Talk:Fire Emblem/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Pretty good stuff- Daniel

I see this page has been vandalized somewhat -anon

Contents

Cleanup

This article is in dire need of cleanup.

I agree. Among other things, I don't think the 'favorite characters' list is necessary. Otherwise, this article has the approval of a true, blue FE freak. By de way, don't you think that Rebecca (from Rekka) falls under the category of Est as well? I'm going to add her anyway.

I took out the popular characters list and controversial characters list. They didn't seem to be serving a purpose. Honestly, people that haven't played the game aren't going to know who Canas is anyway. If you want to put it back in, have descriptions of all of the characters, not just two or three.

I would like to put tables of the characters, or put the characters in a "Cast" section in each article related to a specific Fire Emblem game. I am willing to put descriptions of Fire Emblem characters. Some characters are worth having a separate Wikipedia article, especially Ayra. I started that Fire Emblem character article, and Ayra is my favorite Fire Emblem character. I am the main editor of the Fire Emblem category of Wikipedia. Tedius Zanarukando 20 Apr 2005, 15:27 (EST).
You deserve a lot of credit for your dedication to these pages, Tedius, but this all brings up a very real question: considering that this is primarily an English language encyclopedia, and that the Fire Emblem series is relatively unknown to non-Asian audiences (though it's better known now than it once was, to be sure), one has to question the notability factor. There are a lot of characters from the series that U.S. and European gamers quite simply aren't going to know, or care, about. While including information on them is important, to be sure, it seems like much of it would be better suited to the articles regarding the games they appeared in. There was something of a similar discussion going on a while back over on the Final Fantasy VI page, with many suggesting that having seperate articles for every major character in the game was a bit overkill.
There's also the "Wikipedia is not..." business, and while you've clearly put a lot of effort into your contributions, it may almost be too detailed for a general reference encyclopedia. It's the sort of thing that is better suited, IMO, to a Wikibooks project (and, seriously, if there isn't one already, you should look into starting one).
All that being said, I should make clear that this is just an outsider's opinion. While I've played (and adored) Rekka no Ken, my experienc with, and knowledge of, the remainder of the series is a bit sparse. So I'm not going to start horning in on your territory, or whatever. But from the perspective of a reader of these pages, I would suggest what is currently there needs to be, well, "tightened up" a bit. It's far from hopeless, but it's all a bit of a sprawl, at this point. Just my two cents, though. Feel free to ignore me: most people do. ;-) – Seancdaug 02:08, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu has had a chance to be known to non-Asian audiences with the advent of console emulation, and a fan translation patch for the game exists. It will probably be one of the downloadable games on the Nintendo Revolution, and localization may be possible in that way. Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu became much more popular in the emulation audiences since the release of Super Smash Bros. Melee. I am also considering a request to have Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu to be represented in the upcoming Super Smash Bros. Revolution. I actually know more about Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu than Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 03:13, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)


Maybe cleanup the magic triangle more? Also, they may use the same system in Thracia 776 that was used in FE4. Not sure, though.

Light doesn't beat Dark in FE4. People only think that because of Narga's special effect.

And, it's said that there is a fan translation of FE6. Where's the link to this translation?

http://s7.invisionfree.com/FESS/ offers translations. Erre

Suggestion: in the Character Archetypes section, get rid of the redundancy. PLEASE. Every last description in that section includes a phrase along the lines of "The original Est character, Est herself," and it starts to feel repetitive and unneeded. Wouldn't adding a line to the effect of "Character archetypes share the name of the character who first filled that role in the original Fire Emblem" fulfill the same purpose?


