Talk:Fine Gael

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 Fine Gael was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: November 4, 2007
Ireland Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Ireland on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, visit the project page.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)
Top This article has been rated as top-importance on the priority scale.


Contents

[edit] Election box metadata

This article contains some sub-pages that hold metadata about this subject. This metadata is used by the Election box templates to display the color of the party and its name in Election candidate and results tables.

These links provide easy access to this meta data:


[edit] European People's Party

The European People's Party page informs that there is a Cypriot party that is also in this voting bloc, so the line about FG being 'the only member-party of the Christian Democratic European People's Party (EPP) in Ireland, or indeed, from anywhere outside Continental Europe' can be edited

[edit] Discussion

The edits I've reverted were either simply wrong or POV. It is not true to say that FG is the second biggest party in Ireland. Ireland does not have parties. Only three parties have all Irish structures (Sinn Fein, the Ulster Unionists and the Conservatives - yes the latter two do exist south of the border and do run candidates!). Almost all the political parties on the island exist either in the north or the south, not in both. FG is the second biggest party in the Republic, not the island, just as Fianna Fail is the biggest party in the Republic: it does not run candidates in the North.

The claim that FG is perceived as less in favour of Irish unity is garbage. FG has promoted a different concept of unity to the unitary state pushed for most of the time by FF. But while Haughey talked the talk, FG did deliver in the Anglo-Irish Agreement, the first attempt to involve the south in governing the north since the early 1920s. 159.134.137.114 07:09, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This page offers me nothing on what Fine Gael's political stances are. Look here;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labour_Party_%28UK%29

And tell me .. why can't we have such a sidebar for political parties of nations like Ireland..?

Someone doesnt like facing up to the truth about Fine Gael. It is a reformed fascist party, thats just a fact.

  Where is the evidence for such a suggestion?

There's been quite a lot of petty vandalism of late on this page. Also, it is untrue to say FG is a sister party of the UUP in the EPP. The UUP are part of the ED group that votes with the EPP. Indeed, the UUp are euro-sceptics while FG are pro integration.

Cumann na nGheadheal were never referred to as the Commonwealth party, indeed, in Government they did more to undermine it than any other party in the Commonwealth through clever diplomacy.


"Ireland does not have parties". Beautiful. As Fine Gael aspires (or claims to aspire) to a united Ireland, it's valid to say they're the second-biggest party in Ireland. It's also valid to show which Irish MEPs are associated with FG in the European Parliament.

Lapsed Pacifist 14:28, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Lapsed pacifist that's nonsense. The UUP are eurosceptic and FG are pro-integration.They don't even belong to the same European party! Their respective European parties just vote together int he parliament. No link between UUP and FG


If their parties always vote together, that's a notable link.

Lapsed Pacifist 10:25, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

But the respective parties that they belong to have a different outlook on the future of Europe. The UUP belong to a eurosceptic block along with the British Conservative party whereas FG favour greater European integration, common defence etc. The two parties have nothing in common. One is Nationalist the other Unionist!!

While FG is a largely Christian Democratic party, I don't think it warrants the new side bar on CD. FG was founded on uniquely Irish circumstances and was never contrasted with Chrisitan Democracy until the 1970s when Ireland joined the EU. Fine Gael's outlook is not exclusively Christian democratic


[edit] Right-wing/Reactionary

There is much about Just Society and the socially conscious aspect. Fair enough. However, the article most definitely needs a section on the Paddy Donegan/Paddy Cooney/Brendan McGahern section of the party, and the party's role in the Murder Squad and the North in general. There remains a very strong neo fascist/West Brit wing of the Fine Gael party and this should not be written out. Although Bruton was not exactly in that mode, his hatred of even moderate nationalists like Hume went far beyond reaching out to unionism, and much closer to the dubious relationship between senior Fine Gael politicians and British Intelligence during the coalition government in the 1970s. El Gringo 17:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

What sort of nonsense is that?? Tell us more about this "murder squad"? Is it the National Army your on about or the Republicans who went round murdering Government ministers in the 1920s?

Bruton didn't "hate" any Nationalist, he was one himself. Just because he didn't like the idea of killing for Ireland soesn't make him ant nationalist. He was even handed, temperate and ultimately vindicated on the North for keeping talks going through dificult phases. Get your facts straight before talking such utter tripe.—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])

Strange how if Bruton "hated" Hume they were such close friends. But then Hume is also a close friend of Paisley. (DUP figures were astonished some years ago when they dropped around to Paisley's home and found the door opened by John Hume. Ian and Eileen had had John and Pat around for tea!) FearÉIREANN\(caint) 16:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Bruton didn't hate moderate nationalists but he was not a nationalist himself.When he was leader of Fine Gael he didn't join in the pan-nationalist strategy and when he was toaiseach threre was a time he refused to speak to john hume because hume was having discussions with sinn fein Dermo69

Can I suggest that if it is your intention to put political slant, be that overtly positive or negitive, on this page, especially if you have a negitive attitude to this party, refrain from posting on the page. You do not have the right without references, to make comments like associating this party firstly with fascism, and secondly with the UUP. There is no connection in the current party to either. If there is, provide acedemic sources to prove your point of view.

