Talk:Final Fantasy Tactics

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[edit] No mention of the music

There's not even a single line about the music. I can't see it being a good article without something as important as that at least being mentioned -- especially since FFT's OST has a general positive reception. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 13:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Great, a helpful response! I'll add it in right away. Bluerです。 なにか? 13:12, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Or the game classes system. FFT has a classes system similar to D&D but it has some classes of its own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.45.86.16 (talk) 14:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good Article Nomination 14 April 2007 - Fail

[edit] Report Card

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail:

[edit] References

There are two reasons why this article fails to be a Good Article. The main reason is that the vast majority of the article is unreferenced. There are many statements which are not verifiable, and the article borders on original research. Below are a few example sentences from the article which should be referenced. The statements may be 100% true, but there is no way to verify their accuracy without references. This is not a complete list of sentences that need to be referenced:

  • "It was published in Japan by Square and in North America by Sony Computer Entertainment America. It was never released in Europe."
  • "This is due, in part, to the presence of former Quest staff members in its development crew, including director Yasumi Matsuno, character designer Akihiko Yoshida, art director Hiroshi Minagawa and composer Hitoshi Sakimoto, all of whom had left Quest to work with Square."
  • "It has been announced that a reworked version of Final Fantasy Tactics with widescreen support, updated graphics, new jobs, and cel-shaded FMV will appear on the PlayStation Portable as Final Fantasy Tactics Shishi Sensō, as part of Square Enix's new Ivalice Alliance project."
  • "However, one major flaw was its poor localization, which included many mistranslations rendering an 'already complex plot nearly incomprehensible'".

Also, the last reference in the article's reference list is not formatted correctly.

  • Yeah, this shouldn't have been nominated quite yet. I have the tactics manual, so I can take care of the gameplay section. I don't think we should really change the plot section much for GA, since it covers the main points (but if we go to FA, we'll need to expand it to attain the comprehensiveness standard). — Deckiller 17:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

Two of the three images in the article do not have a fair use rationale. A fair use rationale similar to the one used for "BattleGrid.jpg" should be added before renomination.

Snottywong 16:21, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Response

Thank you, Snottywong. We'll see what we can do, tackling the references and verifiability, and return to nominate it for GA again. Thanks again. Bluerです。 なにか? 16:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree, the GA nom may have been a little hasty. I will try to help as much as I can before the next nom. Axem Titanium 16:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
All the images have their fair-use rationale placed, hopefully, and the story is verifiable with all the dialog references. Bluerです。 なにか? 05:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging?

Oppose: Hey, why is there a Final Fantasy III (Nintendo DS) article when we have a Final Fantasy III article already? And before you make any hasty mergedit, consider that I'm pouring my effort to make the article noteworthy. Give it a few months, it's not even out yet. Merging won't help the situation for the article considering it is not even in GA status yet. Bluerです。 なにか? 13:29, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

FFIII DS is a remake, it's brand new game with a new engine and new graphics and battle system, except it reuses the same story as the original game. FFT:SS is just a port with a few bonuses. Kariteh 13:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Give it some time. Soon, there's a soundtrack out for it. Who knows what other features the developers might bring? Besides, it'll flow like the FFIIIDS article; "Development", "Gameplay" (did you see the official website?), "Changes and addition", "Audio", and most importantly "Reception and criticism", that could take up the space in this article. Bluerです。 なにか? 14:13, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Dawn of Souls has its own article because it can't be merged into FFI or FII: it's a compilation of both games. The Ivalice Alliance argument has no weight because of Finest Fantasy For Advance: the FFI to VI handheld ports are part of FFFA while their original versions are not, yet they don't have their separate articles. Kariteh 16:09, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

By that logic, it should be merged with Final Fantasy Origins. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 16:13, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that leaving both articles up, at least until Shishi senso is released, won't hurt anybody. While they are both essentially the same game, they would have different development and reception sections and obviously, the plot is being changed as well (I mean, Balthier's freaking in it). Just remember, Wikipedia is not perfect; the world will not end tomorrow-so you can still edit; and there is no deadline to improving the article. Axem Titanium 16:17, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
FFI&II DS: Good idea, I agree. I didn't thought about FF Origins. This will help improve these articles since they're rather empty as separate articles.
FFT: See you on May 10 then. Kariteh 16:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Actually, not on May 10th. People have to play through the game and inform us non-Japanese people about what's new and how the appearance of Balthier, Luso, and the addition of storyline cutscenes affect the entire plot. If anything, we should consider merging this if the game doesn't get a North American or European release date by the time this year ends. LanceHeart 01:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

