Talk:First Lady

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see also Talk:First Lady of the United States

Contents 1 Criticisms 2 Removed 3 Hillary Clinton 4 Term inappropriate outside a US context 5 This article needs some serious work to make it accurate 6 Is there such a term as First Gentleman? 7 Revised definition 8 Canada 9 "recognized" function? 10 Great Britain 11 Clean up 12 Proposal 13 Only U.S. 1st Ladie ListeD 14 Spotlight 14.1 Notable First Ladies 14.2 Possible sources 14.3 Duties and ceremony 14.4 Intro 15 First Gentleman 16 Another Photo, PLEASE

[edit] Criticisms

Shouldn't there be a section on criticism of the title and role - like it makes sexist assumptions, or that a person shouldn't have, or be expected to have, a title or to fulfill certain functions on the basis of his/her spouses job ?

Two questions:

1. What does (the first part of) this sentence mean: "Although the words 'first lady' were previously used in combination to refer to women..."? Isn't that obvious? Has it ever been used "in combination" to refer to men?
2. The article doesn't explain the etymology of the title. Why "first"? Was it taken from "prima donna"? If so, how are the pseudo-official "duties" of the First Lady "prime roles" in, say, the USA? Especially since it is not an elected position; if you can even call it a "position".

I find the title a bit of a misnomer and am opposed to its use at all. But that's just me. --Thorwald 17:42, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Thorwald. I will try to answer your two questions:

1. I think the sentence could be phrased better. What the sentence is trying to say is that if you do an exhaustive search of literature, you can find the words "first lady" together before those words were used as a phrase in the United States. However, it was in the United States that the words were first used as a phrase to refer to the wife or hostess of the President. Here is an example, from the Memoirs of Marie Antoinette, of these words used together:

Madame de Misery, Baronne de Biache, the Queen’s first lady of the chamber, to whom I was made reversioner, was a daughter of M. le Comte de Chemant, and her grandmother was a Montmorency.

2. The etymology of the title is explained more at First_Lady_of_the_United_States. The precise origins are fuzzy, as the phrase emerged from popular culture (and was not "created" by the government. I suggest reading First_Lady_of_the_United_States to see if that helps.

As this article refers to the use of "First Lady" everywhere, and not just in the United States, I'm afraid I can't judge if it should rightly be called a "position". - O^O 01:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

I have removed the following

In constitutional monarchies, since the queen fills some of the roles of a first lady, the term Second Lady may be used for the Prime Minister's wife.

It is complete cobblers. Firstly the line mixes up queens consort and queens regnant. Seconly there is no such thing as a Second Lady in that context. Where prime ministers' wives are called anything, it is usually first lady and that is purely a tabloid press name, never used officially. FearÉIREANN 01:40, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Similarly, the wife of the German chancellor is sometimes referred to in the media (tongue in cheek) as "first lady". Should this kind of press adoption of official titles be discussed in the article?—Eloquence

Googling around, I have found that Second Lady has been occasionally used for the Vice President's wife. But the use for PM's wives seems to be jocular. -- Error 02:01, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Hillary Clinton

Is it not an arguable opinion to consider Hillary Clinton a famous first lady? Was she any more famous than some of the other first ladies of history? I think that she isn't and that her name should be removed. MattSal 21:41, Dec 18, 2003 (UTC)

After all she's the only US first lady with a realistic chance to become president herself. And one of very few first ladies to become senators. I think this makes her quite significant. I'd even state that in Europe she is the only US first lady most people have ever heard of, exept perhaps for Jackie Kennedy.

-- Imladros 02:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of wether you like her or not, she should be in here. She has been a huge part of history in both good and bad ways; she is the first first lady to hold public office in the US, was the first one to be appointed to official positions to create policy, as well as the first to be suppeanaed by a grand jury, and also the 2nd to be an official U.S. Rep. to the U.N. (after Eleanor Roosevelt). She is one of the most powerful women in the world, and she could be the most powerful person in the world come Jan. 20, 2009. I couldn't believe it, but she also appeared in world history books for her work on health care and diplomatic missions, ect. During her tenure she represented the U.S. in about 100 countries abroad by herself. If anyone needs to be taken away, its Babs and Laurie Bush - What Did They Ever Do? Keep Betty Ford, Nancy Reagan, Eleanor Roosevelt, Rosalynn Carter, Jackie BKO - they were incredible. But for God's sake, post some from some other nations!