I'm putting a cleanup tag there, this article is really really ugly and messy, specially when you put the whole game release description as a section. Please take a look at other big series, like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, their main articles do not have such a extensive game information like we have here, each game has a page. Also I'd like to propose a Template, like Template:Dragon Quest series, this will help the cleaning work greatly. I'm not cleaning since I'm not very knowledgeable about the Fire Emblem series, so I'll just point the way of to the success. And yes, at least one article per game, plus one more for character data, the popular and controversial characters can even make a return there. It's better to have it clean and modularized to later think about moving things to WikiBooks or etc. --ren 23:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I feel that the article has greatly improved in the past few months. Some sections were parsed into their own articles, the information on individual games has been cut down, and the general clarity has improved dramatically. Unless there are any objections, the cleanup tag can probably be removed at any time now. The article could still use tweaking here and there, but the dramatic overhaul phase is probably over. --Hailinel 18:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

We need to prune the mass number of External links, per WP:NOT - it's loaded with unnecessary links since all that's required are links relevant to the article and parts of it (External links should only be official sites and references). Right now, to me, it looks like a mere collection of links. The games areas need a little more summarisation (if not a removal of descriptions if there is an article that links to it), but otherwise the External links are the true problem. Just to note that if we complete creating articles for all the games we can likely remove the games and keep the info box to link to the games (this MUST be discussed though). --Anthony Jake La (Tetsuya-san; talk : contribs) 21:24, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
I created an article for FE6. I'll tinker with it a bit more before letting it go, but I think it's off to a good start. One more game to go. --Hailinel 22:49, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
FE3 now has an article, and so now all of the games have their own individual articles.--Hailinel 23:52, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

The Fire Emblem?

Is the actual Fire Emblem the same thing in every game, or is it a different object in each game? Moreover, is there a reference to a "Fire Emblem" in each game?

I ask because after beating Fire Emblem: The Sacred Stones, I have still seen no mention of the Fire Emblem in that game.

There is one, though it seems rather forced if you ask me. The Fire Emblem is stated to be another name for Grado's Sacred Stone, as shown in Ephriam's story path. --Tjstrf 5 July 2005 18:36 (UTC)
In FE1-3, the Fire Emblem is some sort of shield thing which Marth needs to use the Falchion, IIRC. Also in FE3:2 if all the orbs have been acquired it will kill all earth dragons on the field at the start of the turn. I think.
In FE4-5 there was a Flame Crest or something which was just the emblem of House Velthomer, but didn't have any affect on gameplay or the storyline. Some people say that it's the Fire Emblem, and some people say that it isn't, mainly since Fire Emblem always seems to be written as ファイアーエムブレム and it's written in Kanji instead in FE4.
In FE6-7 it's a treasure of Bern, needed to get the Sword of Seals and to unlock the throne room if it has been sealed. It's also part of the coming-of-age ceremony there, probably to stop people from ever selling it or something, which would leave the SoS unaccessible in times of trouble ._.
In FE8 it's Grado's Sacred Stone, which is the one which has Fomortiis' soul, which burns inside it.
In FE9... Not entirely sure. It drives almost anyone who is touching it insane, that's pretty much all I know. --Dark Twilkitri 6 July 2005 04:39 (UTC)
OK, thanks for clearing that up. That mihgt be good information to put on the main page, actually. --Tjstrf 6 July 2005 06:59 (UTC)
The Fire Emblem in FE9 is Lehran's Medallion. It has the soul of some demon in it, and touching it makes you crazy. The only people who can touch it are Mist and hed dead mom.

Individual pages for the games?

Just to say, I feel some of the section should be reduced to a brief summary for the games, while the game information goes into their seperate sections. - Tetsuya-san

Agreed. This series deserves to have seperate pages for each game. I can't believe Path of Radiance doesn't have its own page. It's such a big milestone in the series, jumping to 3D.

Path of Radiance definitely needs its own article now. The amount of information on the game in the main Fire Emblem article is starting to dwarf the other game sections, particularly with the recently added notes on the game's voice actors and such. Parsing the other games into their own articles also needs to be taken care of at some point. There's no need for detailed information on each individual game within the central article, but a simple paragraph summarizing each could work just as well. Hailinel 07:27, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

In FE7...

How do you figure that Ereshkigal is Nergal's wife's name? I have yet to see it mentioned, and I've played the game extensively. Erre

Ereshkigal is the wife of Nergal in mythology, not in the game.

