Talk:Flag of Europe

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[edit] (old comments)

An event mentioned in this article is a May 26 selected anniversary.

Should we mention that the star formation is similar to a historical flag of the US?

This one: http://www.crwflags.com/art/hist/us13betsy.gif

Bogdan | Talk 20:31, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I removed the phrase 12 Stars & 12 States from the table. This is very misleading, suggesting that there's a relationship between the number of stars and the number of members (underlining and bold-facing it only strengthens that impression). But right above the table it clearly states there is no relationship - with a link to prove it. Abigail 12:56, Apr 28, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] tenuous link with the HRE

The flag does bear a striking resemblance to that of the International Paneuropean Union, an organization led by Otto von Habsburg, the current head of the legendary Habsburg family--a family which produced at least 19 Holy Roman Emperors.

This looks like a pretty tenuous link to me. You might as well say "The flag is used by the European Parliament, which for twenty years counted among its members Otto von Habsburg, the current head of the legendary Habsburg family--a family which produced at least 19 Holy Roman Emperors." Marnanel 12:50, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There is another problem with this -- I've not been able to the date when the International Paneuropean Union created its flag. Therefore I don't know which flag influenced the other. Saying just that there's "a similarity" between the flags is immature as it's an implication in favour of the conspiracy theory. That's just a factual complaint, which we may soon resolve by some further research.

Secondly we must learn to separate two different facts. One, it may be influenced or even directly derived from the International Paneuropean Union flag. Two, the conspiracy theories that lead to the connection between this organization and the Holy Roman Emperors. Since there are two separate bits of information, where the former connection may exist *without* the latter, we must mention them as two different bits of information, rather than predispose the reader infavour of the conspiracy theory by presenting them as a single item.

I'm gonna rewrite the sentence given the above problems I believe exist. Aris Katsaris 19:53, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] christianity and conspiracies/myths

Actually it is not a myth:

"The European flag of 12 yellow stars on a blue background also owes something to Catholicism. Arsene Heitz, who designed it in 1955, recently told Lourdes magazine that his inspiration had been the reference in the Book of Revelation, the New Testament's final section, to “a woman clothed with the sun...and a crown of twelve stars on her head." (The Economist, October 28, 2004) [1]

Maybe we should rewrite that section. Bogdan | Talk 20:53, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It should be Christianity, not just Catholicism. --Error 01:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Is it worth noting that there's a distinction between the meaning attributed to the flag by the designer, and any 'official' meaning? 203.221.18.161 12:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, it's the Crown of Immortality you're talking about. - Roberth Edberg 15:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Who gives a damn. Twelve stars on a blue background who cares, religion takes everything as insult or references to them. I think that for once a coincidence has occurred and it should just be accepted myths and legends are to be ignored because they are false.--Lucy-marie 12:59, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Green E

Does somebody remember a flag consisting mainly of a big green E? --Error 01:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, but you've made me think of the slightly comical jubilea simbolo which is the closest thing I know of to what you describe. — Trilobite (Talk) 04:59, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's the flag of the European movement. -- Joolz 17:54, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Upside Down Flag

The flag is symmetrical, isn't it ? Is there really an upside down version that is incorrect ? Parmaestro 05:44, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

I had the same question until I looked at a larger image of the flag. when you turn the entire flag over, the stars are all upside down. I tried to clarify the original note 'This flag is upside-down.' by adding ', or the individual stars are,'. If you now understand what I'm saying, do you have any suggestions for improving the text? -- Ec5618 09:57, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks so much. I should have looked more closely. Stars rotated incorrectly, two at the top instead of two at the bottom, perhaps ? Parmaestro 10:33, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the stars shoulds have one point sticking straight up, and two pointing downward.

'This flag is upside-down, or the individual stars are. Each star should have a single point pointing up.' -- Ec5618 10:59, May 13, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalised image

I've removed the image of the flag from this and other pages today as a vandalised version has been uploaded. Hopefully this can be restored soon but I don't have the facility to do this at the moment! Wombat 14:55, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] .