With that said and done, I think we should leave the merging issue for awhile and instead concentrate on bringing this lovely article to GA, people. That's the whole point anyway, get this article to GA, then we can rethink about merging. I'm thinking of rewriting the plot sections. Bluerです。 なにか? 11:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I hate to bring this up again, but considering the port has been out for a while and that it has an underwhelming amount of new content, it could easily be merged into this article with little effort, much in the same manner the Final Fantasy 4, 5 and 6 ports were incorporated into theirs. The PSP version of FFT is no more a remake than the PS1 and GBA versions of FF4 through 6. All the while striving to keep GA status, we can easily use the format from the previously stated articles and add the PSP port's information into this one. LanceHeart 12:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Altima's a chick

The article should use the feminine pronoun for her. Kariteh 16:41, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I have made a mistake! I thought I saw Ajora's name there (Ajora's a he). Be my guest and change it back :D . Bluerです。 なにか? 16:44, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, the article seems to claim that Altima was Ajora in the past. I don't think it's that clear in the game, we don't really know if Ajora was Altima "in disguise" all along or if Ajora was just Ultima's human host. I think we should leave the issue as vague as the game left it. Altima was definitely female, but who knows what and WHO Ajora was. Kariteh 16:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA

I think the FFT will be considered a good article self-nomination when it meets the good article critera. This nomination reminds me of the FFXII FA push. I will need some help with that. We have to cite references and/or sources (see WP:CITE). This article has this unreferenced tag: I will try to improve on the citations to match up with the GA status as explained above. I will have to use references from various sources (such as IGN, Gamespy, Gamespot and the FFT game guide from Brady Games). Good luck, everyone, and I like to say a quote from the Star Wars saga: "May the Force be with you, always". Anything else you want to add? I think a peer review would be considered as well. Sjones23 23:10, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm amused at your enthusiasm :D, but i had to remove the tag, we know it's there, thanks, and it clutters the talk page. I've started the GA push by rewriting the story section, which is as comprehensive as it gets (the story had a very, very elaborate plot) with all the possibly related dialogs placed in between. Good luck with finding sources for this ol' fella. Like I said, I'm concentrating on the plot section, so the characters or the setting comes next. Bluerです。 なにか? 05:22, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I posted some parts where references are imperative. The gameplay section in particular needs to be drawn from either in-game manual or product manual or reviews or interviews. Also the reception section can be expanded, there are lots more reviews for this game. Bluerです。 なにか? 09:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Yeah, I'll still hold true to my promise of completely overhauling that gameplay section. — Deckiller 09:41, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I do have faith in you, Deck :D! I'm thinking of tackling the plot (character and setting) and reception sections - Bluerです。 なにか? 09:47, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I also have faith in you, Deck! Bluerfn and Deck, good luck! I will help out with you. If any of you have anything for me to work on, let me know. And I quote again from Star Wars: May the force be with you, always! Sjones23 22:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi once again. Think we can add references and/or sources for FFT? If you want to cite sources to the FFT game guide (Brady Games) and anything else (i.e IGN, Gamespot, Gamespy), go ahead. Thanks. This article needs a lot of work to become a GA. Sjones23 21:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, wait, so far, I added only one source to an unreferenced statement. To make this article a nom for GA, we will add references and/or sources and fix up the issues. Deckiller, Bluerfn an everyone else, any citations to references and/or sources (e.g FFT's official game guide, IGN) would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Sjones23 21:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

I added a reference and it is here. Any more references to throw in should be greatly appreciated. Sjones23 20:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Nom

Nominated for GA status. — Deckiller 21:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Someone I know is doing me a favor and reviewing this article early. — Deckiller 21:46, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA

This article meets the GA criteria and I passed it. Some things you can look at for improvement are: making sure all citations go after punctuation, a good copy-edit, take a look at the reception section it feels too possitive, some criticism of the game would be ideal. Darthgriz98 21:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger of Character article into this article

The character page has little chance of being seriously referenced, so it would be better to bolster this article and add some more character detail in preparation for FA status. Judgesurreal777 01:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be quite a bit of unreferenced information in the character bios. Not to mention, the shear amount of information in that article is too heavy for this one. Perhaps making summaries of the main characters of the game would suffice (Ramza, Delita, Alma, Ovelia). Of course, that would essentially mean using some of the information of the article, but it would have better form than just random names slapped into the current paragraphs in the article and would avoid having to sacrifice the biographies of at least 6 other minor characters.

