User talk:Filiocht/Archive two

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[edit] Urgh!

I want to answer directly here: You wrote: " My guess is that Tub will be an FA before the week is out; Raul is the person who does the actual move. I'm sorry if my nominating the article caused you a lot of unwanted headaches, but there are so many FAs on daft subjects as it is and I am determined to get as many good literature-related articles as possible featured to try to redress the balance a bit (I have been doing so for about a year now and about 40% of the Literature FAs were nominated by and/or worked on by me). I do not have any particular history with any of the objectors, so I do not think it fair to say I drew the wrath. Some people, quite rightly in many respects, will always find a way an article could be improved and will object on that grounds. I do not think that personal animosity has anything to do with it. If the Wild and John Vanbrugh articles are nominated, you can count on my vote for both. Unconditionally. I hope you may consider nominating any other articles you have done and which you consider to be of this quality because, as you say yurself, 'there are a lot of trivial things nominated' and nominating non-trivial things is the best way to do something about it. Filiocht 10:21, Oct 26, 2004 (UTC)"

Let me say, loudly and clearly, "Urgh!" I meant in no way that your nomination was any problem at all. I was trying to reassure a nail biting Bishonen (whom I know in real life and who gets stressed betimes by the gun of suddenly being required to have an article in perfect shape) that s/he wouldn't have to go through what I did with the Tale article. I had never before looked at the FAC page, and neither had Bishonen. Pages have personalities. On VfD, for example, I'm one of the angels of death, and I know it (and so do other people who will occasionally hold that very much against me). I was guessing that perhaps the FAC voters had their own rivalries and personalities and that perhaps the Tale took heat because of some animus. I did not and do not believe it to be the case, but I was, as I say, trying to reassure Bishonen somewhat that the same over-proof of scholarship wouldn't befall the Vanbrugh article.
I have been looking at your articles, and I'm stunned by their quality. I didn't know there even were other Litgeeks like me about. Oh, I knew there were some people with some knowledge, but a dedication to Modernism? Wow. As you've probably figured out, Bishonen and I are both 18th century specialists. Essentially, I'm an "Age of Satire" person who worked quite a bit in the 1690's and 1710's (literature of the field, I mean -- I'm not that old).
The HD article had prose of such quality that I actually wondered if it had come from a print source. It was highly polished and seamless. All I could find to do at all was kvetch about how readers won't know Imagism and disrupt a single instance of repetition.
Please, please don't read my attempts at reassuring Bishonen as any aspersion or ingratitutde to you. I apologize for the appearance of such, and for not answering your comments until now. I missed the change to my page, perhaps seeing two changes and only catching the later one. Geogre 23:50, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] ABC of Reading

I notice your Pound quote on your user page. One of the Pound quotes I found revolutionary, literally, was his argument that first comes the plain meaning of the words on the page. It seems obvious, but in the ABC of Reading Pound reminded me that the first thing is the literal. The literal is not obliterated by the symbolic or associative. After I read that, it changed the way I taught literature. I found myself saying to my class, "No, when he says 'three trees against a low sky' he means there are three trees against a low sky. Yes, absolutely, that's a foreshadowing of Calvary, but there are three trees against a low sky." ABC of Reading and Richards's Principles of Practical Criticism were two of the biggest and best corrections to my allegorical, exegetical, Modernist Symbolist drenched mind ever. Just thought it was cool that you had that quote. Geogre 14:23, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Adminship

Go raibh maith agat, a Fhiliocht, for your support of my adminship nomination. JOHN COLLISON [ Ludraman] 15:19, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Haiku!

Thank you for the haiku! (I just noticed it.) So much depends upon that red wheelbarrow, after all. Geogre 01:27, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Vanbrugh

Thank you. I guess it's easier to list them than to get people to take an interest in them, though. See FAC regulars hop right over this one (by no means uniquely this one)? If only they knew about young Jack Vanbrugh galloping handsomely through the night with the blueprints for the Glorious Revolution and then tunnelling out of the Bastille with a spoon!--Bishonen 19:14, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hi Filliocht, Thanks for your help and support at John Vanbrugh, Bishonen has been the star there, finding things and reserching information that's been hardly known before, yet alone freely available in the internet, is there some special recognition, like "Bishonen of the Decade" or something we really do appreciate your help, in attempting to save it from the scalpel! Giano 21:31, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Featuring culture articles

Hello, Filiocht, might you be looking for more cultural articles to nominate as FAC, by any chance? John Dee, apparently the sole work of User:PRiis, seems very good to me. If you agree, please take a look at the latest entries on PRiis' Talk page, to see both why I'd rather not do the nominating, and why PRiis himself hasn't yet. Regards,--Bishonen 00:17, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Buroeocrat nomination

Dear Filiotch: Hi! I want you to know I thank you from the bottom of my heart for voting in my request to become a bureocrat. After all, freedom of speech and democracy are but some of the most beautiful things we have been blessed with.