Ah. Must've confused the two.

Hey, hey. I'd like to contribute an article on FE6's characters. In the middle of 19x at the moment, so I do know what I am writing about. Is anybody working on an article for FE6 at the moment? Wuzzuuuuuup 05:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Sorry!

I wasn't paying attention, and removed everything here. I apologize, and if there's a way to get it back, please do so, otherwise, well, sorry. Erre

Tada. --Dark Twilkitri 7 July 2005 09:16 (UTC)
  • Thanks Profusely* Erre


Banetou and Archetypes

Tedius, you can't just pull any FE1 character out of thin air and declare it an archetype. It has to be in use by people; no-one uses Banetou as an archetype with the possible exception of yourself; and no-one would ever think of comparing Deirdre to him o_O. As for the person who put Myrrh in; clearly he didn't even read the description ._.

Other invalid 'archetypes' that no-one uses:

  • Est
  • Julian
  • Rena
  • Ellis

Further, some of them are blatantly wrong.

I will move my earlier comments here because I can't be bothered rewriting them.

Kain and Abel. Do you realise that the original Kain, has LESS strength growth than Abel? A wonderful base for an archetype that supposedly relies on strength and defense.. They have equal defence growth also.
I'd barely call Corpul an 'Ellis'. And Renault's only really bad with his Magic stat.
The 'Gato' Sety is in FE5 for more than just the last chapter. Galzus joins later than he does, why isn't he here? Eyvel even later...

Notes on Kain and Abel

Firstly, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you have the two sets of characteristics mixed up? Isn't Abel, the typically green one, the one with an erudite personality, preferring to use swords and relying on SKL/SPD growth, and Kain the red one, preferring lances, STR/DEF, and with a relaxed/womanizing touch? Look into it. Also: The mixups in FE7 and FE8 are NOT the same. Sain and Kent are the picture of the Kain/Abel archetype with reversed colors, but Forde and Kyle maintain the correct colors while switching stats and weapons.

I can't say anything for the originals' personality... I'm not sure they even get any lines, in Ankoku at least. But as for growths - Kain has a 30% strength growth compared to Abel's 40%, and a 60% speed growth compared to Abel's 50%. They both have 20% defence growth, and Kain beats out Abel in Skill 60 to 50. That's in Ankoku and Monshou. As for items, Abel starts off with an Iron Sword and a Javelin whereas Kain starts with an Iron Sword and an Iron Lance.
Hey hey! Check this scan from the FE1 Manual: http://darktwilkitri.thegreatbeyond.net/FE1/fe1art1.png . Strangely enough, the spear-lovin' Abel has a sword, and the sword-swingin' Kain has a lance. Oh, what a turn up for the books is this ._. --Dark Twilkitri 09:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
Eerily enough, the captions say that the 'Black Panther' Abel is fast and skillful, and the 'Fierce Cow' Kain is strong, yet they don't grow that way in the game. I wonder what's up with that... --Dark Twilkitri 09:21, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
I don't have any experience with Gaiden so I can't say anything for it.
Seisen's ones are the opposite: Alec (green) is faster/more skillful than Noish (30 to 20, 40 to 30) whereas Noish is stronger and more defensive (40 to 30 in both cases). Alec is the womanizer in this lot. As for items, Alec has an Iron Sword and Noish has a Steel Sword. Neither 'favour' lances.
Thracia only has three cavvys, and none of them start with you. Carrion's on his own, so the only possibile option is Kein and Alva. I'm not sure on their colouring, though, and they start some way into the game anyway. Othin and Halvan aren't cavaliers so they're not even in the running.
Fuuin continues Seisen's growth trend, with the red (Allen) being stronger/more defensive than the faster/more skilled green (Lance). I don't think either of them is a womanizer... Saul is, but he's a priest. And they both start with one of each weapon type. I'm glad to see these character types are so based in reality so far.
Rekka... Kent (red) beats Sain in Speed, Skill... and Def. The green one is a womanizer again... (Lyn's Mode) Sain has only an Iron Lance (unless you're playing normal), but Kent has a sword and a lance, not just a sword.
Seima's red Forde and green Kyle. The four growths are almost back to the FE1 duo's style, the green with more strength and the red with more skill and speed, only the defence is in favour of green instead of being even. Not sure what items they start with. If anything, Forde likes women more than Kyle.
Souen's green Oscar and red... who? He doesn't come with any cavvy buddies. He comes with Bole, and he's red, but he's a fighter. Kevin is a red cavvy, but he comes later. And he's an Axe Knight anyway and couldn't favour swords if he wanted to. Makarov uses swords, but he comes even later and is orange/pink. Assuming we take Kevin, he wins in strength and def. So they've swapped colours again. And Oscar is superior in speed, but they have equal skill. Blah. No idea which one of them likes women the most. --Dark Twilkitri 11:40, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Jeigan & Ogma

