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FAC notes

Following the recent successful promotion of this article to FA, here is a summary of some of the points for consideration for further work:

  • A new section on the various symbols used on the flag through history: must be careful not to simply incorporate Coat of arms of Germany, which should remain a separate article.
  • Separate section of flag protocol: while some relevant information is already present in various sections, other flag FAs have such a section. While there is no standard format for flag articles, it's worth keeping in mind.
  • Manufacturing: is there any specific information here? I couldn't find any so far.
  • Copy-editing: although the article has passed FAC, a final polish by someone else would be nice.
  • Splitting the article? Opinion was divided on whether or not the History section should be in its own article. Personally, I'd prefer to have everything together.

There are a few other points that were raised by the nomination. See FAC (note that the nomination was restarted) for more information. - 52 Pickup (deal) 06:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flag days: former Day of German Unity 17th June

In the Flag Days Box, the "n/a" against June 17th should be replaced with "former Day of German Unity 1953-1990". I left Germany for good in 1975, and 33 years later I still feel strongly that the Day of German Unity should not have been moved to October. The 17th of June was East Germany's Tiananmen Square and should not be forgotten or sidelined. Thanks, Renata (talk) 05:18, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anti-Nazi profanity

When I look at the article, at the end of the lead section I see the following text:

FAGGGGOOOOOOTTT NAZIIIIII NAZIIII

But when I went to edit it I couldn't see it anymore. I checked again and saw it again. Then I looked at the history and saw that this line had been removed from some vandalism earlier. How come I can still see it, after the vandalism was reverted? Jake the Editor Man (talk) 20:29, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Bypass your cache. -- zzuuzz (talk) 20:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Color"

The word "color" is not spelled with a fucking "u". It is not spelled "colour", only britfags and retards spell it that way. Britfags are the only people on Earth incapable of spelling correctly in their own language. Fix this fucking problem. 66.77.224.226 (talk) 19:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Not entirely sure I should justify this with a response, but the use of Commonwealth English is perfectly acceptable so long as consistency is maintained. See WP:ENGVAR Adacore (talk) 03:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong King

In the section "Prussian-dominated Germany" it states that "King Frederick William IV of Prussia was satisfied with the colour choice" of the North German Cofederation flag, but Frederick William had died in 1861, 5 years before the Confederation was founded and acquired a flag. I assume that William I of Prussia is actually meant here. Cplakidas (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] placement of imgs

The MoS for images suggests that images be placed both right and left in more or less alternating order (but avoid sandwiching). Most of the images in this article at on the right hand side, so it might be worthwhile to change the layout of some images Jasy jatere (talk) 14:29, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd say the article could certainly stand to have some of the images shifted to the left, particularly in the portion about half way down where there are a large number of right-aligned images. It would have to be tested to see if it looks ok, of course, and since I'm useless with images I'll leave it to someone else Adacore (talk) 09:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to have all flags on the right side, while other images may also be on the left. -- Matthead  Discuß   20:30, 3 June 2008 (UTC)