I would most certainly argue that a party partly founded by the fascist blueshirts of the ACA could fail to have at least a mention of said fascism on its page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.31.114 (talk) 23:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Catholic political parties

would anyone object if I classified this article in the Category:Catholic political parties? -- C mon 07:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes.Sorry but i dont see them as a 'catholic' party.Why do you think they are? Dermo69

Because they are christian-democratic party in a homogenous catholic country. That makes it a logical candidate for the category. --C mon 14:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • What is Category:Catholic political parties intended for? Is it for parties whose policies agree with Catholic teachings? Is it for parties which self-identify as "Catholic parties"? Is it for parties which are supported in particular by Catholic voters? Is it for parties which restrict membership to Catholics? Fine Gael don't qualify under any of these criteria. The Christian Solidarity Party, on the other hand, would. Demiurge 15:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
It could be categorised as a Christian Democratic Party but not as a Catholic Party. They are not the same (they once were). Fine Gael regularly takes stances different to political viewpoint of Roman Catholicism. It championed the introduction of divorce since the 1970s, supported liberalised laws on contraception, and has consistently opposed the Roman Catholic view on abortion, homosexuality, etc. So to call it a Catholic Party is incorrect. The Christian Solidarity Party would qualify for such a designation, though. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 18:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Basically the category is meant for christian democratic parties with catholic electorates and which base themselves on catholic social teaching. It is meant to distinguish from protestant CD parties. So I thought that they would fit. I have one question though, why would you classify it as a christian-democratic party if it is so ethically liberal. I realize that the Irish party system is confusing for outsiders but how a CD party in a catholic country cannot be a catholic party confuses me to no end, I have reverted the categorization. --C mon 18:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
C mon, I think that the confusion may stem from your assumption that Ireland is "a Catholic country": at best that's far too simplistic a label, and it's arguably completely wrong these days. This isn't the place to argue the details, but a label like that is a poor starting point. Anyway, well done removing the category :) --BrownHairedGirl 19:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I've given up. But out of interest Ireland is a dominantly catholic country isn't it? Like the Republic of Ireland page reads The Republic of Ireland is 92% nominally Roman Catholic. I mean how could a read that wrong? --C mon 21:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Without trying to summarise the last few decades of change in Irish society, the clue is in the word nominal.  :)
The fact that a lot of people were baptised in a religion or attend church to some degree does not mean that a political party appealing for their votes will necessarily offer the full programme of adherence to that church's values as a political programme. --BrownHairedGirl 23:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Ireland was once a heavily Catholic, heavily Catholicised country. But it no longer is. It has a president who was a founder of a campaign for gay rights, a prime minister who is separated from his wife and for most of his premiership was living with a woman who acted as his hostess on state occasions. Most of the cabinet are separated, divorced or married to divorcees. Mass attendance is around 45% and in freefall, with in some parts of Dublin it nearer to 5%. The electors rejected proposals on abortion endorsed by the Catholic bishops. The electors voted to introduce divorce and against a restriction of the X and C cases on abortion rights.

As to Christian Democracy — few Christian Democratic parties are in step with Roman Catholicism. Most support liberal laws on divorce, marriage, gay rights, abortion. By international standards under Enda Kenny Fine Gael is more conservative and many CD parties. At stage the only political parties that champion Roman Catholic views in law are far right parties in Poland or the likes of the electorally irrelevant Christian Solidarity Party. Yet the Catholic bishops are to the left of it. The highly regarded Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, who is widely tipped to return to a high post at cardinal level in the Vatican (and is openly speculated about in Rome as a future pope) has come out in favour of civil partnerships for gay people. Fine Gael has been defined as Christian Democrat since it joined the European People's Party in the European Parliament in I think 1978. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 01:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I see the problem: catholicism has a different meaning for you than for me. For me its just a religion, which is often more relaxed than protestantism, for you it is something the Irish have been emancipating from quite a while. You associated catholicism with a conservative past. The category would be too POV-charged for you, while for me its just a sub-category of Christian democracy. (P.S. I will no longer clog the talk-space of this article with my ignorance of Irish society)--C mon 08:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
This is a very delicate and difficult subject. I am member of the Dutch Christian Democratic Appeal (and a Catholic too) and will try to formulate my vision on whether Fine Gael is a Catholic party or not. Whether a party is Catholic depends, in my humble opinion, on the fact whether it desires to (solely) represent the Catholics and specifically calls upon Catholic voters to vote for them. I think that Fine Gael, as most Christian Democrats nowadays, doesn't specifically target Catholics but the Irish population in general. It's of course natural for Christian Democratic parties to attract religious voters, but I guess an active member of the Church of Ireland or a left-of-centre non-religious Irishman, can feel comfortable with Fine Gael policies. The only extant Christian Democratic party that could nowadays be classified as Catholic in my eyes is the Christian Social Union of Bavaria, which is heavily supported by the staunchly Catholic population of the state and sometimes pursues a policy that's independent from its sister party in the rest of Germany, the Christian Democratic Union of Germany (which is multi-confessional). User:84.26.116.26|84.26.116.26]] 22:51, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poll

With all due respect, this is an outdated poll. I intend replacing it with more recent poll(s) by TNS/MRBI or IMS which indicate a limited recovery for FF and a preference for Bertie Ahern (Fianna Fail) as Taoiseach (PM) rather than Enda Kenny (FG). The poll I have placed is from September and therefore far more recent and more relevant. 19:07 16/09/2006 - Ronan

[edit] In the news

This recent story from the Irish Independent records the apparently accidential use of "the United Ireland Party"[1]. Registration required to view story. Djegan 18:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Social democratic minority faction?

