Talk:Flag

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Delisted version: September 19, 2006
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Contents

[edit] National Flags

Article said:

A national flag is one of the important official symbols of a nation or region.

By definition a national flag is the flag of a nation, not of a region, be it a subnational or supernational one. (i.e. the Union Jack is a national flag, but the flag of Scotland isn't a national flag, nor is the flag of the European Union a national flag.)

Also, we need a proper article on flags, not just a paragraph. -- SJK

You are obviously not Scottish or been on the receiving end of an attack by a Scottish regiment! If you were either you would not say that Scotland is not a nation or the Saltire is not a national flag! picture of a tank flying the Saltire. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is a state (a political entity), and few would identify with it as a nation. Are not the flags of England, Scotland and Wales, which are flown at sporting events like the World Cup national flags?

The nation and country articles (to which this article has links) makes this clear. What the page is calling national flags are flags of the member states of the United Nations. Perhapse the definition on the page should be changed to reflect this. Philip Baird Shearer 18:06, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I am modifying the first chapter under the National flags passage where it is -wrongly- claimed that the Scottish National flag (the Saltire) is "the oldest national flag in the world still in use", without providing the source of that information. The oldest national flag still in use is the Catalan-Aragonese Senyera, first reported in royal coffins dating back to the XI century, i.e. preceding in three centuries the Dannebrog, the flag of Denmark. It is also the oldest national flag conserved (see Pennon of the Conquest), dating back to 1238 and exhibited at the City Hall of Valencia, Spain. The Royal Navy of Spain adopted the pattern of the Senyera as civil ensign in 1785, eventually becoming the flag of Spain.

If you are Scottish or interested in this question do not hesitate to write me an e-mail. I am glad to accept the statement that the Saltire is the world's oldest flag if information backing that claim is provided.

Alcinoos alcinoos@gmail.com

The passage didn't claim that the Scottish Saltire was the oldest national flag in the world still in use, but that it is believed to be. This may not be particularly appropriate language for an encyclopedia, but it is not wrong, as the Scottish flag is believed by some to date back to the 8th or 9th century.[1] Your claims could also be disputed on the issues of whether it is a "national flag", and the generally sloppy wording, including implying that the Spanish flag actually is the Senyera, rather than simply based on it. However, the main problem is that you haven't provided any more sources for this claim than were there for the Scottish claim! On top of all of this, it is worth noting that flags are supposedly included on the list in the article because they have influenced other flags around the world, not because of claims of historical precedence. JPD (talk) 18:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


Will you please first of all excuse my English. I have no particular interest on this issue other than historical accuracy. If my claims are controversial, I am open to compare further data or face a voting round. However, I do believe that I can back up my claims that the Senyera is the oldest national flag still in use. I'm not discussing that the Scottish Saltire is not the oldest flag, but that there is a vast documentation (coffins, coats, frescoes in castles) proving the presence of the Senyera in the 11th century, i.e. 1000 years ago (and please note that I'm not bringing in as evidence seals in wax of the 10th century because they lack colour). There is even the very stoff flag (the Pennon), which is also the oldest conserved, of 1238. In this sense, I do believe that I have provided more sources than the Scottish claim, and will be glad to provide more if required. Again, we are not going to start a flag battle, it is just about historical facts.
As for your observation on the adequacy of the chapter within the passage, the Senyera design meets a century-old tradition in the Mediterranean world, as shown with the flags of Catalonia, Aragon, the Land of Valencia, the Balearic Islands, Roussillon, Pyrénées Orientales, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Naples, and state flags such as the flag of Spain, the flag of the Vatican City and the flag of Andorra. As for the ambiguous language, I'll see to what the statements are clearly formulated but, I must insist, I can back my claims with historic documents and graphic material whenever required. I think the passage really fits in with the flag history of our Nordic counterparts.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alcinoos (talk • contribs) 22:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Again, this article is providing a wrong information. The claim that the Saltire is the oldest flag is unsubstantiated and lacks evidence. I have provided evidence that the Catalan flag (the Senyera) is the oldest flag in the world (1159, see Pennon of the Conquest) and that it has inspired many flag designs. I have no problem in accepting that the Scottish flag is the oldest if I am provided with evidence, otherwise this is a wrong and partisan information. BTW I'm changing the wrong statement.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.120.111.225 (talk • contribs) 13:42, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

As I have already said, the question of whether the Catalan flag is a "national flag still in use" is disputable, and reall depends o nwhat definition you take as national. To some extent, the same is true of the Scottish flag, but I think it is slightly less controversial. More importantly, you have not provided more sources than the Scottish claim. You haven't provided any sources at all! While I am not disagreeing with your claims, making claims, even saying that you can back them up with documents and graphic material, is not providing sources - you need to actually back the claims up.
As for how the entry fits in the list, and the section, the question of whether the Saltire or the Senyera has been more influential is quite subjective, and I wasn't tryign to address that. I was simply pointing out that the criterion for inclusion on the list has nothing to do with how old the symbols are. I think it would actually make more sense to leave both flags off the list, as they have been less influential than most of the other examples and the list is already longer than necessary. It might be interesting to describe the oldest known use of national flags in the text before the list - but not necessarily the oldest national flags still in use. JPD (talk) 15:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)


"But a military unit from Scythia had for a standard a dragon with a flexible tail which would move in the wind; the legions copied this; eventually all the legions had flexible standards — our modern-day flag."

