Talk:Firebending/Archive 2

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Xingyi or Xsing Yi?

An anonymous user said they pronounce the Xingyi boxing style like "Xsing Yi" on the show (see the Styles section of the page). The extra "s" is not needed because the "X" is pronounced with a hard "s" sound. I hope the "Xsing Yi" spelling is not based upon what the user 'thinks it sounds like'. I only know two spellings for this word: "Xingyi" (pinyin) and "Hsing I" (wade-giles). I believe a misspelling will lead people to believe it's a different style.(Ghostexorcist 21:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC))

Keep in mind that the information was acquired through reading, not hearing. Just spell it the way they provide and give the link to the page for the martial art it's referring to, like what was done with the others. 71.163.209.94 December 2006 (UTC))
So this "Lost Scroll" actually spells the style as "Xsing Yi"? I think the "Lost Scroll" citation should be elongated. Who was the author/editor; when was it written; was it published inside of a certain magazine' if it was from the internet, what is the link and does it provide it's sources?
Does this “Lost Scroll” actually mention Xingyi, Southern Dragon Claw and Norther Shaolin? The only reason I ask is because I’ve seen the Nickelodeon shorts showing what styles they used for each form of bending and Xingyi and Dragon claw were never mentioned, just Norther Shaolin. Also, does the scroll actually describe the styles like it does on the page?
  • Xsing Yi - The style blends strikes from the classic "Seven Stars": hands, feet, elbows, hips, knees, shoulders, and crown.
  • Southern Dragon Claw - Mirroring a dragon swooping down on it prey, the form contains close-range techniques for seizing and holding, primarly utilizing the hand.
  • Northern Shaolin - Based on the style developed ancient Chinese Shaolin monks, this is a so-called "long-fist" style which doesn't use the fist at all. Instead, it puts emphasis on kicking over hand-to-hand fighting. The kicks are extended as far as physically possible while still compensating for balance.
Northern Shaolin does indeed use the fist, as well as the leg. Whoever wrote that has no idea what they are talking about. If it doesn't describe them thusly in the publication, the info needs to be rewritten! Besides, even if it does, it's still wrong. That whole "Northern martial arts uses legs and Southern martial arts uses fists" phrase is a myth.(Ghostexorcist 23:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC))
The following comes from the book Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo:

Northern versus Southern

This scheme is mostly used in reference to Shaolin systems. The motto of this scheme is “Northern Legs, Southern Fist.” What the scheme says is that southern Shaolin systems have better, more developed hand techniques and far less of an emphasis on kicks and other leg maneuvers. Southern Shaolin systems are supposed to be characterized by their deep and stable stances and a focus on lots of different hand formations and methods of hand use. In contrast, the Northern Shaolin systems are supposed to have a wider range of kicks, be more acrobatic, with higher stances but with less developed hand techniques.
The basis for this scheme is the supposed geographical differences between the north and the south. The north was stereotyped as being little more than wide open spaces with the major mode of transportation being walking or horses. The south was stereotyped as being confined in the sense that the topography was broken up by rivers, rice fields and mountains with the major mode of transportation being boats.
The problem with this scheme is that the exceptions swallow the rule. There are so many systems that do not follow their geographic stereotypes that the classification scheme becomes useless. The other problem with the scheme is that proponents of northern systems are offended by the idea that their systems are light or weak on hand work; in a similar vein, proponents of southern systems take umbrage at the idea that the footwork and kicks of their systems are deficient in comparison with their northern counterparts.
Many Taiwanese I have talked to have a more complicated scheme that talks about systems that come from the north, south and central areas of China. This scheme is not based on the idea that each of the geographic areas has a forte, but rather is simply based on the area of origin for each system. It stops short of making any implication that systems originating from a certain area share any regional characteristics.
(Ghostexorcist 02:24, 26 December 2006 (UTC))
I don’t care what it says in the book. I just googled “Xsing Yi” and it has 204 hits. Now “Xing Yi” has 1,760,000 hits and “Hsing I” has 1,270,000 hits. I think the most popular spelling needs to be used since Xsing Yi is not a well known spelling. Before anyone says anything, I'm not trying to start a fight.(Ghostexorcist 01:52, 26 December 2006 (UTC))

Just like the show, I’m sure the writers of the “Lost Scroll” would have consulted a martial arts expert before they described the styles practiced by the Fire Nation. That having been said, the Styles cited as coming from the Lost Scroll are horribly incorrect. The inaccuracies are so bad that it might lead some to believe the material therein was placed on this page by a user who thought they recognized a certain style during an action sequence and then wrongly cited there opinion as coming from this Lost Scroll book. For instance, the page originally said Northern Shaolin “doesn't use the fist at all”. But after presenting a passage from a martial arts book which refutes this claim, an anonymous user erased the quote from above. Sounds kind of fishy doesn’t it? I would like to see an exact transcription (cited in full) of the page which holds these styles. If no transcription is provided that supports the cited styles, I will erase every style except for Northern Shaolin, which is the style used according to this Nickelodeon short. Now after watching that, do you remember hearing ANYTHING about Xingyi or Dragon Claw? (Ghostexorcist 03:46, 29 December 2006 (UTC))

Which is it?