You have a point when you implied that "sounds cool" doesnt seem quite right in that sentence. But the only thing is that, in my personal view, I run into a lot of older people who say that or the word cool and I dont consider them immature.

I'd like to invite you to check some of the thousands of articles Ive written here....[phewwww! Ive been here since September, 2002, I must be older than, say Adam and Eve!) lol...But talking seriously, I really take my work here seriously. Dont get me wrong, I know you know that. Wikipedia has been to me a blessing, but to inform people about other important people or items (say Alan Minter, the Dalkon Shield case) that might have otherwise been ovelooked. I also come here to learn as well; Ive enjoyed articles on many other topics, such as Susan B. Anthony, World War I and countless others.

I want to become wiki-friends with you..what do you say?

Thanks, and God bless you!

Sincerely yours, "Antonio I drank the Wikipedia bottle, Im drunk! Martin"

  • PS: my own nicknames are only to give people here something to smile about, or, at least, a laugh for the day).

Hope to hear from you soon!

[edit] List of poetry anthologies

I see that you started the List of poetry anthologies, and are also involved in Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias. I've sort of started my own version of CSB by finding various articles and lists that could be improved or added to by using my knowledge of Japanese poetry. Thus I've added a number of important Japanese poetry anthologies to the List of poetry anthologies (although I need to return to the page and annotate my additions). I'll also be adding soon to the Envoi article some discussion of the envoi (or envoy) for Japanese choka poetry. I've added Matsuo Basho to the List of diarists, and should be adding more after I finish an article on Japanese literary diaries. gK 09:44, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese poetry and other subjects

Part of the problem with the Japanese poetry article is that Waka means Japanese poetry not written in Chinese, so it is the Waka article that covers most of the history of Japanese poetry and that is the article we've been mostly working on. It would be tempting to just use a redirect that sends Japanese Poetry to the Waka article, but that's not quite true either. There is also Kanshi (poetry written in Chinese -- article not written yet), Renga (linked verse), Haiku and Senryu. So I guess what is needed is something that explains all the basics, and then points to the different Japanese poetry forms.

Instead of the systemis bias COTW, it would probably be better to let the fairly new Wikipedia:Japanese Collaboration of the Week have a try at fixing up the Japanese poetry article stub.

re: Gary Snyder: There probably should be some mention of his interest in haiku and his influence on a number of the other Beats getting interested in haiku such as Kerouac and Ginsberg. FYI: I just read on the NYTimes website that Snyder has a new book of poetry coming out.

FYI: Your haiku that you wrote for User:Geogre is really more of a senryu.

FAC Question: I recently found the Shakespearean authorship article and thought that it might be a good FA. Any comments?

PS: I noted that the Irish poetry had a translation that didn't have the translator credited, which is something I've seen way too much of, both on the internet in general, and the Wikipedia specifically. gK 10:52, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks Filiocht for guiding me through the FAC process... its great to see another Irish FAC - CGorman 19:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] more comments from gK

re: the translation of Caoine Cill Chais: go ahead and credit yourself, either under your "real name" or your Wikipedia user name. I think that it is important that people realize that translations take a considerable amount of thought and effort and that the translators get credit for their work. As I said before, both on the internet and in the Wikipedia, this doesn't happen often enough. Put a note something like "translation by xxxx specifically for the Wikipedia".

re: systemic bias COTW: You might gather up a list of various lists, such as the List of poetry anthologies and suggest a collaboration with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Poetry on expanding those lists, with a concentration on languages other than English, and countries other than the US and Great Britain. That might provide a nice break from some of the big and "important" articles that they have been trying to tackle.

re: WP:FAC I am almost finished with my first major rewrite, the Kigo article from what was originally a translation of a stub on the Japanese Wikipedia. I have a few more things that I want to change or add, but it is just about done. Could you take a look at it and tell me if it might be a good Feature Article candidate. gK 21:30, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Main Page