Isn't this statement incorrect? From what I understand the Draco standard belonged to the Dacians not the Scythians, and was adopted after the Romans after the Romans had a winning incursion against them. Can someone please double check this and correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.106.47.39 (talk) 03:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Influential flags

Is there any particular reason to consider that the flags of the UK, Denmark and the USA are particularly famous or interesting flags ? --Calypso

Yes: they all have Wikipedia articles. :-)

  • The others are just waiting for a Wikepedian to make them famous.

More seriously, these three flags have all formed the basis of other national flags (the Union Jack for Australia, New Zealand, etc., the Stars and Stripes for Malaysia and Liberia, the Dannebrog for almost all other Nordic flags). --Zundark, 2002 Feb 10

I've heard that the Union Jack is only supposed to be called that when it's flown on a ship, but I defer to you as the Englishman. -Smack 18:51, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
You are correct. On land, it is properly known as the Union Flag. Scooter 04:57, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The Union Flag is made up of 3 saints flags St George, St Andrew and St Patrick (Representing England, Scotland and Ireland/Wales). So why not mention them as the basis of other nations flags ;-) Philip Baird Shearer 18:06, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Okay, how about the Swiss flag, which is inverted to create the symbol of the Red Cross and of ambulances and hospitals? Vicki Rosenzweig

In rewriting this topic, I listed flags which I felt had a significant influence on the designs of many other flags. It's true that the Swiss flag influenced that of the International Red Cross, but no others of significance. In the same way, the flag of the United Nations directly influenced that of Somalia, but as each had only influenced one other flag, I decided not to include them. Scooter 08:30, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Crosses, Crescents, Tricolours, Colours, Geography

If you are going to discuss influences on national flags then the symbols of

  • Christian Crosses,
  • Muslim crescents (and the colour green),
  • Revolutionary Tricolours,
  • Communist red
  • African colours
  • Geographic symbols like use of the Canadian maple leaf and the southern cross (in Australian and New Zealand flags)

should all be discussed.

Eg In Europe most none revolutionary flags are based on the Christian Cross. Most revolutionary (if only in a republican sence) ones base themselves on the French Tricolour. In many Muslim countries fly versions of the crescent indeed the red-crescent is used by many instead of the red cross because of the symbolism which the cross implies with the baggage of the crusades. Philip Baird Shearer 18:06, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dimensions and ratio

Isn't there a standard width:height ratio that most country flags use? What is it? -- Tarquin 13:55, 30 Jan 2004 (UTC)

In the UN flag code all countries' flags and the UN flag are 4 foot by 6 foot for outdoor use and 3 foot by 5 foot indoor use --except for the Swiss and Nepali flag which got exemptions. I think most countries use these sizes for their own use also. Rmhermen 14:08, Jan 30, 2004 (UTC)
No, the US flag for example is 10:19, the Union flag is 3:5 (as used by the Army) and 1:2 (as used by the Royal Navy). The majority of Commonwealth flags are 1:2, especially those based on the British ensigns. Most other flags are 2:3 or 3:5. Andrew Yong 09:05, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Missing Information

There's nothing in this arcticle about flying half-mast. I've always wondered how that stared, if it's known at all. I agree - but strictly, should it not be 'half-staff'? Fenton Robb 12:38, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] shouldn't we have as an opening picture

shouldn't we have as an opening picture have a neutral flag, instead of the French tricolour , as it may indicate promoting France or something like that. Personally I have nothing against but I am just suggesting, maybe the Swiss(officially neutral) or the UN flag. Something that is internationally neutral.CooldogCongo


Added note about the Saudi Arabian flag. I only know this useless fact because I made a cock-up when applying insignia onto the tail-fins of British-built Royal Saudi Air Force Fighter Aircraft :-)(ChrisR) 28/7/05