Since Jeigan and Ogma have their own articles, perhaps the length of their sections here could be cut down to match the others.

Constant Mythology see-sawing

What is with people constantly changing the titles of the weapons around ._. The game says they are Fire Lance, Storm Blade, and Black Axe. Do you want pictures or what.

She may be called Guinevere in the legend, but we're talking about the game, not the legend, and it's spelt Guinivere there. Take it up with NoA~

And it's only not called Excalibur in FE7... --Dark Twilkitri 01:00, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Elliiiiiis (archetype)

Apart from the fact that she's a completely false archetype... but we'll neglect that for the time being.

Let's take a gander at the stats, shall we?

Priests in FE1 consist of Riff, Rena, Maria, and Ellis.

Riff's growths are

MHP: 20%, STR: 0%, SKL: 0%, WLV: 20%, SPD: 10%, DEF: 0%, RES: 0%, LUK: 10%, for a total of 60%.

Rena's growths are

MHP: 0%, STR: 0%, SKL: 0%, WLV: 30%, SPD: 20%, DEF: 0%, RES: 0%, LUK: 40%, for a total of 90%.

Maria's growths are

MHP: 0%, STR: 0%, SKL: 0%, WLV: 70%, SPD: 20%, DEF: 0%, RES: 0%, LUK: 30%, for a total of 120%.

Ellis' growths are

MHP: 80%, STR: 0%, SKL: 50%, WLV: 90%, SPD: 60%, DEF: 30%, RES: 0%, LUK: 80%, for a total of 390%.

"doesn't really make up for it if your characters are built up well enough" my foot. If your other priests are built up to 20/20 they still haven't grown a whit in most of their stats. --Dark Twilkitri 09:42, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

Ripping off from Final Fantasy.

Why hasn't this been addressed yet?

Because no one noticed or they didn't think it a sufficiently large issue to create a section on, maybe? Also, I've never even heard of this. Could you provide examples or something? --Tjstrf 00:28, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Because there's nothing to address? --Dark Twilkitri 10:48, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

ARTICLE IS HUGE!

This article should be majorly split up. Page for mythology references maybe? Anything, maybe separarte cast pages...whatever...but this page is frickin' huge. Do something. Flameviper12 14:31, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm trying. Article text needs to be summarised though. --Anthony Jake La (Tetsuya-san; talk : contribs) 01:58, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think that the article really needs to have sections devoted to each and every Fire Emblem game. Several of the games have individual articles that state much of the exact same information that's listed in their sections of this article, and so the central Fire Emblem article really only needs to focus on the core aspects of the series. Notes relating to the history-making characters can stay, but the history of the series itself can be summarized more succinctly without going into verbose details about each game. Otherwise, by the time another four or five games are released, the article will become even more of an unwieldy mess. For the games that don't have articles yet, those can be created, and the information that the main FE article contains can be transferred over to them with notations requesting that they be expanded upon. Then links to each individual article can then be grouped together in the central article.Hailinel 05:15, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Affinities and Supports

Half of the reason why Fire Emblem's good is the gameplay; the other half is the characters and the supports. I think there should be a section for these as well. I should know what I'm saying; I've played both games extensively. Izaak 5:03 AM (GMT+800) April 7, 2006