[edit] Term inappropriate outside a US context

"First Lady" is a United States term which is inappropriate when applied to other countries, whatever role the spouses of married Heads of State and/or Government may or may not exercise in the public life of those countries. The term should be reserved for use in the United States context only. -- Picapica 13:59, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

"First Lady" is an unofficial term and as this is being used in Germany as well, so it's not all US. -- Imladros 02:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This article needs some serious work to make it accurate

This article is not factual and it needs to be rewritten.

The term "First Lady" is a British term that has been incorrectly applied in the United States of America. Simply put, when the king is unmarried, ie no princess consort, and his mother (Queen Dowager) is deceased, the wife of his eldest living brother (Duchess) becomes First Lady of the Realm because she is the first lady in the processessional line. By being the First Lady of the realm, she enjoys the perquisits that come with the job, but she doesn't take the title of First Lady because she has her own and doesn't need any others. Now I am unsure if there are no wives of the Dukes if the eldest Pricess (sister of the King) would take the position. Of course if the King marries, then his wife joins him in the processional, and therefore there is no First Lady of the Realm.

While the earliest uses in the United States seem to date to Dolly Madison, the term wasn't betsowed upon the Presidents wife until Rutheford B. Hayes started calling his wife Lucy Webb Hayes "First Lady". By the way, the wife of the President is officially (in current respects, according to US State Department protocol) Mrs. George W. Bush - Laura Bush is NEVER officially introduced at State Functions as the First Lady because it is not a Government title, and she receives no salary.

In any event, this article is deserves to have correct information by someone who who is better versed in the matter then the one who wrote it. Stu 02:44, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

The speculation that the origins of "first lady" (as a title) are British or French is something that directly conflicts with all the research I've seen on this. Can someone provide references for use of "first lady" as a title outside the United States before 1849? -O^O

O^O - What sources have you checked in all your research? I'm interested in finding out where you have looked. BTW, I believe that the First Lady articles document the use of the term in both Great Britian (most notably Burke's Peerage) and France Stu 02:55, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Is there such a term as First Gentleman?

I did some research online (which I understand is not the last word for verifiability) to try and find if the term First gentleman is something that is in common usage since User:159753 added it in today stating that the term is isued in Finland and in Great Britian. So far I've just run A9, Yahoo! and Google and am not finding anything regarding Finland. Has anyone else everheard of this being used as a common moniker? Stu 20:36, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

The term "First Gentleman" is a recent American invention, coming from the late 1990's and early 2000 to give a PC term for the husband of a female president. The origin is from the term that what Bill Clinton will be called, if Hillary Clinton becomes Madame President of the USA, plus also it comes from the ABC programme Commander-in-Chief where President Mackenzie Allen's husband Rod Calloway is called the First Gentleman.

Dr. Pentti Arajärvi is usually considered to be the just Madam President Halonen's spouse. [1]

Please note that when someone writes First Gentleman in the search box thay come to this page. 159753 15:59, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Em, the term is First Gentleman is used for the husbands of the Governors of Arizona, Louisiana and Michigan. The Governors of the Utah and Kansas used the terms First Lad and First Dude. One thing the term First Gentleman, is used for the title of Jose Miguel Arroyo the husband of the Philippine president, Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo.

See: Talk:First_Lady_of_the_United_States#Hypothetical_female_pres. 159753 17:54, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Then if that is the case it needs to be cited with information that is verifiable. But the examples given of Finland and Ireland apparently didn't hold water. However the issue really seems to be the inference that it is a foregone conclusion that this will be the term used in the instance of a female President's husband AND whether the term should be in this article or its own. Stu 02:49, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