A flag repersenting a small amount of people eg the flag of Sealand(Image:Flag of Sealand.png) or an international flag say 
the United Nations(Image:UN flag.png) would be less offensive.--Alan Frize 16:12, 21 September 2005 (UTC)
It's an article about flags, having a French or any other flag isn't promoting France or anywhere else. The current (Mexican) picture is ok, but thought the French one was a better picture of just a flag. The only issue about the picture should be whether it is a good illustration of what a flag is. JPD 10:08, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not French, and I don't see why the French flag wouldn't be used to illustrate the article. I would prefer it over the Mexican flag we have now because it's much beautier image, in the image of Mexican flag, top and free parts of the Mexican flag are cut out of the picture, the flag covers smaller part of the image, and there is a soldier in the foreground. Nikola 20:06, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Flag Facts

Formerly 'Fascinating flag facts'. Tastes like plagiarism to me, but I can't find the source. Should probably be adjusted for tone or deleted for being banal (and copyvio if anyone finds an original). - mholland 23:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

It probably should be deleted, although some of it could be added to the end of the national flags section. JPD (talk) 13:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Names for national flags

One piece of information I really feel is missing here (or elsewhere) is a list of national names of flags. E.g. the Estonian flag is nicknamed "sinimustvalge" (i.e. "blue-black-white"). The Danish, French, British, U.S., and Malaysian flags are other examples. Thoughts anyone? --Valentinian 13:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC)


The Stars and stripes and Old Glory are mentioned as if it was the same flag, that is incorrect. Stars and stripes, USAs civillian flag, which is barely ever seen any more(if at all even) has vertical stripes while Old Glory, USAs military flag is the one commonly seen today with horizontal stripes. I read that Stars and stripes had mostly gone out of use by early 20th century. DW75 81.224.170.124 15:58, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright of flags

What is the copyright status of a flag? Can someone recreate a national design and then claim copyright? I'm specifically talking about Image:Lebanese_COA.png. --Tom Edwards 09:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linkspam

I am removing the external link to the World Flag Database, www.flags.net, on the grounds that including it violates the guidelines listed on Wikipedia:External links.

Specifically:

It violates guideline #2 In general, any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes an example of brilliant prose.

There is nothing offered on this site that is not also on Wikipedia.

Furthermore, the site violates guideline #4 Sites that primarily exist to sell products or services

www.flags.net is primarily a commercial site that is an affiliate of sites such as the United States Flag Store. The purpose of www.flags.net is to find people who want to make purchases at the Flag Store, and other sites it links to. The prominence that www.flags.net gives to advertising, including the use of pop-under ads, makes its commericial motive clear.

This leads to my next objection: www.flags.net violates wikipedia guideline #5, Sites with objectionable amounts of advertising. Flags.com contains a very large amount of ads, uses popunder ads, and buries its content so that one is forced to look at ads first.

I'm not done. Flags.com violates wikipedia guideline 8. against bookstores, since Flags.com prominiently promotes the book "British Flags & Emblems" on its main page.

Now, in favor of linking to flags.com? No reason. Flags.com meets NONE of the reasons given to link to an external site given on the Wikipedia guidelines page.

I therefore conclude that www.flags.net is a spam link, and am deleting it from the site. -- Drogo Underburrow 09:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I find this quite confusing. Firstly, with respect to guideline 2, will Wikipedia (let alone this article) ever have all the flags on the World Flag Database? The idea that the site exists primarily to sell products is ridiculous. The site is supporting by advertising and links to flag shops, but it is a database of flags, and includes many flags that aren't for sale. As for guideline 5, yes there are ads on flags.net (why are you talking about flags.com?), but to me there seem to be a lot less than on many sites. This is the most valid of your objections, but I wouldnt' call the amount of advertising "objectionable". With #8, you are getting quite petty - promoting a book does not make it a bookstore. Why wouldn't someone's personal site mention a book that they have written? Yes, you don't get content straight away, but there is too much content to put it on the front page, and it's the large amount of content that makes it worth linking to. Finally, I find it very strange that you object to the WFD, but leave links to blatantly commercial sites such as Piggotts and Flags Fantastic. JPD (talk) 10:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't object to WFD because I haven't looked at it. If I did, and it was similar to flags.net, I would also delete it. Do you want me to go look? I'd be happy to. I have no objection to you deleting any of the other external links in this article....in fact I wish you would, if they violate the guidelines.
Guideline 2: Will wikipedia ever have all the flags on the World Flag Database? Why not, its simply a matter of people adding them. And that is specifically what guideline two says, that if when the articles are made perfect....etc. Therefore, guideline 2 definitely applies, this site competes with Wikipedia, and does not offer anything that Wikipedia will not have once its entered. The point is, guideline 2, wether you agree that its a good rule or not, definately covers the case we are discussing.
Guideline 5: The fact that there are less ads than some other sites you have went to, (though I hardly see how that is possible, flags.net is heavily devoted to ads) is irrelevant. The fact is, flags.net does have a lot of ads and uses popunder ads. When you link to it from Wikipedia, you force a popunder ad to appear. This is wrong, its using Wikipedia to promote somebody's commerce.
Guideline 8: Flags.net prominently advertises its book, which it is selling. Its the first thing you see on the main page....(oh...well the second..the first thing you see is a big commerical banner ad!) That makes it a bookstore. You call this petty. Call me all the names you want...that doesn't change that you are arguing for linking to a page that is selling something, and have still given no reason under the reasons to link to an external page listed in the guidelines. Drogo Underburrow 10:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