Template

Template:Fire_Emblem_series

v • d • e
Fire Emblem series
Titles
Characters
Marth  • in  Monshō no Nazo  • in  Seisen no Keifu  • in Thracia 776  • in Fūin no Tsurugi  • in Fire Emblem (video game)  • in The Sacred Stones  • in Path of Radiance  • in Radiant Dawn
Other

Any thoughts on putting this in under External links in the current game articles? It'll greatly assist with navigation and cleanups. --Anthony Jake La (Tetsuya-san; talk : contribs) 23:03, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

The link for Fire Emblem Gaiden points directly back to the main Fire Emblem article, rather than an article of its own. I'm not experienced enough to know how to fix that myself, yet.Hailinel 08:41, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Someone slipped a redirect to it. Simply click the link in "Redirected from: Fire Emblem: Gaiden" to go to the page without the redirect. --Anthony Jake La (Tetsuya-san; talk : contribs) 11:07, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. I went back and used information from the main FE article to create a proper Gaiden article.Hailinel 07:22, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Screenshots

Is it really necessary that each game have a screenshot? They seem to work just as well in the individual game articles, and there doesn't seem to be much purpose in including all of the images when most of them focus on the in-game menu for each game.Hailinel 20:45, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Merge

This content was on the Fiora page, but it seems to belong over here. I'm not familiar with the game, so I don't know where, if anywhere, this belongs. Kerowyn 08:41, 3 January 2006 (UTC) In Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken, Fiora is a Pegasus knight who has two sisters, Florina and Farina. They were retconned from the three pegasus knight sisters from Marth's Fire Emblem games, that are, Fire Emblem: Ankoku Ryuu to Hikari no Tsurugi and Fire Emblem: Monshou no Nazo. Fiora was retconned from Paora from Marth's Fire Emblem games. She is also one of Roy's possible mothers, along with Lyndis and Ninian. Florina was retconned from Est, and Farina was retconned from Catua.

I'm failing to see where the retconning actually takes place. The games involving Marth, Paora, Est, and Catua take place in a different universe from those involving Roy, Florina, Farina and Fiora. The two sets of characters are completely unrelated to each other.Hailinel 07:35, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

External links Cleanup

Just to note, that the list of external links are not only huge, but they consist of a many dozen fansites. Some are just irrelevant to the article, and go against Wikipedia:External links and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not. As WP:NOT states, Wikipedia articles are not mere collections of external links or Internet directories. Whether you feel this is a stupid policy or not, it is a policy and therefore needs to be followed. We can't build to it - we need to prune it. If we need links somehow, get a Web Directory for Fire Emblem sites, don't use this article. --Anthony Jake La (Tetsuya-san; talk : contribs) 21:35, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

I think we should clear out the "Forums" section in the links. They're really just fan discussion boards that don't offer much else.
Yes, what is probably the English-speaking world's largest collection of FE data and the home of the translation projects for most of the Japanese FEs is certainly offering nothing much else. Deh, I won't oppose it. --Dark Twilkitri 08:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I notice you removed sites "according to policy" but have put the site you own on the list, which is considered "self promotion" and vanity. I do not oppose your site being on the list, as in the future it may contain a good amount of information (though at the moment it doesn't). But please do not remove sites out of spite or stick you own there.
Didn't I just answer this on my talk page? Hmmm...
I believe that http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Fire_Emblem&diff=41946918&oldid=41914041 is the edit you are referring to. I don't recall living in the United Kingdom, sorry.
I am not seeing where 'spite' enters into anything. --Dark Twilkitri 23:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Too much Japanese

Throughout the Fire Emblem articles, games which have English titles are referred to by their Japanese titles. This directly contradicts Wikipedia policy: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). It's not an urgent issue, but I suggest that whenever one comes across such things, they swap the name for the English one. - 211.28.79.52 02:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It's being worked on. The problem is catching all of the references.--Hailinel 07:17, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow

Yeah...I thank you all for cleaning up this article.