This flag is, or the individual stars are, upside-down.

The stars are rotated incorrectly. All the stars should be rotated the same i.e. with two points at the bottom and one at the top.

The stars are in the wrong positions; they should be in the "O'Clock" positions.

[edit] Page title

I have an objection to the page title, as this is not the flag of Europe (which, like most other continents, has no flag), but the flag of the European Union. The European Union does not include all the countries of Europe. Therefore, the title should be changed. Jon Harald Søby 16:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I thought that too, but then I found that the article itself says otherwise:

Although the flag is most commonly associated with the European Union (EU), it was initially used by the Council of Europe (COE), and intended to represent Europe as a whole as opposed to any particular organization such as the EU or the COE.

The flag was originally adopted by the Council of Europe on 8 December 1955, from a suggested design by the Chief Herald of Ireland. The Council of Europe from the beginning desired it to be used by other regional organizations seeking European integration. The European Community (EC) adopted it on 26 May 1986. The European Union, which was established by the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 to replace the EC and encompass its functions, also adopted the flag. Since then the use of the flag has been controlled jointly by both the Council of Europe and the European Union.

Wombat 09:26, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Interesting. Didn't see that coming, lol. Still, it may have been designed as a flag for Europe, but today it is not associated with Europe as a whole, but with the European Union; citizens in non-EU European countries like Norway (where I'm from), Switzerland and Iceland don't feel that the flag regard them.

So, would there be any objections to this page being moved to "Flag of the European Union"? Jon Harald Søby \ ^{no na} 15:21, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, I take your point: many people in countries that are European but aren't EU members don't feel the flag applies to them. But still, strictly speaking, the flag does apply to them. So I'm not sure we should rename the article just because many people would mistakenly think it should be renamed, if you see what I mean. Perhaps it's better, instead, to keep the current title but then add a paragraph making this point in the article itself? What do you think? Wombat 18:05, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose that's the best way to do it. =) Jon Harald Søby \ ^{no na} 20:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Maybe the page for Flag of the United States should be renamed American Flag? 203.221.18.161 12:48, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Designer

So are we going with Gerard Slevin, or Arsene Heitz, or a committee of the Council of Europe arguing about numbers of stars --Henrygb 23:35, 3 September 2005 (UTC)?

Slevin's input is disputed. See rec.heraldry discussion.

It can now be confirmed that the claim that Irish Chief Herald Chief Slevin designed the European Flag is untrue. Slevin played a role in the process of selecting a design, but it was a relatively late and minor one. See sourced account at http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/euroflagmemo.html Sean Murphy, 10 December 2005

Which role played Arthur Eisenmenger? His Wikipedia page (also the German version) and at least one trustable external source claim that he has designed the flag. We should go for consistency here. – Torsten Bronger 08:23, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have heard of Eisenmenger as the designer, along with the Euro currency sign.--Gloriamarie 04:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Koolhaas Proposal

The linked BBC article is highly misleading, to say the least. The Commission never asked Koolhass to design a new flag, they never considered to make this barcode label proposal the official EU flag, and they couldn't simply change the flag at whim even if they wanted. Sentences like "EU officials are currently examining the design, which if approved could soon be flying from flagpoles across the continent." are simply wrong. One should remove the link or better add a remark in the paragraph about this flag.

[edit] About the twelve stars

Sorry, I don't know if I made comment the right way, hope so. I read "a myth" tells italian representive opposed to increase the number of stars to 13 as that is an unlucky number. I think this is not a myth but a hoax, as, in Italy, 13 is a lucky number, as the unlucky one is 17. I think that must be removed, if you agree.