I strongly support JPD. flags.net (not flags.com), BTW, is the WFD (World Flag Database! Some people might object, that a website contains adds and sells something, but the fact is, that World Flag Database (flags.net) is one of the most reliable sources for flags on the internet. Furthermore, a lot of information, has been taken from there to Wikipedia: most of the flag images on Wikipedia are redrawings of the WFD images, as can easily be seen in the drawing style, see for instance http://www.flags.net/images/largeflags/GERM0002.GIF and Image:Flag_of_Germany_(state).svg.--Mevsfotw 11:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
As Mevsfotw says, you seem to have missed the point that the World Flag Database *is* flags.net. The name gives quite a hint as to what the site is. If you look at the site as whole, you find that that is what it is. Guideline 2 is interesting. If we take it too far, then we would have hardly any external links for this article. As it is, I think quite a few of the WFD flags wouldn't pass AfD, so guideline 2 doesn't apply and it's worth having a link to them. I don't see any popunder ads. How can you possibly say that a site which says "I have written a book. You can buy it from me" is a bookshop? The ironic thing is that you have left on the list the other site that sells the book! No, don't suggest removing it, as the Flag Insitute, even if it does sell this book, is not primarily commercial, but a respected research organisation. When the guidelines say don't link to anything that does anything commercial, you might have a point, but they don't. The reason to include the link is firstly obvious and secondly the same as for many of the other links included - the site "has a level of detail which is inappropriate for the Wikipedia article" (#5). JPD (talk) 11:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Baloney. Most content at flags.net IS on Wikipedia already, if not all. The material that isn't currently in Wikipedia, if any exists, will be added to Wikipedia in the future...just as Guideline 2 says. Neither of you has given a single reason consistent with the Wikipedia:External links policy page on why Wikipedia should link to this site, while I have shown how it violates several of the guidelines. Therefore, I strongly oppose using Wikipedia to promote this commercial site. Find some other way of promoting this commercial site. Drogo Underburrow 11:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for removing the other links. I hope you agree that WFD is not in quite the same category as the others, even if you do think it shouldn't be there. You have mentioned four guidelines:
  • 8. Bookstores. Including a facility to purchase one particualr book by means of a transaction with the author of the book does not make the site a bookstore.
  • 5. Objectionable levels of advertising. Obviously this is subjective. I don't find the levels of advertising particularly objectionable, but then again, I haven't seen any of the "popunder ads" that you claim are there, and I use the site fairly often.
  • 4. "Sites that primarily exist to sell products or services". This just doesn't describe WFD. I don't know whether you are just completey mistaken about the nature of the site, or whether you think the guideline is stronger than it is. Avoiding sites which facilitate sales or have any commercial aspect is an ideal for which I have some sympathy, but it isn't policy. Until it is, a site supported by advertising and commercial links is ok.
  • 2. Not providing a resource beyond that of Wikipedia. The most relevant point. The complement of this is the guideline 5 for including links, so arguing for including the link under (5) is the same as arguing against the relevance of (2). I don't expect Wikipedia to end up covering all of the following, for example: Australian Chief of Naval Staff flag, HM Revenue & Customs Commissioners’ Pennant, The Sovereign’s Standard of The Blues and Royals, Metropolitan Police Ensign, Boys’ Brigade Queen’s Colour, Sea Scout Ensign, Royal Albert Yacht Club Burgee, Canadian Intelligence Branch Camp Flag, etc? JPD (talk) 11:37, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
There is no reason that Wikipedia cannot cover info on all flags. Outside links are for sites that offer information that is beyond the scope of Wikipedia. This site does not offer that sort of information, and the prominent place given to ads on this site, including the use of popunder ads.(regardless of wether you get them, they are attempted by the site) makes this site a spam site.Drogo Underburrow 11:51, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
Also, I think the "Country Flags" link needs to be removed as well. Haluk dayi 05:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing Information

Shouldn't there be a section on avalanche flags (used in ski resorts to signal avalanche danger) ?

