Image talk:Flag of Canada.svg

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've compared the suggested printing ink colours (Pantone 032 and 485) in Photoshop, and they both look similar but not the same as the colour of Urhixidur's flag graphic. The Pantone colours are meant for reflective media, and don't translate directly to screen colours (print has a narrower colour gamut, so the brightest colours it can reproduce look dull on the computer screen). To my eye, these are all too deep red, and don't capture the bright, slightly orangy colour of the national flag.

I also noticed the gc.ca page recommends "When printing in four colour process, the proper mixture is 100% yellow and 100% magenta". This is equivalent to RGB (255, 0, 0), which the government of Canada web sites use for their flag graphics almost exclusively, including in the boilerplate at the top and in the body of the National Flag pages where the specs for printing inks are found (e.g., [1]). It's hard to accept arguments against this precedent.

I also used a cleaned-up version of the original CIA factbook image. Although it's not perfect, its curves are smoother than the Sodipodi version, and it retains the curved corners at the root of the stem.

Finally, a border is needed at the edge of the white fields, or the flag will lose its shape when displayed on a white page background.

Any suggestions? If there's no objection, I'll revert the flag back to the previous version.

—Michael Z. 00:47, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)

Egads. Why destroy the info block? It is needed to properly document the source of the image and its design details.

Anyway, on to the colour issue: 100% yellow and 100% magenta (in the CMYK system) is not (255, 0, 0), it is (218, 37, 29) --according to Corel Draw 9, anyway. The Pantone to RGB conversions I also got directly from Corel Draw 9 (it includes the full list of Pantone colours in its various palettes). As for using the government's own GIFs as a source, I wouldn't put too much faith in that (I work for that very government). Anyway, if Photoshop translates the Pantone colours somewhat differently than Corel, its probably due to gamma correction or monitor colour profiles...Since Pantone is not meant for active displays, this is a hopeless debate. Since the colours chosen are pretty close anyway, it doesn't matter much.

As a vexillologist, however, I will object to the addition of a border. The border is *not* part of the flag design. If you want a flag with a border, upload it as such (e.g. "Canada flag large w border.png"). Borders aren't required with most wiki use, which frames or thumbnails flags nicely with a thin grey border.

Urhixidur 04:01, 2004 Dec 12 (UTC)

Why was the flag reverted to its initial version? It looks too blocky and asymmetric. The version I uploaded is the version most Canadian flags in existence use. Denelson83 08:18, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Anthony's new flag image

Hello! Unsatisfied with any of the representations of the Canadian flag already present, I decided to redraw using CorelDraw 12 and based on:

(1) Diagrams and proportions at the authoritative website (Department of Canadian Heritage) indicated above, particularly correcting the shape of the leaf: the CIA factbook image is too 'blocky' and some of the lines between points on the leaf are not curved as indicated in other images placed; (2) Pantone colour (032) indicated above; (3) The image is border-free since most of the other flags, logos, and other images are as such, as well.

Thoughts? Have fun!

User:E Pluribus Anthony 03:01, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Looks very good. Some comments:
  • The shape looks better than any of the previous ones!
  • I've seen versions where the base of the stem has rounded corners, and others where it doesn't. Do you know if square stem-base here is authoritatively correct?
  • I always assumed that the strange size, 604×302 pixels, was to allow for borders. Why not make it exactly 600×300?
  • How would you feel about posting a vector file, so it can be reused by others? I think SVG format would be most in tune with Wikipedia's open-format preference, but I'm sure that any one of PDF, EPS, Corel Draw, or Illustrator formats would be useful if you can't output SVG.
  • Pantone colour specifications are for CMYK-separation reflective inks on coated paper. Using them directly on the screen without any colour management is pretty much guaranteed to not match their original intent. In this case, my eye agrees that the red colour is rather too dull-looking. Imagine if this colour were printed on bright white cloth, seen in direct sunlight—it would stand out from its surroundings quite a bit more.
Please don't take this as negative criticism! Thanks for the good work. —Michael Z. 2005-03-28 08:31 Z