I remember about 2 months ago...it was a SODDING MESS!

But I see some shiny happy people have cleaned it up.

Thanks,
 Flameviper12 18:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Should Sacred Stones be added to this?

  • Fire Emblem: Ankoku Ryū to Hikari no Tsurugi, Fire Emblem: Monshō no Nazo, and Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu are about a dark bishop resurrecting an ancient evil being. In Ankoku Ryū to Hikari no Tsurugi, Garnef strives to resurrect the dark dragon Medeus. In Seisen no Keifu, Manfroy strives to resurrect the Dark Lord Loputousu. Medeus and Loputousu both have an effect that reduces the victim's attack power.

While this theme is less obvious in Sacred Stones (at least in the beginning), it is in the games, in a way. Fomortiis certainly is an ancient evil being, and while he doesn't have an effect that reduces the victim's attack power, his equipment boosts his defenses by a good deal. Lyon isn't really a dark bishop but Riev, who works with him to revive Fomortiis, is surely dark, and surely a Bishop.

What do you think?

I think it's fair to add that. The circumstances aren't identical, but the pattern is still there. You can feel free to add it in.Hailinel 09:48, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Recurring themes clean-up

The recurring themes section desperately needs to be cleaned up. It's enough to say that certain themes are present in multiple games, but listing so many instances in detail becomes confusing jumbled together.--Hailinel 07:12, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Wyvern versus Dragon

The Wyvern article refers to Wyvern Riders in Fire Emblem. The article claimed that in the Japanese version, "Wyvern Riders" were called "Dragon Knights," but this was changed in the English translation to avoid confusion between the Dragon Knights' dragons and the dragons sealed up in the "Dragon's Gate." I've removed this information from the Wyvern article, but it should probably be added to the Fire Emblem article, if it's verifiable and makes sense to someone who knows anything about the game. --Quuxplusone 16:41, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Affinities Chart

Do we really need the affinity chart? Not only does it have little to do with the subject at hand, but it only really applies to a select few of the games. As it is, I don't see what it's doing other than taking up space. This isn't a FAQ.DMAJohnson 17:19, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

But its an encyclpedia. Just make it a separate page that's connected to Fire Emblem. -Izaak

An encyclopedia isn't made to hold every little string of knowledge in the universe. I fail to see why this is needed at all.DMAJohnson 15:15, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Edit conflict in the Fire Emblem sector

I am aware that Zxcvbnm has started an edit conflict in the Fire Emblem sector of Wikipedia. He has made controversial edits that can lead to merging into huge articles. He controversially turned some articles into redirects to the game articles unfavorably. His mergers in the Fire Emblem sector have been greeted with controversy. I have reverted some of those edits. The article he started, List of minor characters in Fire Emblem, would likely turn into a gigantic mess. I am aware that Zxcvbnm might turn the Fire Emblem sector into a big mess. I do not trust him as an editor in this sector of Wikipedia, but I trust most of the other editors involved in the Fire Emblem sector. Besides, I am after all the founder of the Fire Emblem sector of Wikipeda, for I am the one who created the main Fire Emblem article. I will not allow unfavorable mergers or deletion propositions in the Fire Emblem sector. So I will have to put Zxcvbnm in check in this sector. Also, most of the information in the Fire Emblem: Rekka no Ken article was lost to an edit by 'Ivan. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 12:25, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Fire Emblem Portal

I am thinking about have a Fire Emblem WikiPortal to be created in Wikipedia. I am sure this sector is worth having a portal. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando 12:10, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

We need a table for the list of FE games

I feel as thô the list of Fire Emblem games need to be listed in HTML table so the side notes, release dates, and alternative titles are much more organized.Samusfan80 User:Samusan60 11:52 MT, May 30, 2006

Seconded. Axem Titanium 21:55, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm not too skilled at HTML tables so thanks a lot for perfecting it for me! Samusfan80 11:34 AM Mountain Time, May 31, 2006