I just deleted an uncited sentence from the “fighting styles” section. It reads, “Firebending is based on the Northern Shaolin style of Kung Fu with a dash of Northern 7 Star Praying Mantis.” But in the “Styles” section it says Xingyi, Southern Dragon Claw and Northern Shaolin. So which is it? We know that Northern Shaolin is the established style, but what about Praying Mantis, Xingyi and Southern Dragon Claw? Somebody needs to make up their mind. (Ghostexorcist 17:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC))

I found the CORRECT citation for it the other day. Someone cited it as coming from the Nick Short showing which martial art was used for firebending. Well, it wasn't and I found the info on the avatarspirit.net page. (Ghostexorcist 21:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC))

The Lost Scrolls

Since we're basically just in the middle of a revert war right now, and these never end well, let's try having an actual conversation here, instead of just editing back and forth like children. Now, I admit right off the bat that I have not read the Lost Scrolls, I have no idea what their canon-level is, I haven no idea who the author is, and I had never even heard of them until I came to this page and started deleting them. However, that does not effect my point in the least: The reference note is inadequate. The reference states the title and the page number, and that's it. As I said back when I first began deleting the notes, they give no information on who wrote the book, who published it, or when it happened. In fact, it doesn't even say that it is a book, I'm operating purely on assumption on that point, The Lost Scrolls might very well be a newspaper article, or a web-site, or any of a dozen other things.

My point here is that all the statements claiming to be from The Lost Scrolls are improperly sourced and, as such, I will continue deleting them from the page for as long as I have to until they are properly sourced. That is Wikipedia policy, and is not our decision to make. Sorry for being so adamant, but The Lost Scrolls will stay out until they are properly credited. JBK405 08:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I'm still going to push for the removal of those points, even though I concede that they are now properly sourced. It's nothing personal, and I now will not act unilaterally or brashly (Since we're no longer in the area of "Wrong"), but it's of my opinion that The Lost Scrolls should not be in the article.

The information presented as originating in The Lost Scrolls is often in direct contradiction with other information in the article, from official sources and the show itself, and also makes little to no sense. To quickly run through them: Zuko showed absolutely no loss of power when he was underwater in Siege of the North, and there's no logical reason for a full moon to lessen a Firebenders power (This might be a misunderstanding of SotN, where the balance of power shifts to the Waterbenders because the full moon increases their powers, it doesn't suck away the Firebenders power). Plus, you quite often see Firebenders using Firebending in complete darkness, often as illumination; we've seen no loss of power just because they're indoors or underground, out of the sunlight. Firebenders have never even been implied to "draw" their energy from their surroundings, and comets are composed of ice, they don't give off heat (Especially not any heat detectable on earth). Finally, if the outside temperature actually had any effect on Firebending, wouldn't their attack on the North Pole, an arctic nation, have had some sort of effect? Apart from the normal lessening associated with night, there wasn't any impairement of their Firebending ability.

Unfortunately, logic is not what decides what is/is not on Wikpedia. As I myself said before, it's all about what can/can't be verified, and right now all this has a source. So, I question the sources canonicity. What relation do the books have to the show? Are they officially licensed? Are they co-authored by the shows creators/writers? Are they Nickelodeon products? What makes them count more than a fan run web-site filled with stories about Zuko and Katara getting it on? If somebody has them, please check to see if anywhere inside they mention where they're getting their info. JBK405 08:59, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Styles

The bit about Northern Shaolin is completely wrong, therefore I will continue to revert the information. Northern Shaolin uses an equal amount of fist and leg. Does this Lost scroll mention these styles word-for-word as you display them on the page? If so, the info is wrong and should not be used on the page.

There is no point in having the “Seven Stars” info on the page. As you said, Xingyi is one of many styles that use the seven parts of the body. So you could have mentioned any style then. Is Xingyi specificly mention in the book? This is the last time I’m going to ask you. It just sounds like you thought you recognized a certain move and wrongly cited your opinion as having come from the Lost Scroll book.

