Talk:First Punic War

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the following WikiProjects:

Military history WikiProject     (Rated Start-Class) This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. Additional information and associated task forces: This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-Class status: Referencing and citation: criterion not met Coverage and accuracy: criterion met Structure: criterion met Grammar: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met This article is not currently associated with a task force. To tag it for one or more task forces, please add the task force codes from the template instructions to the template call. WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome     (Rated Start-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Classical Greece and Rome. To participate, improve this article or visit the project page for more information. Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the assessment scale. Top This article is on a subject of Top-importance within classical antiquity. WikiProject Italy (Rated Start-Class) First Punic War is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale. (If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.) Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale. WikiProject Portugal     (Rated Start-Class) Portugal Portal First Punic War is part of WikiProject Portugal, a project to improve all Portugal-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Portugal-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance for this Project's importance scale. Portugal To-do: edit purge Improve to Featured status Portugal Improve Os Lusíadas Coat of arms of Portugal More... Review Category:History of Portugal: lots to remove there Requests See Requested articles Assess Help assessing articles. Need images Translate from Portuguese Wikipedia Wikify Vote: Watch this list — Edit this list WikiProject Spain (Rated Start-Class) Spain Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project. Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale. Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the importance scale.

A line in Land Warfare needs editing but I can't decide what the paragraph intends. The line is:

"To the end of the conflict (249 BC), Carthage sent general Hamilcar Barca (Hannibal's father) to Sicily."

This should read either

1. "Towards the end of the conflict, ..." i.e. just pointing out the timeline;

or

2. "To end the conflict, ...", i.e. implying that Carthage's action was intended to stop the conflict.

--Air 10:00, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

---

Panormus was conquered in 254, and not in 251.

moved comment by anonymous editor.Wandalstouring 08:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Barca and Ships 2 Reverted edit 3 Corrected factual errors in "Beginning" section 4 Copy Paste 5 Under the sea in corvii 6 games 7 Images 8 The Actuall Army 9 Some notes about the First Punic War 10 Deleted doubtful general "Bostzer" 11 Demagogues 12 Unfinished Sentence

[edit] Barca and Ships

Air

The Edit on Barca is fine "toward the end...",”to end the conflict" would suggest rather more decisiveness then Carthage ever showed.

I would like to see the ship crew number (in the casualties section) altered; it’s wildly out of touch with reality. A 5th century Athenian Trieres would have had about 170 crewmembers, and the Athenians were famous for deploying only a skeleton crew of marines. The standard ship-of-the-line for both Rome and Carthage was a Quinquereme (or Penteres), The crew of which could range from 300 to over 400 (in any case much more then 100).

conon394

[edit] Reverted edit

I have reverted this edit by a user who has a history of hoaxing. Please check if it's correct. Conscious 12:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Check Polybius' history on the matter. It looks correct - Vedexent 12:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually - it should be 3200 or 1000 extra talents, not both. - Vedexent 12:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Corrected factual errors in "Beginning" section

The initial power struggle in Sicily involved attempts by Syracuse and Carthage to dominate the northeast portion of the island, including Messina. Hiero of Syracuse first attacked before he was elected tyrant, and Carthage intervened to prevent the victory of their rival. Messina turned to Rome later, hoping for more reliable protection. The prior text merged the separate assaults of Hiero and confused the dates.

--StephenMacmanus 10:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The third treaty between Rome and Carthage should be quoted. Wandalstouring 14:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copy Paste

The background section is basically a copy paste of this site http://www.crystalinks.com/punicwars.html Ciriii 22:22, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

and contains major errors Wandalstouring 15:47, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

the indicated site, however, is a copy of Wikipedia - and not the other way round --217.229.94.149 16:45, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Under the sea in corvii

I base the 270/100K number on Dupuy; he, however, puts it in 256. Trekphiler 00:38, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] games

Really niece someone made pictures about these events, but it is too obviously based on a game and very much from a Roman perspective. In the last image "end game" is not really needed. Source these images please. Wandalstouring 20:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Images

i threw on the GFDL statement for the images. I am a little new to this whole thing. I made the images, with info from Lazenby's book. He did not do the analysis, just listed when events happened. Is my listing correct?