Thanks for the feedback; I really appreciate it! Call me anal, but I get perturbed when I see representations of the Canadian flag online and off that are...out of whack, stylistic license notwithstanding. :) In response to you, Michael Z:

  • I, too, recall seeing versions of the flag with rounded stems, so I've change the image as suggested. Upon taking a glance at a copy of the Royal Proclamation for the flag, though, this is not wholly apparent.
  • Upon perusal of other pages, flags indeed do generally measure 300 pixels high, so I've resized my image appropriately.
  • Is the process for posting a vector (EPS, SVG) or PDF file the same as for said image? I will gladly provide this.
  • The red is now true RGB red, though reserve the right to change it to the admittedly duller PMS red specified by the Government of Canada. ;)

Additional feedback is encouraged. Enjoy!

User:E Pluribus Anthony 10:01, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I took the liberty of cleaning up the edges and reducing the file size using pngcrush. I'm a little worried that the colour may have shifted, but that might be because of my browser's colour-matching.
I think you can upload any binary file just like an image, although it probably will only give you a download link instead of displaying the file on its page. Just speculating, though. —Michael Z. 2005-03-28 17:31 Z

Thanks again for your massaging, Michael Z; I believe the 1 px edges were a pesky figment of rendering the image unaltered in CorelDraw 12 . . . something I'll be more observant of hereafter and for which I've corrected. I will upload an EPS of the flag shortly.

Whatyathink?

User:E Pluribus Anthony 20:01, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yup, it's hard to avoid aliased edges when you convert line art to raster graphics (e.g. Corel Draw to PNG). I think you can avoid the aliased edges by sizing the graphic to the intended final size (e.g. 600×300 px), and snapping the corners to a 1px grid while you draw the rectangular fields. But then don't forget to change or turn off the grid before you work on more free-form elements, like the leaf. It's often easier to edit the PNG in Photoshop, pixel-by-pixel with the pencil tool. I sometimes do this with text-as-graphics too, because it can be impossible to align every letter with the pixel grid.
The latest flag is the best ever. Nitpicking: I'm still seeing a slight 1px halo, pink on the inner edge of the left-hand rectangle. And, I'm embarrassed to even mention it, but the butt-end of the stem could be a crisp edge too.
Let me know when you're not planning to make any more changes. I'll avoid editing the image (something I did introduced a colour shift earlier), but I'll run the file through pngcrush, which will optimize the file size without changing it. —Michael Z. 2005-03-28 23:11 Z

Hello--and thanks--again! I've made suggested editions to the art. I just realised that one can export images from CorelDraw 12 into any format with or without antialiasing, so I've done so with the pales but NOT with the leaf (as this makes it look awkward unless the image is of high enough resolution to apparently form straight lines); thus, I've retained the blur around the leaf.

I've also made the stem blunt, as is almost universally the case; however, upon glancing at sketches/diagrams of the prototype flag in a book called "I stand for Canada: the story of the Maple Leaf Flag" by Rick Archbold, the base of the stem is actually angled 45 degrees (NE/SW). Strange, eh? Perhaps Mr. A. erred?

Beyond this--and file compression, which I can't seem to swing at this time--I think that's it! Additional thoughts? Thanks again!

User:E Pluribus Anthony 06:01, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I pngcrushed it to save a teensy bit of database space and bandwidth. That looks just about perfect. Good work. —Michael Z. 2005-03-29 00:08 Z
Can you upload the vector version to the WikiCommons, possibly with a link from here? It would be very useful for purposes that require scaling of the flag, and I havn't been able to find a suitable copy of it in such a format around the web. Your replication is pretty dern perfect. 24.76.121.234 5 July 2005 04:51 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

I don' tsee the Canadian flag here, can we fix this? --Image:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 02:32, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