I will be contacting others on the avatar wikiproject in an effort to resolve this matter. If you do not reply or attempt to prove in some way that the info previously in the styles section is correct and continue to revert the page, I will look at your edits as vandalism and have the page semi-protected. This means that people with user accounts 4 days old or with anonymous users (that’s you) will NOT be able to edit the page. (Ghostexorcist 20:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC))

Lightning Photos

While they're nice, I feel it would be better if we actually had a shot of the lightning bolt being shot. The current ones simply show electricty generation. Thank you. (61.91.191.4 08:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC))

less lightning, more fire

It seems to me that there are too many pictures of Firebenders utilizing lightning on this page. There is only one image of any actual firebending, and it's not even that clear. There should be no more than one image of lighting (two could be stretching it) to show it's existance, and be kept in it's own section, and the rest of the article should have clearer shots of firebending, such as flames exiting the hands of the benders and such.--Piemanmoo 19:16, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

  • okay then--Piemanmoo 21:18, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I tried to add more firebending pictures, but one user keeps removing them M'kay 1. We didn't have to copy everything 2. Cutting back on images and that one doesn't do much plus it has no info 3. Conjecture That was the statement. I just put it on because I didn't want the image to become an Orphan. It doesn't do a good job of showing firebending, but it has to be a screen shot to be shown on wiki. According to this guy logic, I should remove all the lightning pictures except one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:121.jpg --Kolrobie 04:04, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

The article is very well collaborated! The lightening, is well balanced with the firebending pictures, but the lightening, is an advanced form of firebending, so please refrain from trying to change the pictures.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wongdai (talk • contribs)

It’s not even close to being balanced. It’s a 3 – 1 ratio of lightning pics vs. fire. I realize that lightning bending is an advanced skill, which means only a handful of people can do it. So the much larger majority of the people who can not do it should be represented. (Ghostexorcist 20:11, 8 May 2007 (UTC))

Lavabender

Ok, some firebenders and can bend lava, but lava is molten rock. Shouldn't Lavabending be done by Earthbenders then?

It's never been said that Earthbenders can't bend lava, unless I'm missing something the only people seen to bend lava have been Avatars, and they're Earthbenders by nature. Maybe that's the art that they're using (Though I concede that it has been implied to be firebending). JBK405 22:51, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that earthbenders can bend magma, but firebenders are able to bend it because in reality (as enforced by info from Iroh and others) they are energy benders, with heat/fire being the easiest form to manifest. If that is so (and there is only circumstantial evidence), then they be able to effect materials saturated with energy, such as lava. Just a thought that will hopefully be confirmed in season 3--Romulus 01:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I figured that they had "Lavabending" because it was cool, or that the Avatar was the only one who can do so. B.Lax 17:03, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

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They kinda established that only Avatars can bend lava, showing that Avatar in the vision when Roku explained the Avatar State to Aang making volcanoes erupt. Volcanoes erupt because of pressure deep within the earth. The vision implies that in the Avatar world volcanoes and lava = firebending, but realistically speaking firebending wouldn't be able to affect lava. Lava may be molten, but it is still rock and rock = earthbending. The most they would be able to do is draw the heat out of the lava (which is by no means bad if you think about it; you could melt a human with that heat o_o), which would subsequently cool it and turn it into normal rock (and we all know that normal rock = earthbending).

Who knows. Perhaps given lava's unique properties both firebenders and earthbenders can use it. Only time will tell. It would essentially be the same case as mud, which both earthbenders and waterbenders can use.

Psydon 13:55, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Notable Firebenders

Why aren't Kuruk and Yangchen listed as notable Firebenders? They were Avatars as well, if Aang who firebended twice in the series can be listed as notable Firebender so can Kuruk and Yangchen, that though little role in the A:EftSW were alseo Firebenders. 189.4.230.173 22:46, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Because simply having Firebended doesn't make them notable. Aang is notable because he's the star of the show, whereas Kuruk and Yangchen have only had what could loosely be described as cameos, without any dialogue or major action within the series itself. JBK405 03:41, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

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As the guy above me said, Aang is notable because he's the main character. Kuruk and Yangchen, who are minor characters, are Avatars, yes, which makes them firebenders. However, they are only firebenders BECAUSE they are Avatars. Kuruk is from the Water Tribes and Yangchen is from the Air Nomads. Roku is notable because he is from the Fire Nation, and thus naturally a Firebender anyway, regardless of his Avatar status.

Psydon 13:52, 10 June 2007 (UTC)


Its like that sludge both Toph and Kitara could bend in the drill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.118.144.236 (talk) 03:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Special Technique

I do not understand why the "Special techniques" section keeps on being deleted. Lightning and blue fire are both advanced (or special) techniques that not every firebender can do. Where is the problem here? (Ghostexorcist 19:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

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Perhaps the admins are having a hard time differentiating between the inherent sub-skill of Firebending and the special techniques, so they erase the latter.