OK, first of all sign your comments with four ~ (like this ~~ ~~, but without the space. It is converted into your signature Wandalstouring 11:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC))

Your listing seems OK so far, I didn't read Lazenby's book. An important site and event is missing for example, Mount Eryx, where a very rich temple and a fortress stood. Both fell into Roman hands when the Gallic garrison switched sides. It is a major event, for its strategical importance and the cultural importance of the temple, as well, as the financial for Rome. Furthermore you could add some info on the sieges of Agrigent, Panormus and Lilybaeum. For the battles at land and sea it would be a nice idea to use smaller signs, like crossed swords and give perhaps commanders and troop numbers.

Major Problem: You needed a map to create these images. where is the map of Sicily from? The point is, this is a derivate work, but as long as the original work has some copyrights reserved, these apply to all its derivates. In conclusion you are not allowed to publish this on wikipedia if the legal owner of the original work did not allow its free use in public domain. Wandalstouring 11:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I created the map of Sicily myself. It is an outline of the island, with modern roads (to show approximate transit areas). The maps did not come from Lazenby. Were the maps what you were refering to as 'derivative work', or the text in general?Birdman93 07:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Main problem was the map itself, as long as you do not quote Lazenby word for word there is no copyright issue, just mention him in the image description as your source: this map is based on Lazenby blabla.

(there are othe historians, who would tell the events differently, so you make the POV clear)

The header "End game" in the last map is still required to be changed. Wandalstouring 16:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I will make the changes. Give me a day or 2; I am off to work now, but will try to get it done tonight.Birdman93 09:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Actuall Army

I would quite like to know what the army actually consisted of. Mercenaries and ect. But I think that they should the battles in better details.Like the actuall units

We lack quite a lot of information for this and have only reports from their respective opponents. Wandalstouring 13:45, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some notes about the First Punic War

Livy [1.19]..."Thinking that the ferocity of his subjects might be mitigated by the disuse of arms, he built the temple of Janus at the foot of the Aventine as an index of peace and war, to signify when it was open that the State was under arms, and when it was shut that all the surrounding nations were at peace. Twice since Numa's reign has it been shut, once after the first Punic war in the consulship of T. Manlius, the second time, which heaven has allowed our generation to witness, after the battle of Actium, when peace on land and sea was secured by the emperor Caesar Augustus."... Wandalstouring 19:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted doubtful general "Bostzer"

I suspect this person doesn't exist. Besides the fact that his name just looks wrong for a 3rd century BC Carthaginian, I can't find any independent references for him. Other than mirrored copies of this article, the only reference I did find is from the "Spotlight on Games" website which includes military games. I don't think it counts. ;-)

If anyone knows a reliable source for this guy, feel free to restore him to the list.

StephenMacmanus 09:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

There exists a general Bostar, he is famous for being extremely stupid and giving away the hostages held at Sagunt(Polybious). Possibly this is his name in a non-English spelling. Wandalstouring 19:58, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demagogues

So, could anyone explain why "incompetent leaders" was reverted to "demagogues"? Nobody understands this expression in this context, and furthermore it has got a negative connotation. --217.229.68.147 22:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

demagogues is totally out of place. bad leaders is questionable, shit happens in war and even generals like the later Hannibal were almost wiped out because someone made an error, so I will rephrase it to 'bad weather and unfortunate tactical dispositions before battle'. Wandalstouring 18:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unfinished Sentence

In the section "Beginning", this sentence isn't finished:

Most likely unwilling to see Carthaginian power spread further over Sicily and get too close to Italy, Rome responded by entering into an alliance with (?)

Isn't it supposed to be "the Mamertines"? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.103.2.8 (talk) 03:08, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

the whole sentence needs a source because no ancient writer tells us about such motives. Wandalstouring 07:27, 30 June 2007 (UTC)