Sorry your page won't download further than this, so butting in half way down: Yeah, are you sure you want to go there? Strange thing is after (about 53 edits) it says more or less exactly what it said in the first place. I left a snotty message on its talk page, which I rather regret now, see you have made further comment - thank! Probably best for me to forget about the page. The one edit that really got me was "considered deeply" to "deeply considered"! But, If one is writing for personal credit I suppose we shouldn't be here in the first place. Had a laugh at the comments though on the talk page of today's main page "porn", "garbage" and "should not be there" - At least poor old PA was spared that, I'm sure Abbey Theatre will be fine, its such a comprehensive page there can't be lot left to say - I wonder when we will know. Cheers Giano 10:26, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dee

Thanks for giving John Dee that helpful shove over the edge! If it were up to me I don't think it would have happened yet. Everything seems to be well in hand. What happens next? PRIIS 02:31, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hey, it looks like it made it! Thanks again for your expert shepherding PRIIS 23:01, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Long pages

Thanks for the ecouragement, it does look like most people do not feel it is too long, and I will be forgetting about that objection, unless somebody actually says it is too long and dull, which may happen, as we are not home and dry yet. Is it my immagination or has there suddenly been an influx if Irish culture about the place - things are certainly looking up culturally, haven't spotted a pokemon for ages. Regards Giano 13:51, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Culture

I agree, but do you happen to know anyone who knows the difference between Irish and English palladianism, if you do - please ask them to do a few words at the appropriate section of Palladian Architecture. The Irish section need at least another 100 words to even the balance, and I can't find any more out there. Giano 14:05, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I found that one, and plenty of text books on the subject, loads on Irish Georgian Society etc, but nothing specifically says what makes the Irish any different, better or worse than the English version, I've drawn a few conclusions of my own on the page by observation, but would like to have them backed up. If I read one more guide book that begins, "Looking at Russborough (etc.) one sees a perfect example of Irish palladianism" without qualifying why, I will give up! This is the last stub I take on for quite a while anyway Giano 14:27, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, I have that, and here's an interesting thing Castletown claims to be the inspiration for the White House, as does Leinster House in Dublin. (I've put all that on the page - as it links nicely to the American Palladian section) However researching the page I've found another Irish house Castle Coole, which is back and front an exact (almost) replica of the White House and built 2 years before it. No where have I read an account or mention of the similarity, I think the chap who won the competition to design the White House plagiarised the plans and kept quiet. Nothing to do with Palladian Architecture but might make a good page sometime. Giano 14:44, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks - Which one would you put your money on, for being the inspiration for the Whie House?
One day I'll do a page likening the two, (the internal room layout is very similar too) It should ensure a spirited interest from our friends acros the Atlantic, to have the history of their national monument re-written! Giano 15:03, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] WP:LCOTW - Where do we go from here?

Looking over the LCOTW page and past and present LCOTWs, the project isn't doing much. When I set it up, I felt that literature was such a broad and interesting topic that there would be plenty of wikipedians to get involved and make it a success. However, if you look at the results:

I always, (and generally only, as it turns out) make contributions to the ones I've voted for. The rest of my LCOTW involvement comprises moving past LCOTWs to history, and changing the template etc. every week.

My problem is that LCOTW isn't working. I am putting it to you, because you are the other major LCOTWer. We have a few options:

  • Persevere on as we are doing
  • Implement a pledge policy - a good idea IMO but will probably only lead to less votes and the same amount of contributions
  • Publicise and promote awareness of the project, invite people working on related projects to it etc.
  • Shut it down - sounds like quitting, I know, but maybe our time should be better spent elsewhere?

What do you think of our options? Maybe you have better suggestions. I'm not out to end the LCOTW, but to change the way it's done currently!

I'm posting this comment knowing you're away at weekends, but I'm hoping to catch you. I'm going abroad on an exchange from Monday 8th to the 22nd, so if you re this on Monday, don't expect a reply for a while!