According to Fins, Dr. Pentti Arajärvi is officially referred to as Dr. Pentti Arajärvi, not the First Gentleman (a term that I find higly affected). We've already established that Dennis Thatcher was not the First Gentleman of Great Britian. My point is, that if this is an article on "First Lady" why at all does it delve into "First Gentleman" at all? Afterall, if it merits inclusion in First Lady, wouldn't the logical progression be to Wikilink it to an article of its merit. If it can't stand under its own merit, does it deserve a mention in this article? Stu 00:44, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Quick response to your "does it deserve a mention" question. If I understand you correctly, you are proposing that either "first gentleman" have an article of its own, or it be dropped from this article. IMHO, it is a fairly accepted part of the wikipedia way that when a topic deserves a paragraph or so, but not an entire article, it is covered in the most closely related article. Perhaps first gentleman should simply redirect to here? Notwithstanding the above, usage of the terms "first lady" and "first gentleman" outside America aren't something I'm particularly going to get involved in editing over (other than the etymology, of course). -O^O

Neither Nick Robinson nor Martin McAleese, the husbands of the last or current presidents of Ireland, were ever called First Gentleman. FearÉIREANN\^{(caint) 00:51, 8 November 2005 (UTC)}

I just added some citations for First Gentleman. I don't think the subject is large enough to merit its own article, at least not at the present time. IronDuke 06:08, 14 November 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't the title be First Lord, as opposed to First Gentleman, going by the meanings of the terms and the history and reasons for the title being First Lady?

If Hillary Clinton runs for President and wins, will Bill be the first gentleman?--Chili14 17:59, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

If it happens in 2008, we'll find out officially in 2009. Otherwise, it's just speculation. Currently, there is no male equivalent for First Lady in the United States since there has been no husband of the President yet. B.Wind 23:22, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

As I understand the issue, even if Hilary Clinton were to be eleceted, we still would not have an answer to the question of what to call the husband of a female President. Since Bill Clinton is a former President of the US himself, his title would always be Mr. President. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.143.144.129 (talk) 19:41, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revised definition

It seems to have escaped notice that O^O expanded the definition on January 19, 2006 of "first lady" from female spouse of a head of state to that of an elected head of government. This means that a number of previously "failed" first ladies can now be reinstated eg Lisbet Palme, Cherie Booth, Norma Major and Audrey Callaghan. Here goes!Phase1 23:52, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Are the examples of the term being used for spouse of head of government that's not head of state? The term is an extension of the concept of First Citizen, sometimes used as the title of head of state of a republic. It's never used in monarchies like the UK or Canada. Peter Grey 02:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Canada

The only time I ever hear the spouse of the Canadian Prime Minister referred to as the "First Lady" is in American news reports. Google turns up few domestic instances of its use. Fishhead64 22:19, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

In Canada, we already have a queen. We don't need to invent one every four years as do some 'other' countries. Indeed, attempting to find a role model that the peasants and bourgois can admire other than a God-given regent is an unfortunate yet necessary function for a country that forsook its imperial and monarchical heritage through sedition in 1776. First Lady, First Family, Fisrt Daughter, First Gardener, First Puppy, First Poopy, - good gracious when will it be the LAST? God Save Us All (And The Queen too!)

[edit] "recognized" function?

The article says:

In many countries (such as the United Kingdom), the Prime Minister's spouse has no recognized function, duties or title, and the term is not used. In Commonwealth Realms the closest equivalent is the Viceregal Consort, the husband or wife of the Governor General (who can in turn be male or female).

That could lead the reader to suppose that in the United States the First Lady has "recognized" functions or duties. What does that mean? Certainly the president's wife does not have official functions or duties, just as the British prime minister's wife does not. Her position as hostess of the White House is unofficial, based on custom and not on law. No such customs pertain to the British prime minister's wife, not because of any less official status (she has none and the president's wife has none), but because such ceremonial functions are already fulfilled by the monarch. Michael Hardy 02:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Great Britain

I removed the Great Britain section, for two reasons.

• Great Britain hasn't existed as a country since 1801, and none of the examples predate this
• The term First Lady has never been used in the UK, except possibly as satire. Indeed, the only time I have ever seen it used myself was here, where the point was made that the UK doesn't have one!

It was immediately reverted. I'm going to remove it again, if you object then could we please discuss it here rather than getting into a revert war.