[edit] more ideas for article

Those are helpful articles. Please consider adding information about the following:

The flage of the USA was promoted by the Bellamy Family with the Pledge of Allegiance. Francis Bellamy (author of the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag) and Edward Bellamy (author of the novel "Looking Backward") and Charles Bellamy (author of "A Moment of Madness") and Frederick Bellamy (who introduced Edward to socialistic "Fourierism") were socialists. Edward, Charles and Frederick were brothers, and Francis was their cousin. Francis and Edward were both self-proclaimed National Socialists and they supported the "Nationalism" movement in the USA, the "Nationalist" magazine, and the "Nationalist Educational Association." They wanted all of society to ape the military and they touted "military socialism" and the "industrial army." Edward’s book was an international bestseller, translated into every major language (including German) and he inspired the "Nationalist Party" (in the USA) and their dogma influenced socialists worldwide (including Germany) via “Nationalist Clubs.”

Hitler’s notorious salute for patriotism in Germany originated from the USA’s early Pledge of Allegiance. The original Pledge began with a military salute that then stretched out toward the flag. In actual use, the second part of the gesture was performed with a straight arm and palm down by disinterested children perfunctorily performing the forced ritual chanting by extending the initial military salute, as shown by the historian, Dr. Rex Curry. Due to the way that both gestures were used sequentially in the pledge, the military salute led to the hard, stylized salute of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. The Nazi salute is an extended military salute via the USA’s Pledge.

In a similar vein, the flag of Germany under Hitler used the swastika symbol. Although it was an ancient symbol, the swastika was given a modern twist for the German flag and was used sometimes by the National Socialist German Workers Party to represent overlapping “S” letters for their “socialism,” and nationalism as shown by Professor Curry. The same symbolism is shown in Hitler’s own bizarre signature, which Hitler altered to use the same stylized "S" letter for "socialist," and similar alphabetic symbolism still shows on Volkswagens.

Much (if not all) of this is already covered under Pledge of Allegiance. I've added that page to the See Also section, and would suggest including further pledge-related context there, not here. ScottMainwaring 22:08, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Initial Image

There seems to be a revert war over the initial image of this article. Which image should be used for the initial image of this article? I would prefer an image of a flag flapping in the breeze on a flagpole, such as the Image:Tricolore flagpole.mirrored.jpg that, according to the history page, has been the image most used on this article as the initial image so far. In my opinion this type of image best demonstrates the most commonly viewed form of a flag (a flag attached to a flagpole). In my opinion, two-dimensional, non-photographic, images of flags are best suited for articles on flag designs, such as comparing Germany's and Belgium's flags. Jecowa 05:27, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree completely, the initial image should be a good illustration of a flag in use. The image of the Taiwan flag is not special in any way. Valentinian

[edit] Good Article

I awarded good article status, however I kind of feel as though there should be something cited in the sentence "Some believe flags originated in China, while others hold that the Roman Empire's vexillum was the first true flag," to say who exactly these people are who hold these claims, and even why they disagree with each other. TonyJoe 01:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC)(talk) 09:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flagpoles

Maybe we should add an image of the Brazilian flag in the Square of the Three Powers, Brasília. I found some good ones with google but unfortunately I am not used to image posting in Wikipedia. Can someone help? These are links to the images: [2] [3] [4] [5] --El Chemaniaco 16:44, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi El Chemaniaco! To upload images to Wikipedia, you can use the Upload file link in the toolbox on the left of your screen. However, you will note that that page says "Images found on websites or on an image search engine should not be uploaded to Wikipedia.", because using these images would be a copyright infringement. Apart from that, the section on Flagpoles seems to have enough images already anyway. JPD (talk) 17:24, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks JPD. I'll anyhow email these people to try to get a permission, I guess that would be alright? (I've seen images here from this touristic site). if flagpoles gets too croweded, I guess these images I linked are much more interesting than the San Diego one...

[edit] Picture of Canberra

I have edited the caption from saying it is outside the Parliament House in Canberra. The row of flags are about a kilometre away along Lake Burley Griffen, between the High Court and a science museum and in front of Reconciliation Place. However you can say the flags are in the Parliamentary Triangle. See Canberra for more details Kransky 03:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA delisted

The original concern when this article was promoted has not been addressed. The phrase "Some believe" is an example of weasel words and should be corrected with a proper citation. There are some other examples of weasel words in the article:

  • "One of the most popular uses..."
  • "...is believed to be..."

There are several assertions with a verification needed tag. Clearly someone saw the need for citations. In general, in order to obtain Good Article status, inline citations are required for verifiability (see criterion 2 of WP:WIAGA). Other assertions that need citations include the reverse colouring of the Swiss flag giving rise to the Red Cross flag, the Netherlands having the oldest tricolour, and the same for the other assertions for France, US, etc. There are only two references for an article that is rather broad in coverage which is insufficient. I also would like to see an expansion on the history section as there are some well-known, but no longer used flags.