How prominent is this faction? Given that the party are even labelled as more business-friendly than Fianna Fail, it can't be very strong. E.J. 17:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no such talk of factions in Fine Gael. It is a christian democratic party by virtue of the fact that the party is affiliated with the EPP. Its core domestic philosiphy is in sync with this concept of politics aswell. Social Democracy is something that was ever only mentioned with regard to Garrett Fitzgerald leadership, with ended with the advent of the 1990s, and growth of the Irish economy, and ultimatly with the formation of the Bruton government.

Though there is considerable debate in the party itself, these do not surround the issue of ideology, but rather the more practical implementation of policy. Most party members however may associate with christian democracy in the first instance owing to historic associations with its predecessor parties, its figure heads, and a largely conservative view on a great deal of issues. Finally, please note that the party is not a member of the socialist international, but rather the Christian Democratic international grouping.

Owing to these aforementioned factions, I would support the simple classification of Christian Democratic/Centrist/Centre Right in the place of ideology. (SMJB)

Agree with you, the ideology has been changed already. E.J. 14:14, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Further form the previous comments and discussions had here, I must insist that the ideology section of this thread is watched closely. Social Democracy and Social Liberalism are being inserted without basis or fact. FG is a christian democratic and/or centrist party. That is as simple a classification as you can get and is justified by both FG's centrist principles and the fact that it mentions such on its website and literature, and the fact that it is associated with the European People's Party (Christian Democrats) European Democrats, who have as its ideology, Christian Democracy, Conservatism and Centrism.

If in future, somebody believes that there is a basis for changing the ideology, let them state their case here prior to any changes being made and let it be debated with all due caution. --104066481 (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

In the article it is clearly stated and referenced how there is a social-democratic faction within Fine Gael. I don't think it is controversial to say that FG is a christian-democratic party with a minor social-democratic faction. --Checco (talk) 15:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Respectfully, it states that there was a social democratic faction. The national executive and members of Fine Gael have, since the resignation of Alan Dukes, rejected social democracy. It did not figure as a part of the political ideology of the party in the past since the advent of the Celtic tiger. I would suggest to you that if you wish to address social democracy, that you do it in the form of a footnote, as in reality that would be as much as social democracy would warrent amongst members of the party today. Finally, let me state that I consider it a severe misrepresentation to change the ideology of the party as you are, if it was you who changed the party ideology. I would suggest that you state how and where you see social democracy today in the party, amonst the party membership and respresentation, be that in the media or else where. For my part, I would point out that Irish newspapers have touted new TDs such as Lucinda Creighton and Leo Varadkar as being centre-right orators. FG policies such as those supporting insurance for under fives during the past election have more in common with the other EPP parties rather than social democratic parties who advocate free health care. Enda Kenny's assertion to the celtic and christian nature of Ireland and FG's dedication to this finally touts a fundemental note in relation to this debate. To address social democracy, you must go back three leaders in the party to Dukes. Today, he is more likely to associate with the current ideology of the party himself, although his main thrust of work has been in the area of the pro-European campaign. I think that I have addressed what I feel a fundemental flaw in your evaluation of the party's position thus. Please respond here before changing the ideology again. Further more, I point you to the bottom of the page where an un-alterable fact sheet states the party ideology as it was before any alterations with regard to social democracy of any other such farcical assertion. I don't know whether you are a member, but as a member, I feel I must address these issues and avoid misrepresentation of the party on this, an encyclopedic article, it being factual and honest. Please see the above arguments for previous debate on this issue--104066481 (talk) 00:17, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

There is definitely a minority social-democratic faction in Fine Gael, as sources clearly state, and some of the party's policies are social-democratic, but I give up with you: factual accuracy is sometimes an utopia in Wikipedia. Bye. --Checco (talk) 14:51, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

This article seems to turn entirely around Fine Gael's history, while there's almost no mention of the party's ideology, plans for the future or it's voter base. I'm afraid too much is missing from the article, so i have to fail it. If you disagree with my review feel free to seek a reassessment. Yamanbaiia 19:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

But, you see, Fine Gael is an Irish political party. Irish political parties don't have ideologies or plans. ;) EamonnPKeane (talk) 17:34, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Logo

The previous logo was poor and very pixilated. I replaced it and peged it at 275 pixils. It suits the size of the page and is similar to the size seen on other similar websites. 104066481 20:23, 12 January 2008 (UTC) The logo has been replaced with a gif image. It seems fine.--104066481 (talk) 14:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)