Cheers,
JOHN COLLISON [ Ludraman] 22:01, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Economy of Ireland

Economy of Ireland is now on WP:FAC - please support! CGorman 20:06, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] List of poetry anthologies and List of poetry collections

I've voted on your WP:LCOTW nomination. You probably should vote for your own nomination. ;-)

On a side note, with your interest in the Imagists, do you know if any if them besides Ezra Pound and Amy Lowell wrote haiku? Also, did Wallace Stevens or William Carlos Williams have any connection at all to any of the Imagist poets? gK 08:46, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The reason I asked: I am starting to write a section on "Haiku in English" for the haiku article similiar to the "Tanka in English" section I wrote for the waka article. All of those poets wrote haiku or haiku-like poetry. It would be great if I could find someone who could also add either a "Haiku in French" and a "Haiku in Spanish" section. gK 09:56, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Caoine Cill Chais translation

Should the first line be:

What shall we DO from now on without timber?

gK 10:07, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

replied at User talk:GK gK 11:11, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. I had never heard of Wikipedia:Collaboration of the Week or Wikipedia:Literature Collaboration of the Week before, but I've made a note of it. It'll take me some time to read those pages though. All the best, <KF> 12:46, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] COTW tags

Hi - thanks for tagging me :) I had anticipated it being added to the end of the talk, like a normal comment, and looking more like this:

[deleted]

Perhaps the header should be in the template too. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:42, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"much longer"? At most one more key press, surely? "click-edit, (click-entrypoint), control-v, control-s" versus "click-edit, control-end, control-V, control-s", no? (not that I am seeking to burden you with more work: I really appreciate you doing the tagging, I just don't want to cause umbrage with voters, particularly as this is the first time we (you!) have done the tagging thing.) -- ALoan (Talk) 13:52, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Thanks - thinking further, adding the header to the template would break it when the template was amended when the next COTW was selected: all the previous template references would be wrong, unless the template was added by transclusion (including the text of the template on saving rather than the reference to the template by doing {{subst:COTWvoter}} rather than {{COTWvoter}}). Hmm. This is a problem anyway - the text of the template has to be included rather than a reference to the template, unless the previous week's templates will be deleted when the new tags are added the following week. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:11, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Fine - that makes sense, and was what I would have done - hence reference to control-v (paste) - I see you copied {{COTWvoter}}, so there are lots of references to it now - these will need to be changed to {{subst:COTWvoter}} before next week to allow the template to be updated. I'll add a note to the template's talk page. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:21, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If you have time, could you start at the bottom of this list and replace {{COTWvoter}} (and any header) with {{subst:COTWvoter}} - I have started from the top. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:30, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, I finished before you got back - I changed the template just before I finished to add "You voted for" at the start though, so may go back and do it all again, again... -- ALoan (Talk) 16:12, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Definitely for next time; will only go back and redo if I have time & energy to spare. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:30, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Here is an example of how it looks now:

{{subst:COTWvoter}}

gives:

[edit] Culture of Greece

You voted for Culture of Greece, this week's Collaboration of the week. Please come and help it become a featured-standard article.

-- ALoan (Talk) 14:45, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Literature collaboration

Thanks for the tip-off. It might have taken me years to find that page on my own. Deb 17:28, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Neil Young

I've action some of your objections at Featured article candidates#Neil Young and left a question for you there. I'd appreciate the feedback to improve the article further. -- GWO

Thanks. -- GWO

[edit] LCOTW

Hi, Filiocht, thanks very much for the LCOTW invite. It's great work that you're doing, and I'll definitely be keeping an eye out. Please don't take it amiss if I don't vote, yet awhile! I could always pitch in on a selected article anyway, if I should have anything to contribute. It's just that, well, since pledging and tagging are mentioned on this page... each week I always imagine I'll be spending less time on Wikipedia and more on my day job (as I b.w. ought to), so I'm kind of reluctant to make Wikipedia commitments. A week isn't a very long time in my editing life, either, I'm very slow and pedantic (drove Giano to distraction with eternal fiddling on "John Vanbrugh"). I will watch the project, and might get braver about getting involved when I understand the system better.--[[User:Bishonen|Bish (Bosh)]] 16:46, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

  • Sure, and I'm very glad Oscar Wilde is getting attention. The article's long enough that people can quietly drop homophobic asides in it without anybody necessarily noticing, especially stuff could hide out in there before you structured it with headings. I remember removing bits from it in August about Wilde's "affected" paradoxes and how his writings have a "rather nasty suggestiveness" to "most people" (oh, yeah, nice attribution, that'll make it NPOV!). It had been there like forever.--[[User:Bishonen|Bish (Bosh)]] 18:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi Filiocht, thanks for the pointer with Hawksmoor, I'm going to tackle him next week; of late I've become somewhat addicted to editing, and it has to stop, for a few days anyway! The literature colab. looks interesting, not totaly my subject - but who know's what may come up. Regards Giano 10:17, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Great work on the LCOTW

Filiocht, well done on all your work on LCOTW - now that you've publicised it and got more people joined, it's looking up. In fact, I think it's deserving of a barnstar.