The Crown of Immortality has twelve stars. - Roberth Edberg 15:41, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Living between Ireland and Britain 1972-1975 there was definitely a 15 star flag in use in those countries (to also represent the 3 additional countries Ireland, UK, Denmark): whether unofficially, to placate the countries' populations in terms of recognizing them in the flag everyone assumed had 1 star per country, or not. I find no mention of this in the Wiki entry, which surprises me. Perhaps if an official Wiki editor can get corroboration of what I said, this can be included in the Wiki itself. Peter Dougal, Dublin, Ireland 20th March 2007

[edit] European flag

The change in title from European Flag to Western European Flag (as of 15th July by Nixer) I think is wrong, it is a flag to represent the whole of Europe regardless of which area it was designed in. The EU is clearly not just Western Europe, with Finland, Estonia and Cyprus being members, much of south east Europe joining (but not several Western nations) and it being used by countries and peoples with EU ambitions, such as by the Georgian President or the pro-democracy protestors in Belarus. In addition as it is the Council of Europe's flag first and currently the only European country not connected to it officialy is Belarus. And by saying it came from the west is no excuse for calling it the Western European flag, or should we call the US flag the Eastern US flag? This is the EUROPEAN flag, and limiting it to Western Europe in the title is an insulting.

--88.105.157.78

This flag does not represent the whole Europe, so the article name is incorrect. Maybe we should consider page move.--Nixer 04:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

As the article says, the flag is intended to represent Europe as a whole. And it's the flag of the Council of Europe, whose members include almost every European country, from Portugal to Russia. In any case, it's called the European flag, and it's not for Wikipedia to start making up new names. --Zundark 07:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

And why would be the Flag of the European Union incorrect? --Irpen 07:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Council of Europe is a political entity, not only geographic. Not only Belarus, but also Kazakhstan (which partially located in Europe) is not member of the Council of Europe, as well as Vatican City. Council of Europe not only requires the country to be European, but also pro-Western. From historical perspective we can see that during the Cold War the flag was used only in Western Europe. In fact, now the flag is used by two unrelated bodies: the EU and the Council of Europe. So I think moving to Flag of the European Union would be appropriate with a redirect from Flag of Council of Europe. By the way, I think calling the African Union's flag "Flag of Africa" is also incorrect.--Nixer 08:09, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It is not the job of Wikipedia to set the correct name here. It must simply report what name for the flag is actually used. Here is the official europa.eu website which calls the flag the European flag [2].

I think declaring by the 13 Western European countries comprising about 15% of European territory and about 25% of its population the flag of their union as "Flag of Europe" is a Cold War trick. How would you consider if some 10 countries now declare that the flag of their union is the "Flag of Humanity" or the "Flag of the Earth"?--Nixer 08:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Our feelings and considerations are irrelevant. Wikipedia must report facts, whether we like them or not. If you want to add a "criticism" section to the current article, backed up by references of course, which lists valid objections to the use of the "European flag" name, feel free to do so. Balcer 08:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, with the expansion coming in January 2007 about 70% of Europe's population will live in the EU, so calling the flag European flag will not be that inaccurate. Balcer 08:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

About 50% of European territory is located in Russia and Russia will never become a EU member. And did you ever seen the Flag of African Union to be called "Flag of Africa"? Note that in the African Union lives more than 90% of African population.--Nixer 08:46, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, if the African Union starts to use the name "Flag of Africa" as the official name, Wikipedia would need to have an article under that name. Anyway, if you don't like the name "European flag", please start some kind of political or protest campaign to get the European Union to change the name. But remember that Wikipedia must reflect the world as it is and not as it should be, so it is not a proper place for such a campaign. Balcer 09:05, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok. Will you support creation of Flag of Earth article if I design such flag for Humanity in my kitchen and promote it in "Metro" newspaper or something else? Of course, you should not create "criticism" section because you have not sourced objections (of course until you institute a political movement against such initiative).--Nixer 09:43, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

If your new flag really becomes notable, according to Wikipedia notability standards, I will support a Wikipedia article about it! Good luck on your project! Balcer 09:59, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, but will you support an article, which seriously says it is the Flag of Earth? I dont object the article about the flag of EU, but if it is moved to or called in the article "Proposed flag of Europe" I will be satisfied.--Nixer 10:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