LanceHeart 07:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Oh definitely, I mean only adding a little bit of the huge amount of information (fancruft) in the character article to this one. Judgesurreal777 16:01, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
FFT has a pretty large cast; anything more than just the main characters would clutter the article too much. Redxiv 01:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Characters that deserve mention in the mainpage would be Ramza, Delita and Ovelia. Other characters will be mentioned in one simple paragraph, and a link should point to a Characters of FFT page to explain about the other characters. In fact, decrufting the FFT character List is prudent. It should flow like FFXII's mainpage and its characters page, with in-game reference and the like. — Bluerです。 なにか? 02:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The cast of worth to mention characters in FFT is huge, merging the characters article here will really create an extremely cluttered article. Elegarth 14:59, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Oh, I agree, the character list has gotten overgrown and needs some trimming. Redxiv 05:41, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
If you guys remember, the character list USED to be on this page, but we moved it because it was getting too large. I vote to leave it where it is. Noah 17:18, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Noah. No need to merge the characters, especially given how many characters play a vital role in FFT. While the article could be much better sourced, that shouldn't be TOO difficult to do. Cheers, Lanky ○ Yell ○ 14:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I concur. As I said above, it does have a chance to be like FFVIII's character page. It only needs decrufting, trimming, and utmost dedication by editors. — Bluerです。 なにか? 14:29, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
That comes as a big shock to me, since it seems like there is currently no out of universe information on this page....What resources are there for this page? Judgesurreal777 22:52, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merger of Soundtrack article into this article

Unlike most of the installments which have a "Music of FF..." article, FFT had only one simple soundtrack, no arranged album, EP, or singles. The FFT OST doesn't really need to have its own article, especially since it's unsourced and its section here is sourced, and is short. Kariteh 17:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea, it will improve this article.Judgesurreal777 22:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Would this article need the official OST tracklist? I'll get to it soon if it does, complete with track duration and composer. — Bluerで す。 19:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Final fantasy tactics.jpg

Image:Final fantasy tactics.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 07:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

It's fixed, no worries. — Bluerで す。 12:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unreliable sources!

I have removed some unreliable sources but the change was reverted. I would like to know why they qualify as reliable. One of them was notably a Tripod fanpage. Also, the page for the Game Informer review is missing in the reference, and there is no source for SoundtrackCentral even though it is quoted in the article. Thanks! FFXII International + Paul Rodgers (talk) 15:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Tripod fanpage sourced it from the Famitsu magazine - the closest to a reliable source. If a source is not given, there is a better practice than simply tagging it with fact tag and leaving it to someone else to find the source, especially when it can easily be found. We appreciate you being eager to edit, but please don't overdo it. — Blue。 16:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
BTW, there wasn't any dead link. It's just a misplaced citation. Edited. — Blue。 16:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I think Characters of Final Fantasy Tactics should be redirected here. The characters article has never managed to establish notability with concrete, significant creation and reception details. Furthermore, Final Fantasy Tactics is already a featured article and already explains what one needs to know about the topic in terms of encyclopedic information. For more specific information, the FF Wikia is already linked. Kariteh (talk) 10:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Disagree: It's been well established that lists of characters are appropriate for wikipedia. 75.148.25.169 (talk) 15:29, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
No, what's been established is that articles are appropriate if they comply with WP:N and WP:V among other stuff. Characters of Final Fantasy Tactics currently does not comply, and hasn't shown any potential for improvement over the years. Kariteh (talk) 15:39, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
To clarify, articles like Characters of Kingdom Hearts are appropriate due to their significant "Creation and influence", "Merchandise" and "Reception" sections. Articles like Characters of Final Fantasy Tactics can't attain the same level of real-work significance. Kariteh (talk) 15:44, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
It's inevitable. We lack real world content to support this article. But then again, what have we to merge with the main article? The topic should have been redirect ;) — Blue。 17:53, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
This is a no brainer; it has never been any good, tags in place for years and no improvement because there is no information to improve it with. Definite merge. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 17:56, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
List of characters are acceptable without having to prove notability as per WP:SPINOUT without having to prove notability. See also a discussion on the List of characters in Bully article. McJeff (talk) 23:25, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
As far as improving the article - give me a week to replay the game and refresh my memory and I'll make some bold changes to the thing. Including digging up some sources - there's bound to be something out there about at least Ramza. McJeff (talk) 02:51, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
If there is no notability, no other issue really matters, it shouldn't have its own article if there is no notability. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
If you can read Japanese McJeff perhaps you will manage to uncover some interesting design information about Ramza, who knows. People tried to find some in English for years and didn't succeed, though. Kariteh (talk) 21:38, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't speak any Japanese, but it should be possible to request assistance from a Japanese speaking Wikipedian. But at any rate, I suggest that Judge go ahead and AfD the article, because there's no point in working on one that's under threat. McJeff (talk) 23:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
No, if there really is some notability that justifies a whole article, fantastic. But you probably need more than one reference to sustain a whole article. But if that doesn't exist, perhaps we should merge it and add more detail and references to the characters section of the game article. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 05:24, 6 May 2008 (UTC)