Psydon 13:55, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Bending Arts Broken Down

Here's an old list-

Elemental art: Waterbending

Applications: Plantbending (water within; unofficial naming), ice- cloud-, steam-, snow-

True element special ability/sub-skill/trait/etc: Healing

Elemental art: Earthbending

Applications: Sandbending- (not like we haven't seen everyone do it), crystal, rock candy- (why not?), mud-, metal (using superhuman senses to locate and target trace amounts of earth present)

True element special ability/sub-skill/trait/etc: Magnetism

Elemental art: Firebending (believe or not, blue fire actually happens to be, fire)

Applications: lavabending (implied), smoke- (Iroh executes it in one of the trading cards)-, tea?-

True element special ability/sub-skill/trait/etc: Generating and/or redirecting lighting

Elemental art: Airbending

Applications: Soundbending (very unofficial naming; vibrations of air molecules, also is displayed on two of the tradingcards and later implied in Tales of Ba Sing Se by Aang), cloudbending, and it can do a bunch of other stuff due to being so dynamic and versitile.

True element special ability/sub-skill/trait/etc: Tis a mystery (i.e. creators haven’t thought it up yet).

Basically just add -bending to all that stuff. Why are they segregated in that particular fashion? Cause the creators say so. Father's Wish II 20 May 2007 (UTC))

I still fail to see why the section keeps on being deleted. Yes lightning is a sub-style of firebending and there are only a handful of people who can do it. Though blue fire is not as advanced, there are only a handful of people who can do it. The number of people who can actually perform it versus the larger majority who can't should be taken in to consideration. Therefore it is a special technique. I may not be able to respond promptly to any additional comments. (Ghostexorcist 19:15, 20 May 2007 (UTC))
I planned on listing blue fire under its own seperate special techniques section (little rewriting and a slightly better image to go with it would be good too). Note how I never said blue fire wasn't "special" (words are hard here), in fact I did quite the opposite and called it advanced. It just doesn't fall under the same category as lightning, is all. Father's Wish 20 May 2007 (UTC))
Next time, then, if you have such a problem with where somebody put their work, put it in a different section, but don't just delete it. That's just rude.
Now then, the way you've got it now, quite frankly, just looks silly. We should have blue fire on there, but giving its own full section like that is utterly pointless. Lightning and blue fire are both special firebending skills, there's no reason not to group them together. Granted, lightning is "special" in a different sense, but that doesn't mean it has to have its own section.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Thing is, it doesn't. Now that the Special Techniques section is there, more can be added to it. Like say, the Breath of Flame for starters. Its all about proper organization and classification, or whatever. And I'm sure you're aware that the thing isn't actually deleted and can be pulled back with a click of a button once everything's been straightened out, which was my plan all along. Anywho, to that point, should I go to the Waterbending and Earthbending page and rename the "Other Waterbending" and "Techniques" sections "Special Techniques" also or are we good to go? Father's Wish II
I have to agree with Fyre. The section has way too much empty space. The fire breath can only be done by Uncle Iroh right? It should only be mentioned if more than one person can do it. But Iroh has the market cornered on this skill. Since it's already mentioned on Iroh's page, there is reason to mention it here. (Ghostexorcist 20:06, 20 May 2007 (UTC))
No where does it say that only Iroh can do it, then there's the fact that we've seen Zuko, Ozai, and Avatar State Aang in a dream due the same. Keep in mind that we've only seen Azula do blue and that its already described under her page (which prior to revision looked like the dude pretty much copy/pasted it from, still kind does). We really shouldn't override accuracy and cram them all together just cause it seems the most convinient or cause it makes it look prettier. The main point is that its there as foundation, and more on firebending is sure to come forward, what with the fact that we are about to go into Book Three Fire hint hint. Father's Wish II
That makes sense, yeah. If its not there soon, though, the page needs to change, though, because it really does look bad right now.--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 20:09, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we get some citations for the fire breath section? All that would be needed is the name of the episode that all of the characters listed performed this skill. That way, people can look it up for themselves. (Ghostexorcist 19:22, 21 May 2007 (UTC))
M'kay. Father's Wish II 22 May 2007 (UTC))


BLUE FIRE??

Somebody put lightning as "blue fire" that can only be used by princess Azula! I changed it to lightning. If anyone doesn't like that they can change it. It needs to be edited a little bit.Thunderlad 16:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)Thunderlad

Sorry, but you're thinking of two completely different things. Blue firebending does exist in Avatar, and the section you edited deals with that. There's another section which deals with lightning. JBK405 17:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Firebender → Firebending —


Bending is a more logical title for content in these articles, as they describe the arts far more than the practitioners. Also discussed at: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Avatar: The Last Airbender#Bender or Bending? —--Fyre2387 (talk • contribs) 21:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.
  • Support- We're writing about what they do, not the they that's doing it. Keyblade Mage 00:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Keyblade Mage

Discussion

All four are already moved.