"Proposed flag of Europe"? That name makes no sense to me at all. As for "Flag of Earth", I would have no objection in principle to have an article under that title. Of course, if that flag is not actually the flag of Earth but just some notable symbol someone made up, then the article would explain that. Balcer 10:18, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

It may be the flag of political institutions but it is widely seen by people in and outside of those institution to mean Europe as a whole and it's unification, and although three states are outside, one is mainly Asian, one is tiny and can barely be called a state and the other hardly makes up much of the European population. Just because the two main organisations which use the symbol have Human Rights standards doesn't mean it can't apply to them, or will cease to apply upon their objection. Would we rename the Polish flag because the Mayor of Krakow complained no one asked them about it?

In addition, the term "Europe" is increasingly taken as the European Union, in the same way "America" is said with the meaning of the United States of America. Should we stop people referring to their flag as the American flag because Brazil isn't part of the US?

We never refer in Wikipedia to Flag of the United States of America as "Flag of America" or "Frag of America as whole" or even "Flag of North America". There was a procedure of acception of Polish flag as a consequence of nation-wide elections, but the COU flag was declared as flag of the entire continent by countries comprising tiny part of it. And if not the end of Cold War and dessolution of the USSR this flag would known as "European" only in tiny number of countries. In fact it is politically charged symblol, not a geographically defined emblem.--Nixer 16:42, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

A section disputing the validity of it's name would be fine but I agree with the above, it is called the flag of Europe by the world and it should be called by that here. As for African and Earth flags, well I wouldn't be surprised if in time it is called the "African Flag" as it and their union gains more notoriety. Seams to me if you object to the term "European" in the flag you ought to object to the term "European" in the European Union.

How about the Flag of Antarctica (not to mention Flag of Mars) should those be moved to Proposed flag of ...

That article starts with "There is no official flag of Antarctica". May be we should start this article in the same manner?--Nixer 17:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand why Nixer has the idea that a flag must be adopted legally before it becomes the flag of a country. Although no law has ever been passed making the Union Flag (in any of its versions) the official flag of the United Kingdom, nobody seems to be claiming that it isn't. Nor has there been any law naming it the "Union Flag." From the argument above, I take it that Nixer would recommend that the world should now refer to it as "the proposed flag of the UK." What a mouthful! --Specul8 16:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

technically I believe the flag currently (or at least until very recently) had the same status as the flag of a private corporation. It has/had no official legal recognition and therefore should not be flown in place of the union flag or the individual flag of each nation (cross of st george etc). 130.246.132.26 16:18, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The article title is inconsistent with the naming of other flag-related pages, which all start with "Flag of". The article should be moved to "Flag of Europe". - LeonWhite 03:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Because it is not flag of Europe. Since the Council of Europe changed the flag, this flag represents only about half of Europe (by territory). "European" is its name probably.--Nixer 19:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Is there an official interpretation of the colours of the flag? Is it "blue and yellow" or "blue and gold"?

The Council of Europe define the colours as Pantone Relfex Blue and Pantone Yellow see here http://www.coe.int/T/E/Com/About_Coe/flag_guide.asp#TopOfPage. Please remember to sign your comments. --Brideshead 17:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but it's absolutely unacceptable to call this the "European Flag". Europe is a continent, not a country or organisation. The EU consistently hijack the name of the continent to refer to themselves. The European Parliament is not in fact the Parliament of Europe at all, but the Parliament of the EU. It is a con trick so that anyone who criticises the EU can then be branded as "being against membership of Europe" or "not liking Europe", putting forward the bizaare notion that anyone against the EU or EU membership somehow wants their country to be dug up and moved somewhere else in the world. To say that this is the "European Flag" is factually untrue and completely misleading; it is like having an article North American Flag or something. Are Norway and Switzerland not in Europe perhaps because they are not members of the EU? As to "oh, well, the EU call it the European Flag so it must be true" - it reminds me of Abraham Lincoln's famous riddle: "How many legs does a dog have, if you call the tail a leg?", the answer of course being four - calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it one. The EU can call this the European Flag, the World Flag, the Intergalactic Flag if they wish - it doesn't make it true, and surely at Wikipedia we deal in facts, not political posturing? ^Tom _Phil 18:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't be so sure that European Union is the same as the Continent Europe. The European Union is a Union based on Values, which does not have to be related to the Continent. In fact take a lock in my Sandbox User:Roberth_Edberg/Sandbox were I'm doing some job trying to find out what and were Europe came from. From that perspective, of course a flag can be related to the European Union. It's not the same thing as beeing a flag for the continent of Europe. --Roberth Edberg 19:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 27 member proposal