Concerning prose, what does the following sentence mean? Is this a runon sentence?

  • "The Flag of the Netherlands is also the only flag in the world that is adapted for some uses, when the occasion has a connection to the royal house of the Netherlands an orange ribbon is added."

The number of one-sentence paragraphs should be reduced.

I would recommend that these items be fixed before renomininating the article. RelHistBuff 10:52, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] project 3 grade

I have a project to do and I need some colorsfor the flag. What website could I go to, to get some good colors?

[edit] pan-slavic flags comes form russian flag???

what is this??? who wrote this???

those flags have nothing to do with russian flag, for example: croatian flag originates form time of french revolution and tree colour flags... and should i continue?

No, you shouldn't, because you're wrong. --dllu 21:28, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Exact squares?

The flags of Switzerland and Vatican City are the only national flags which are exact squares.

????

Oh my God, who wrote this??? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.139.98.119 (talk) 20:56, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

What's the problem? It's true. Arguably a completely irrelevant fact, but true nevertheless. --dllu 21:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fabrication of flags?

I'd like to know how they are made and why some stand up to gales and others just disintegrate into tatters. You'd have thought that by now, someone would have invented a fabric that could stand up to the wind. So, please let's have a bit on this too. Fenton Robb 12:44, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Rules of Colour

Didn't there used to be ancient laws regarding the colours of flags? I once read, in a book called 'Investigations in Mathematics' by... Lorraine Mottershead (or something) that:

Yellow and White are metals (not colours). They are known as Gold and Silver.

The rule stated that metal couldn't touch metal, and colour couldn't touch colour. So, for example, at no point on the flag of say, the United Kingdom does red touch blue, its always separated by white (silver). The flag of Norway is a blue cross on a red background, separated also by silver.

Many more modern flags of course deviate from this rule... but as a trivia nut i think its worth mentioning.

-- Mick 25th of April 2007 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.211.8.2 (talk) 15:21, 25 April 2007 (UTC).

You're thinking about the heraldic rule of tincture. The older a flag or coat of arms is, the more likely is it that it follows this rule. The most notable exception is the coat of arms of the crusader kingdom of Jerusalem. Valentinian T / C 16:48, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] National flags list

The list in the national flags section is clearly a list of examples of national flags that had particular influence over other flags. The entries concerning the Swiss and Brazilian empire flags involved flags being based on them, but not to the same extent as the other examples, and the list is already long without them. The Scottish entry didn't even pretend to be about influential flags in order to justify its conclusion. JPD (talk) 13:30, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Civil flag merge proposal

I suspect that the proposal is not so much to merge the Civil flag article into this one, as to make sure this article has information on civil flags, summarising that article. This should definitely be done, either by adding sections for state and civil flags, or by simply mentioning both in the national flags section (which could probably do with a re-write). JPD (talk) 18:36, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Agree with JPD. This article should contain brief information about the most common types of flags, but I don't see a need for a complete merge between the two articles. Valentinian T / C 20:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Micronations

Why was Flags of Micronations deleted? Could someone change the table acordingly?Land raider 12:56, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The article was deleted as a result of the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flags of micronations. I have removed the link from the table (you can edit it by clicking on the small "e" at the top left). JPD (talk) 13:36, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Hoist (flag) into here

The article Hoist (flag) is a stub, has little scope of expansion, and is almost an orphan (only the disambiguation page links to it). Preferable would be a section in Flag dealing comprehensively with the parts of a flag - hoist, fly, canton, and so on. Darcyj 06:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

On top of that, the stub is a bit misleading. I would suggest simply redirecting it to Flag terminology, rather than this article. JPD (talk) 10:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dutch and French at odds

The comments about the tricolour flags of the Netherlands and France influencing other new tricolour flags seem to be at odds. Was it the dutch or the french that influenced further flags? The page is unclear. Jdpipe 10:36, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Who's the idiot that doesn't know what a national flag is?

In response to a friend's query I discovered, a few weeks ago, that Denmark's flag was the oldest *state* flag, but Catalonia's was an older *national* flag. Returning to Flag article a week later, I discovered that reference to Catalonia's flag had been deleted!!!!

If my vote counts, I vote that "national flag" includes flags like Scotland's and Catalonia's but that's not the key point. Perhaps there's a better term for "national flag". BUT WHY IN THE NAME OF TARNATION did any idiot feel that it was appropriate to COMPLETELEY DELETE interesting and useful information about such flags just because they quibbled with the term "national flag"???????