[edit] LCOTW banner thing

  • Apollogy accepted. I'm sorry I tend to lash out like that, it's a bad habit. The message was quite polite; it was just that if I'd wanted the message there I would have put it there myself. I have the LCOTW on my Watchlist; I just didn't like the idea that there was some unpaid debt I had.

So: Best wishes, and I'll see if I can't contribute anything to Oscar Wilde. -Litefantastic 14:55, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have one suggestion for the redesigned LCOTW banner. After "The current Literature Collaboration of the Week is XXXXX.", create a new line, and put the rest of the info in a smaller font. Personally, I don't think the last sentence is necessary, but I can live with it. FYI: If you want to see what all of the other current COTW banners look like, from the simple (magic) to the ugly (Gaming), to the very wordy (Countering Systemic Bias), check: User:GK/Collaborations. As you can see at the bottom, a few of the COTW's still need to create banners, including the [[WP:JCOTW]. IMHO: I think that more people would use a banner for WP:Bias if there was also a smaller version available (or even if the current version just got rid of the line and extra white-space at the top of the banner). I do, however, think that some of the other COTW's should think about using their Collaboration of the Fortnight idea, especially when they are tackling very large topics. [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 05:04, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Better now!
[To avoid the comma-itus, here is a suggested rewrite: "All those who are interested are invited to help improve this article. Please check this banner for the weekly LCOTW update."] [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 10:49, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ec. of Ireland

Well, I had thought that my splitting of the article nicely solves the problem. Essentially the main body of the Economy of the Republic of Ireland article now details exactly that - the 20th century Rep. of Ireland economy.

Meanwhile Economy of Ireland is for pre-partition, and a section on post-partition describing its effects and the divergent economies of NI and RoI. Of course one could also add the shared aspects of the economies in the 20th century, effects of EU etc. (no customs at the border for example).

The way I have split it does create a huge amount of work to do, but as far as I can see, the workload is entirely shifted to Economy of Ireland. I think the Economy of the Republic of Ireland is now a stronger article and should be able to be passed as an FA.

zoney ♣ talk 13:12, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes. OK. There is a problem with the title "Economy of the Republic of Ireland". How about Economy of Ireland in the 20th century, or something along those lines (to include the 21st C!) Alternatively, if we want a general Economy of Ireland article, it has huge amounts of work to be done before being a decent FAC, all the modern stuff needs summarised and put into its own article, and the earlier stuff needs expansion. Also NI needs to be better covered in a summary Economy of Ireland article. zoney ♣ talk 13:24, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I've moved the early stuff back to Economy of the Republic of Ireland. Obviously Economy of Ireland wants to summarise the entire island, north and south from early times up to the present. I don't think CGorman's article does this, but should we move it back to Economy of Ireland? zoney ♣ talk 13:28, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps this is just trying to work around the fact that the article as stands does not fit the bill? We should maybe move it back to Economy of Ireland, and withdraw the FAC nomination until some issues are resolved. zoney ♣ talk 13:38, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] re:congratulations

thank a lot, Filiocht, I do intend to do my best to honour the privilege. regards, dab 10:25, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Your Village pump edit

You made the following edit, which ended up at the wrong page: Village pump (news), instead of Wikipedia:Village pump (news). I've nominated the page for speedy deletion, and you might want to put this text in the proper place. Eugene van der Pijll 11:14, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Then check out Wikipedia:Goings-on in Literature and please add any updates you have. You can add it to your user page by using {{Wikipedia:Goings-on in Literature}}. Filiocht 10:13, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Edward Lovett Pearce

Hi Filiocht, I can't help much with the Irish literary contributions, but I've just written the above page, I've asked User:Jtdirl if he has any photos, he seems to have loads, and wondered if you do as well, as it looks a bit naked, and all the ones I can find are copyright. Not knowing Ireland at all, could you check there are no really huge cock-ups. Thanks Giano 08:49, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] COTW

Hey, thanks for the help adding tags to voter pages - I think we met around #25-30. Btw - you don't need to add a separate ==COTW== header - the template includes one already. --ALoan (Talk) 12:55, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No problem - I carried on and deleted most of them (I hope - it is easy to lose track when you are doing 50-odd edits)... Anyway, thanks once again. -- ALoan (Talk) 13:28, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] ICOTW

How about just choosing Architecture in Ireland if you are OK with that. After all, the other two nominations with two votes are Belfast which I nominated (I'd prefer AoI) and The Late Late Show (which you proposed, do you prefer it over AoI?).