Where has this image come from? Is there a source that this is a serious proposal considered by the European Council and not just someone playing with CorelDraw? The council have made it clear that there are no plans to change the flag, the 12 stars have no relation to number of states, why would a change be needed now at the 5th enlargement? In addition the stars used are the wrong type. If this can't be properly sourced to an official European proposed change, I think it should be removed as misleading. --Brideshead 17:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I haven't been able to find any proposal for this flag, so I'm commenting it out, so the uploader has the opportunity to find a supporting basis for it. -- Arwel (talk) 20:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It was added by Wkobylinski, and when he added it the first time, he attributed it to one Wiktor Kobyliński (presumably himself). He has uploaded eight different images of it. --Zundark 08:39, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah yes, I see. It's plainly Original Research, then, so away it goes. -- Arwel (talk) 08:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

There are similairities with the Crown of Immortality. Roberth Edberg 15:39, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Number of stars on the EEC - EU flag

I don't remember a 15-star flag - anyway, between 1973 and 1981 there were only nine members in the EEC anyway. -- Arwel (talk) 19:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag is upside down, isn't it?

The flag in the "Number of stars" section is upside down despite the section below warning people about showing it the wrong way. This needs to be addressed. 207.203.80.14 00:22, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag specification not complete

The diagram for the flag specification is not quite complete - it doesn't list the colour numbers (eg Pantone ) of the blue and gold. --Ozhiker 14:53, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move

I think this article should be moved to Flag of Europe, since most flag articles begin with "Flag of". A•N•N•A hi! 20:54, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the flag will desappear

After the next summitt of Bruxells, Angela Merkel, who is chairing the EU talks, said the new treaty that will replace a draft constitution rejected by French and Dutch voters in 2005, would not include state-like symbols to avoid public fears of a European super state.

So the flag will desappear

--Alessandro.pasi 19:14, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't mean that it will disappear, but simply that it is not "official". It will continue to be used as an official flag, however. It's just not backed by a treaty. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.62.82.91 (talk) 14:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] change reference link | Regex dash fixer

The link stating that Arsène Heitz is the designer of the flag is restricted: "This article is premium content. In order to gain access to it please either Log in, Activate your complimentary web account if you are a print subscriber, or Subscribe now". I suggest an alternate page, like this (the first result in a google search for "Arsène Heitz" in english — maybe other results are more appropriate). I know it's less reliable, but at least it can be read! Waldir 19:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Title of the page

Commons: Discussion on file name here —Preceding unsigned comment added by JLogan (talk • contribs) 20:10, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

I changed it from European flag to Flag of Europe as that is the format followed by all other flags, without changing its scope. However I do still have a problem with it. For us to call it the European flag or Flag of Europe I think it does need something more official than the word and spread of the Council. Also, in places outside the EU, it seems to be used more in reference to the EU than Europe as a whole, to western aspirations and of a desire to join the EU. Even if it is seen as a symbol of Europe, I don't think it is widespread and common enough for us to use that name, it is nearly always in connection to the EU.