Jamesdowallen 06:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


As I said elsewhere, if you have sourced information, please add it to the article in an appropriate manner. All attempts to add this information so far have been unsourced, overly simplistic and out of context. JPD (talk) 11:42, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

To whom it may concern:

First, as someone who actually accessed "Flag" at Wikipedia to pursue a piece of research rather than to edit the page, let me say why I did so:

I was specifically curious what the oldest National Flag was! A sample of one is not statistically significant but I wonder if others, with their ideas of what "Flag" should say, have a larger sample of real users.

(Sorry if I seem ill-tempered. I've suffered other misguided Wikipedia editing in silence; the "Flag" vandalism is just the "camel's back-breaking straw" that finally provoked reaction.)

The "Flag" and "National Flag" pages appear to have been edited by someone who equates "nation" with "sovereign country as defined by the 2007 United Nations." I'm sorry; I don't have a particular "source" for my definition of "national flag." How about ... Webster's dictionary?

I can't think of a better word than "national flag" to define the class of flags which includes Scotland's and Catalonia's flags as well as "state flags" but perhaps there is one.

But someone reading Wikipedia's "Flag" or "National Flag" articles would come away confused, thinking that Scotland's flag (and St. George's Cross, etc.) had ceased to exist, or could not be classified in any words available to Wikipedia's editors!

You say you "need a source." I'm a newcomer to the Wikipedia National Flag controversy, and can't be bothered to study every edit and every Talk item. Do you "need a source" that Catalonia has a flag at all? Someone certainly seems to have expunged all mention of it in these articles.

The expunged material made the claim that Catalonia's flag was probably several centuries older than Denmark's. Is this the claim that had to be expunged because it lacked a source? Do you challenge the truth, or just the lack of source? (I'm sure you're aware that many unsourced statements are true, just as many sourced statements are false.) Are you aware that Wikipedia has a mechanism, other than complete expurgation, for flagging unsourced material?

And by the way, what is your source for your peculiar interpretation of "national flag"? To make this term synonomous with "state flag" is to lose a distinction. And while Scotland might be called a "region" it is certainly a "nation." Merriam's definition is full of equivocation and alternation but features "a people having a common origin, tradition, and language and capable of forming or actually constituting a nation-state." (If Scotland is incapable of forming a nation-state, you'd better inform the Scots!)

Unbelievably, the person who deleted mention of Catalonia's flag did so because the top of the article is "not the place for oldest flag claims", yet left the Denmark claim intact!

Please please please, let's keep the pedantry down below 60 decibels.

Please restore, in whatever fashion pleases your pedantic instincts, the interesting and useful information you expurgated. I don't want to resort to a silly Wikipedia editing war, but to demonstrate conviction I've just restored better versions of these articles (and will continue to do so as I notice further vandalism).


Jamesdowallen 07:26, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Please at least read the articles in question and the comments above, and tell us where anyone has made a claim that "national flag" relates only sovereign states, let alone anything to do with the UN. While it is true that the article National flag does not at all explicitly deal with anything satisfying the broader definition of nation, it definitely doesn't say that the Senyera or St Andrew's Cross are not national flags. More to the point, noone has removed the Catalonia picture+claim using a particular definiton as "national" as their justification. This is simply a straw man that you have created. (In particular, I have not said anythign about the Senyera not being a "national flag", and definitely haven't equated "national flag" with "state flag", which doesn't simply mean "flag of a sovereign state", anyway.)
You say you were looking for information on the oldest national flag. It would be good to be able to find such information on Wikipedia, but not necessarily in the caption to the opening image on the flag (or or even national flag) article. This article happens to begin with an image of the oldest state flag, but could just as easily begin with a picture of the oldest flag of any sort (if we knew what that was), the newest national flag, a signal flag or the flag of the Aberdeen Coal and Shipping Company, if it did a good job of illustrating a flag. The fact that the caption tells us an interesting piece of information about the flag shown is not a reason to add pictures of any flags with similar claims to fame. That is just as silly as adding a picture of Melbourne to the Demography section of Australia simply because there was already a picture of Sydney. It would be great to have more (accurate, well-written) details on oldest flags, but they would belong in the text of an article, not in a crowd of image captions. This is one of the reasons why I said above that the info added was "out of context".
So you say that the information should be restored to such a section. (I would suggest that national flag would be a better place than this article.) However, this is easier said than done. The material is at the very least unsourced. You say that there are other ways of dealing with this, and indeed there are, but the fact that material is unsourced often points to deeper problems. The "is said to be" version is weaselly. The "Senyera is the oldest national flag still in use" version is highly disputable. Both are overly simplistic, which I also pointed out above. They are misleading, if not wrong.
I don't understand why you think having misleading/wrong information (no matter how informative/"useful") is better than leaving it out. I don't challenge the truth of the claim that in some sense the flag of Catalonia is an older national flag than the flag of Denmark, but that was not the claim made in the article. The addition to the article claimed that the Senyera was the oldest national flag. Above, you insist above that Scotland's flag is a national flag, but ignore the Saltire's claim to being older than the Senyera. The fact is that there is not simple answer to the question what the oldest national flag is. Apart from disputes over what is a "nation", which you have mentioned at length, there are many other arguments. The legendary origin of the Scottish flag is a good 60 years earlier than the legendary origin of the Catalonian flag. However, these are only legends, leaving plenty of room for argument. Moreover, these stories only refer to the origin of the symbols on the flag, not use of actual flags. The Senyera appears to be in some way related to the Pennon of the Conquest, which is claimed to be the oldest actual flag still in existence, but this dates from after both the Dannebrog's legendary origin and the adoption of the Austrian arms, so there isn't any reason to say anything conclusive. The Welsh have a even more convoluted/practically unsupported claim to the oldest flag.
In fact, users had been replacing an image of the Saltire with the Senyera, and vice versa, at the top of the article for a while, claiming that each was the oldest national flag. Since neither claim is particularly good, and we already had one decent image (with a claim that is at least widely accepted, if not watertight), it was better to avoid these arguments and remove both images. If you feel you have the knowledge/sources to create a section of national flag dealing with these claims, then go ahead, but please make sure that the claims are serious or at least verifiable, not simply based on thoughts posted to blogs or added by nationalists to Wikipedia. Remember, just because it was in the article when you first saw it doesn't mean that it is correct. JPD (talk) 13:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Use of the Ulster Flag to Represent the Province of Northern Ireland