Furthermore, the cleanup tag was removed at the same time. I don't see how anyone could object to the article in it's current state being called a list, so I'm adding that back in too. Modest Genius ^talk 21:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up

Hi everyone. I added and removed some major things to this article, such as the red-linked First Ladies, who do not belong on a list of "Notable First Ladies" if there isn't even an article for them. I also added some names, and deleted some. I fixed up the listy prose, and rewrote it in paragraph form. I got rid of the parenthetical statments, which are harder to read. I found the real "root" of the title First Lady, added it, and cited it. I'd say that I've done a lot of good in helping this article. Feel free to add, or slightly change. Happyme22 19:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal

I would like to make a proposal, but before I add it to the article, I want to make sure I have consensus (it is a serious edit). I would like to slim down the list of first ladies to the ones that actually used the title, i.e. the American ones, perhaps others, and provide a description of those and scratch the others. There is, after all, a list of first ladies article where similar information is given. Again, anyone may state their opinion here, as I don't want to start an edit war because there is no consensus. Thanks, Arknascar44 15:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Only U.S. 1st Ladie ListeD

Y r there only US First Ladies listed?

[edit] Spotlight

To-do:	edit · history · watch · refresh
Non Political Usage Section Cite everything in typical citation format Check the references to make sure they are reliable and accurate Major cleanup and expansion on the Duties and ceremony section Globalize origination section See Also section should be fixed up Run through Special:Whatlinkshere/First_Lady and fix links (say if it should link to First lady of the US)

[edit] Notable First Ladies

The section was removed, If we can find some sources we can incorporate some as examples. But the idea of "notable" is very biased, how do we know which ones are notable?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Eagle 101 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Possible sources

• Maven's Word of Day, First Lady

[edit] Duties and ceremony

While the traditions and expectations of a first lady vary by country and have changed significantly over time, they typically include responsibilities such as hosting receptions at the executive residence, advocating on behalf of public causes and charities, and running state functions and other duties. {{fact}}

• Kind of a no brainer, first ladies in various cultures will obviously have different duties. If we can find a secondary source for this, go ahead and re-add. By secondary source I mean something that compares the various culture's first ladies. Not us finding primary sources and drawing this conclusion. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 19:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

Though the term first lady is rarely an official office of the state,{{fact}} several First Ladies have exerted considerable power and influence over the course of government despite the lack of a legal mandate, such as Edith Wilson, wife of Woodrow Wilson, and Henriette Conté, the first wife of Lansana Conté. Others such as Hillary Clinton, Imelda Marcos or Sonia Gandhi have gone on to win political power in their own right, while others, such as Argentine Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, held office prior to becoming First Lady. Some others, including Isabel Peron and Janet Jagan, have become president themselves.{{fact}}

• Please note that we were not able to find sources for this. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 21:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Gentleman

First Gentleman should be merged into this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.142.62.78 (talk) 23:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

The day the United States OF America elects a woman like Hillary Clinton to be its leader is the day you'll all have to refer to Bubba Bill as a "gentleman," as ludicrous and laughable a prospect as there ever was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.59.9.52 (talk) 20:36, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

That comment has no place here. Your comment is the reason that the Wikipedia "user-edit" system is fundamentally flawed, and it's the reason that people will soon look at this "free encyclopedia" as being "worth every penny they paid for it" unless we see some serious changes. By the way, Hillary Clinton was not even mentioned in the comment you replied to, you complete moron. Take it to a political forum, for God's sakes. I believe the first commenter is correct, I second the idea for merging "First Gentleman" here. 72.213.129.138 (talk) 04:58, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Another Photo, PLEASE

It has occurred to me that this article refers to ALL spouses of heads of state, not just the United States. There is actually a separate article for First Lady of the United States. Yet, both of the two photos we have here feature Laura Bush. This seems a bit biased and imbalanced. Also realizing that Laura Bush may be the current First Lady of the United States, but in general she is not that exciting compared to – say – Betty Ford, Eleanor Roosevelt, Nancy Reagan, or Hillary Clinton from a historic perspective. Would it be possible to remove one of the Laura Bush photos, and possibly add photos of other current and historic first ladies throughout the world? 72.213.129.138 (talk) 05:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)