Of course we would then have the problem of which name;

Flag of the Council of Europe and the European Union
Flag of the European Union and the Council of Europe
Flag of the European Union
Flag of the Council of Europe

The first two are a tad long and we can argue about which comes first, importance or first adopted. So I think we could deviate from official names to what is commonly called (this under WP guidelines) and just call it the Flag of the European Union. It may have adopted it second but it is the body most associated with it. That's what most people would call it and it uses it most. Indeed the Council of Europe have a defaced version that they use, so they have their own variant different from the norm used by the EU. Seems to me like the logical way to go. Thoughts? - J Logan ^t: 10:00, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Mh, yeah. It most certainly is used to refer almost exclusively to the EU (in other contexts, it may sometimes be used to represent Europe as a whole, but that's FAR less often; make a note of it in the article, though), and the CoE has its own version of the flag which it uses. I agree with you entirely. —Nightstallion 15:03, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

The 'stylised' green-e-flag is only a logo, and the main symbol of the council is still the normal flag.

What we have to make clear, is wether this flag should be placed next to the word 'Europe' in wikipedia. If we move this page to 'Flag of the EU', you have to realise that this flag won't be used to represent the Europe-release of video games and movies in infoboxes. We'll see the U.S. flag and releasedate above, and the letters 'EUR' and the European date below. Some editors are very "aware" of the difference between 'Europe' and the 'European Union'. Practically, we'll cut all bonds between Europe as a whole and this flag if we rename this page. Wikipedia tells people what to believe. - S. Solberg J. 20:39, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

No matter what we conclude, this flag has multiple roles. I think 'Flag of Europe' is the best solution. In my opinion, to call it only the flag of the EU would be too oversimplified and de facto. And very inconvenient for the many other roles this flag in fact serves for Europe in Wikipedia.

When all of Europe is united, the flag is legally adopted and the Council of Europe history we should rename this page. - S. Solberg J. 20:57, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Not all of Europe is united and maybe never will. There's a bunch of countries neither a member of the EU nor of the Council of Europe, e.g. Belarus, Kazakhstan and the Vatican City and neither of them has even the possibilities to enter the EU sometime in the future. On the other hand, the Council of Europe has member states which are not part of Europe, depending on the dëfinitions you use, Russia, Georgia, Turkey, Aserbaidjan. --Matthiasb-DE 11:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, I'll leave it. I don't like the idea of using other editors ideas as reasoning for the title of an article but Flag of Europe works well enough right now. However I think we ought to do more to expand comments on wider use, I've tried putting in a bit more there but am lacking resources. There are two images on Commons showing the flag used by protestors in Belarus but it is too small to be seen in a thumbnail (I've categoried them under the EU flag if you want to see). Anyone have data though? Use in Ukraine maybe? - J Logan ^t: 07:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

No. There is no Flag of Europe. Europe is a continent. As also no Flag of America or Flag of Asia seem to exist. Hence, Flag of Europe is a bad name. European flag was correct, since it is both the flag of European Union as well as Council of Europe. It should be moved back. --Matthiasb-DE 11:17, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Em... it means the same thing. It is just a different order of words. European flag and Flag of Europe - what changes? We have Flag of Antartica despite no formal adoption - this has more grounding that that. And there is no Flag of Asia because there is no organisation such as the CoE or EU who has developed one. - J Logan ^t: 12:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no state of Europe. There's a European Council and a European Union. Neither of them is a state. Neither of them represents Europe as a hole. Europe is a continent. --Matthiasb-DE 11:40, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually its a peninsular to be technical. And its the Council of Europe, European Council is something different. But same point I made above, Antartica isn't a state. And I'm not quite sure what you're point is exactly, this is the standard naming convention. - J Logan ^t: 15:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The point is: e.g. Andorra is not in European Union, Iceland is not, Serbia is not, Montenegro is not, Ukraine is not, FYROM is not, Switzerland is not and so on - none of these countries has the right to make officially use of the flag which in WP is now named "Flag of Europe". It does not make matter that some (not all!) of these countries are members of the European council, which is only a gremium in Strasburg and not to errored with the European Union. Membership in the European Council does not give the member states the right to use its flag. Official use consists by two circumstances: it represents the European Council (as an institution, not its members!) and the member states of the EU as a whole (not a simple one). Non-EU members have no right to use that flag. Hence, the name given is wrong. Similar would be to name the Flag of the United States in future Flag of the Americas. Exactly that has be done with "Flag of Europe". That's the point I consider as - badly - wrong. --Matthiasb-DE 19:38, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