I've noticed that in most references to the province of Northern Ireland, the Ulster banner [[6]] has been used even though it has not been in official use since 1972. Should it not be replaced in each case with the official Union Flag? [[7]] Scribbler1969 (talk) 20:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

What has that got to do with this article? JPD (talk) 13:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

It has everything to do with this article (National Flags). Can you answer the query or not? Scribbler1969 (talk) 16:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

This page is for talking about improvements to the article "Flag". Your question is nothing to do with this article, but about how a flag is used on other pages of Wikipedia. It is a question that I have seen discussed in many other places more appropriate than this, but in any case I think you are being overly simplistic. What is the point of using the flag image? Is it to show a flag officially used in the area, or to use a symbol identifying the area in particular? Does there need to be any flag at all? JPD (talk) 23:18, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I see your point, and it is well taken. To answer your other questions would also be inappropriate here. I'll look for the relevant pages. Scribbler1969 (talk) 00:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] The biggest flag

The biggest flags in the world are Turkish and TRNC flags. Here they are: http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3200/zoom3xer2.jpg http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/9711/zoom2xwb7.jpg Please edit the page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.156.171.193 (talk) 10:53, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I consider these as a flag, since they are the drawings of the national ensign, but some users have been expressing uncontempt due to the fact that these are not drawn "on cloth", but on "land". Now what should we do?
--Eae1983 (talk) 21:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree that we should add information about the TRNC flag to the article, and we can do this without removing the information about the Israeli flag. The only problem is that the two sources contradict each other. [8] says "Each of these flags is about 450 meters wide and covers an area which is more than 4 football fields." However, [9] says "An existing ‘TRNC’ flag painted onto the southern slopes of the range, and equal in size to 11 football pitches..." Do we have any more authoritative sources on the subject? (i.e. official measurements?) Khoikhoi 06:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok khoikhoi, let me find something about that. --Eae1983 (talk) 12:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
The TRNC flag should certainly not be added. It has no official status as the largest flag of any kind. If it must be added, it should be on the TRNC article. Harry the Dog WOOF 20:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge from List of largest flags

Per the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of largest flags, the contents of the list article have been moved here. For simplicity's sake I have only included entries that are physical flags (not paintings or renderings thereof). I leave it up to the maintainers of this article to decide how to best format/present this information. Arkyan 22:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but keep in mind that the Israeli flag near Masada is not a physical flag, it is a painting just like the TRNC flag. Khoikhoi 05:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Um, I think it is a physical flag you will find. "This flag plus 3 other gigantic national flags and 180 smaller flags of other countries were later sewn together..." How can a painting be "sewn together"? Harry the Dog WOOF 05:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
For the sake of information, I'd add the Cyprus flag as the biggest image or represent of a flag in the world until now, even though it is not made in textile. --Eae1983 (talk) 14:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
As I said, "for the sake of information" add it to the TRNC page. It does not belong here. If this continues, I will ask for the AfD decision to be reviewed, as there seemed to be a consensus that it should be deleted, and the problems with merging that I predicted seem to be happening. Harry the Dog WOOF 14:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)