I reverted it, and I serious thinking about asking for this image to be locked. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:33, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Reverting doesn't work, you have to actually upload the image again. I downloaded it from Wikimedia Commons and reuploaded it. I think it'd be a great idea to lock it. --Image:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 02:40, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
What I did was I clicked (rev), which brought the image back to normal. I also filled a request for protection and told everyone in the Wikipedia IRC about the image being vandalized. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:42, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
We should see about getting the vandalizer, User:LyndonJohnson banned. --Image:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 02:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
I don't get this. This image is on commons as well. Couldn't it just be deleted? Dmcdevit·t 02:48, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
I reported him to Vandalism in Progress. However, while it may be on the Commons, the vandal can just upload a copy here and we will be in an even bigger mess than we are in now. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:50, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about the reverts I made. My finger slipped. Carson.Talk 02:51, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
It's ok, I reverted it back. We can revert as many times, since 3RR does not apply to clear vandalism. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 02:52, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Too bad we can't physically revert the vandal. ;-) --Image:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 02:55, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, all of those versions, and all of the reverts we did, got deleted (probably to save disk space). I have no clue if it is protected now, but I still have my request up. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:03, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
It looks like it's been protected. --Image:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 03:08, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Yup: 21:56, 7 August 2005 Sasquatch protected Image:Canada flag large.png ({{vprotect}}) Zscout370 (Sound Off) 03:09, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Great! :-) --Image:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 03:13, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Oops, yea, I protected it and deleted all the pointless revisions and will list this as per proper procedure. Sorry, i've been caught up trying to solve an edit war and some other random stuff and almost forgot about this. Anyways, hope this helps and Canada rocks =) (Yes, I'm POVed pro-Canada) Sasquatch↔讲↔看 05:51, August 8, 2005 (UTC)

Thank god someone has locked the Canadian flag image; it was distressing to see an image I co-created incessantly vandalised and replaced with a ... coprophiliac. :) E Pluribus Anthony 08:02, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mass flag replacement

I disagree with the mass flag replacement that's been going on. Ardenn 01:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Protection

I looked at the protection log, and it was last protected when it was on the main page. It doesn't look like the protection was ever removed, but nevertheless, the log does not seem to reflect this. As a result, I've protected this image because a lot of pages link to it. --HappyCamper 23:10, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Most of the discussion above happened when this page was located at Image_talk:Canada_flag_large.png; I have just merged the edit history of that page into this one. For the record: the first edit of the .svg talk page was the edit on January 5, 2006; the last edit on the .png talk page was the one of February 17, 2006. Eugène van der Pijll 11:37, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Correct colours found at Canadian Department of Heritage website

There are two variant red shades used on the Canadian flag according to Canadian Department of Heritage website, at http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/sc-cs/df11_e.cfm the red used to produce screens and flying flags is PMS 485. When produced at 100% red, it is PMS 032 http://www.canadianheritage.gc.ca/progs/cpsc-ccsp/sc-cs/df11_e.cfm

The colour of the Canadian flag IS NOT BRIGHT RED as others have displayed it. The bright red is a simplification of the colours, mainly used on websites and unofficial flags, much as the U.S. and U.K. flags are often misrepresented with overly bright reds which do not match the Pantone colours described.

The poster is correct. The Canadian flag is a dark red, like the red used on flags of other British territories (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bf/Flag_of_Bermuda.svg/800px-Flag_of_Bermuda.svg.png). Flags that are 255-0-0 would quickly fade or turn orange. The flag used by the Government of Canada in print media is dark red, as are all physical Canadian flags. The tiny Canadian flag on Government of Canada websites use web-friendly 255-0-0 colours for compatibility and viewability reasons, but this should not be construed as validation of the continued reversions of attempts to correct the colour of the Canadian flag SVG image. You only have to look at a Canadian flag to see how wrong an RGB value of FF0000 is. I'm sorry, but I'm a government employee and it's Canada Day, so every government building I pass on the way to work is draped in a 10 metre by 5 metre Canadian flag using the dark red described in the poster's link. The colour that editors keep putting back would look terrible on a flagpole.

DOSGuy 10:31, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

The discussion about the image should be made on the Wikimedia Commons, where the image is hosted. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I concur. Gary King (talk) 01:03, 26 April 2008 (UTC)