BTW: European flag is ill-fately wrong as well. It's "Flag of European Union" and "Flag of European Council" and therefore there should be two different flag files at Commons, even they appear exactly the same. However, Commons says it keeps it as one flag, since in the EN:WP the article combines both flags. What comes next? Putting together the Flag of Monaco with the Flag of Indonesia? --Matthiasb-DE 19:46, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, first it is Council of Europe, European Council is different. Second, the flag belongs to the Council of Europe - it created it and holds the rights to it, not the EU. Hence that is why the likes of Georgia use it even though they are not in the EU. Plus on your not all, there are only three states with territory in Europe who are not in the Council, and one is an observer. Back to the point though, your comments on "has no right to use the flag" are meaningless, there is no "right" in such a respect and as I have said above the flag belongs to the Council, not the Union. Andorra has perfect right to use it. And you comment on it representing the Council not its members, same can be said for the EU. The flag would represent the EU and its institutions, rather than representing Britian. It is just perspective. I haven't a clue what you're getting at with Flag of the United States/Americas - there is nothing on the US flag being for the whole of the Americas and you still haven't responded to the Antartica point which just shows the convention in action. Further more, your point on having flag of the European Union or Flag of the Council really wouldn't work as a title, it would require two seperate pages for the same flag. Anyhow, considering the above errors I suggest you read into the topic first.- J Logan ^t: 20:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry: you claim that Georgia or Andorra have the right to use that flag? Where's your source for that claim? Even the article itself does not claim that. Please tell your source. And yes, it needs two pages for the flag of different bodies, even if they appear even. As I said: We don't have a page Flag of Monaco and Indonesia. --Matthiasb-DE 07:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

What's your source! I've already stated (as the article does) that the flag belongs to the Council, not the Union. Therefore how can there Andorra not have the "right" to use the flag! They're a member of the Council who owns the flag. Further more, on your point on Monaco and Indonesia, they are just the same design, the European flag uses is the same flag with the same history, the same symbolism, the same ideas - it is the same flag used by two different organisations. You can't compare that to two similar designs.- J Logan ^t: 14:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia:Verifiability: Where it is written that Andorra can use the flag? -- As I said before, I don't like the formulation Flag of Europe which is IMO wrong. See, in German it's Europaflagge and not Flagge Europas, in French it's Drapeau européen not Drapeau de l'Europe, in many versions language (I looked up IT, ES, CS) it's localized as Flag of the European Union, not as Flag of Europe. EN:WP is the only major (european) language version using the construction Flag of Europe. The flag can be the European Flag, it can be the Flag of European Union and Flag of the Council of Europe but it cannot be the Flag of Europe. Europe is, as I stated before, no state and (pitifully) no state union as a whole but only (maybe) a geographical unity (and there are enough out in the wild doubting even that for geological reasons but that is not the theme here). --Matthiasb-DE 15:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Is anyone able to provide a free version of the proposed barcode flag? Also, of an unofficial civil ensign? Also, anyone have more data on the latter beyond the link I just put up? - J Logan ^t: 16:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review

I'd like to see this get to GA status, aside from the title needing to be sorted, does anyone see problems in this article? - J Logan ^t: 15:58, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flag in space

Information on the first EU flag flow in space - on the ISS - but where on earth - or space - to put it in the article?

"This European Union flag was flown on board the ISS during ESA astronaut Andre Kuipers' Delta Soyuz mission, April 2004." (last image)

- J Logan ^t: 16:23, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kazakhstan

Kazakhstan is not in Europe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.9.11.194 (talk) 23:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, part of Kazakhstan is in Europe, although you are correct in that much of it is not… see Kazakhstan. ~XarBioGeek (talk) 23:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)