Talk:First aid/archive

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This achive contains Talk material from before January 1, 2005 Andrewjuren 21:30, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Unclassified

This definitely needs to be reviewed. I'm training as a certified disaster service worker, under FEMA-approved training, but a review/rewrite by a real MD or EMT would be better. Ray Van De Walker

I am an EMT-B (VA) and have begun a rewrite. What was there wasn't bad at all, but needed to be fleshed out. The only thing I think was actually wrong was that first aid doesn't refer to what EMTs do. In some sense, this is true but EMTs generally use the term, probably because if we don't do first aid, and we're not allowed to practice medicine, then what do we do? Anyway, I've always used first aid to refer to anything done before MDs get involved, which can be anything from a band-aid to an emergency tracheotomy. Tokerboy 12:58 Nov 13, 2002 (UTC)

Comment: user:clarka I have hacked at this now and again. but I don't put anything in that I'm not 100% sure of. See the EMT article for what EMTs do. First aid is what laypersons do. (someone write an article on CERT before I do, please!) I didn't want to overwhelm novices (particularly the poor guy doing first aid because Google pulled up the wiki article because someone is hurt _right now_, which is one reason for emphasizing Call for Help and the very carefully written Call for Help article) . . . but I wanted to link to more comprehensive material elsewhere as well. Emergency medicine is what EMTs and paramedics do. You are acting under the direction of an MD (either by licensure for EMTs or by direct supervision for paramedics) and you _ARE_ a medical professional. An emergency needle cricothorocotomy is NOT first aid, and I certainly do not want to give instructions for an emergency tracheotomy in wikipedia because I am NOT an MD myself. As you are licensed you are held to a higher standard of care, Good Sam flies out the window, and you should have malpractice insurance. Thanks for continuing to stab at it, but please try to keep it organized! :)

If the patient is conscious, it is important to ask for permission before proceeding. Touching another person under any circumstances without that person's permission is considered assault in most jurisdictions.

5 years ago I followed a first aid training course in Belgium. I don't remember anything said about consent (but I'm not sure). Is this a US thing? Care should be taken with legal matters as they may vary widely from country to country. D.D. 10:39 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

Comment: clarka. Agreed but I think consent is required internationally as well. It is certainly better for the patient and good form, if not legally required.

Something else: in Belgium I AM allowed to touch persons without their consent in some special circumstances. For example to perform a so-called "civil arrest" (= immobilize a criminal until the police arrives -- I'm not sure about the English translation). D.D. 10:43 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

clarka: this has NOTHING to do with first aid. It is citizen's arrest or to put it accurately, a private person arrest. See security guard Thanks though.

I know it has nothing to do with it. I just wanted to point out that saying "Touching another person under any circumstances without that person's permission is considered assault in most jurisdictions" is not correct, because it also covers circumstances outside first aid (such as a citizen's arrest). BTW, thanks for the correct term. D.D. 12:56 Jan 8, 2003 (UTC)

I'd like to take issue with the section on "ABC". First of all, the acronym should be used in the plural ("ABC's"), with the s representing severe bleeding. Second, to the best of my knowledge, the ABC's thing is just a CPR guideline, whereas the actual list of immediate emergencies is as follows: stopped breathing, no circulation, severe bleeding, internal poisoning. I was taught this list under the name of "hurry cases." It eliminates the "airway" portion of "ABC's", which is redundant with "breathing" except in the context of CPR.

Furthermore, the statement that severe bleeding should be checked for by patting down the body is absolutely ridiculous. Severe bleeding means copious bleeding - either the pool of blood that we've all seen in movies, or (in the case of a punctured artery) spurts of blood.

I'm going to change that section to talk strictly about CPR, and add a new section on the four hurry cases. -Smack 18:46, 10 Aug 2003 (UTC)

There are a lot more than "FOUR" hurry cases. Go read medical emergency. I have tried to avoid specific and in some cases copyrighted training recommendations.
Anyone who thinks that tourniquet is within the scope of first-aid should go read that article.
ABC stands for "Airway Breathing Circulation" without the "s" you suggest, which sounds like a local training mneumonic.
Airway and Breathing are different. You must make sure the person has a patent airway, typically through head-tilt chin-lift if they are on their back. Then and only then can you see if they're breathing. Circulation applies with equal force to both cardiac arrest and severe bleeding.
Severe bleeding can be missed in a hasty survey, but that statement needed reworking anyway. Internal injuries and bleeding can kill just as quickly as bleeding outside the body, and often first-aiders don't notice until too late.
Thanks for your input but be very careful not to add anything that you are not 100% sure of. This article continues to need reorganization and pruning into sub-articles. clarka 24 Aug 2003
Thanks for your input, but please indent it so that it doesn't blend together with mine.
This article is schizophrenic. It needs to be split into a proper Wikipedia article on one hand, and a Wikibooks module on the other. As far as the number of hurry cases is concerned, the article should list all of them, but the module should list only those few that are within the purview of casual first-aiders. Since I'm still on hiatus, I'll leave the splitting task up to someone else. -Smack 03:29, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)
Fixed link to Wikibooks above. Started new First Aid textbook at [1]. Beginning synthesis of related articles. Added link to Wikibook from article.clarka 23 Sept 2003


Commerical external links

I've removed these two links:

  • [http://www.first-aid-product.com/ First Aid Kits & Supplies]
  • [http://www.cpr-training-classes.com/ American CPR Training - CPR & First Aid Training]

They were added by an anonymous user (68.7.15.227), removed by me, then added by the user again. As far as I can tell they are links to commercial sites and as the user has contributed only those links to wikipedia, I think they are just spam. If the user wishes to add them to the page again could they please explain here their justification for doing so? Tjwood 17:40, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)