Certainly such a decision process should not be repeated, but I suggest we "be bold" on this occasion where there is no consensus.

We can bring up the subject of what to do should this happen again.

The reason I prefer AoI is that if we do a good job, it could get to featured article status!

I do suggest that it be worked upon for two weeks.

Unless you would prefer to see the Late Late worked upon, I am happy to just boldly put up AoI as the ICOTW.

zoney ♣ talk 13:50, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Architecture of Ireland

Hi Filiocht I've solved the mystery of what makes Irish revival Palladianism different, you can't spot it from the outside, which is why it took me a time, its the more ornate baroqueish / rococoish interiors, while the English and European are restrained with cold grandeur (like the exteriors) the Irish are a complete riot.

I've been watching Architecture of Ireland and sitting on my hands, and not (well almost) touching it, until you Irish are all done with your collaboration. But if you want a pointer change the heading of that section (I'm an Italian so no axe to bear) to something less political like Palladianism on Ireland, then when you get to the latter half of the 18th century 'Georgian Ireland' (or something like that) then you can bang on all about Georgian Dublin etc. going into the neoclassical and the Victorian interpretations etc. Sorry - I don't mean to lecture! I've neber been able to mind my own business Giano 13:28, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Much better. You may not like it's history but Carrickfergus Castle needs a mention, its one of the most perfect examples of a Norman castle in Europe- telling how Norman French influences predominated architecture etc. St Patrick's Cathedral Dublin is special in design to Ireland, and St Patrick's in Killarney is very important as its by 'Pugin', so would lead well into Irish gothic. Its not clear from the page title is this all Ireland or just South. I will look at those biographies, but sadly this afternoon have to earn a living, less fun, but more lucrative. Giano 14:04, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC). PS Exactly how many Irish houses are claiming to be the prototype for the White House? PPS I seem to remember working on a stub on Ormande castle ages ago, it was all copyright though so has probably been deleted. It was the only Elizabethan style manor in Ireland, probably wants fact checking though.
Thanks for the vote - Giano 08:31, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Elevated tone of Restoration comedy

Thanks! Elevated like a man wearing a tub because he's lost his pants, I guess. Giano always refers to it as "your Restoration porn".--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 15:57, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Modernist poetry in English

Hi, Filiocht, I'll be delighted to have a read of "Modernist poetry" later tonight, it looks great! I went look just now, but got stuck on the Lead (sorry, going off on a tangent after a few words happens a lot when you invite the well-known Bishonen pedantry, but I'll read properly a little later, I'm looking forward to it.) Who was it that slated Victorian "poetic diction" (Lead) T. S. Eliot? It's kind of funny, the way Modernism comes back to a similar attack on the previous generation, and using the very same term, as Wordsworth used in the "Preface to Lyrical Ballads":

  • There will also be found in these volumes little of what is usually called poetic diction; I have taken as much pains to avoid it as others ordinarily take to produce it; this I have done for the reason already alleged, to bring my language near to the language of men, and further, because the pleasure which I have proposed to myself to impart is of a kind very different from that which is supposed by many persons to be the proper object of poetry.

Funny because the Victorians were regarded as post- or sub-Romantics, by themselves, by the Modernists, by us. The links for poetic diction in the Lead aren't that much help in giving a historical context. Maybe someone needs create a little Poetic diction stub, how about you? [Or Geogre, you multitudinous article-creating machine, if you're reading this, how about you? (Me, I have day-work work to do tonight, seriously. I'll get fired.)]--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 18:34, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Modernist poetry in English again

Filiocht, your Modernist poetry is beautiful, it's an experience reading it, I was positively moved. This has to be your masterwork so far. It reads as smooth as silk.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 03:35, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Again

I think it's perfect. The size I make 28.7 kb right now, also perfect, and with a growth margin. Believe me, nobody's going to think it's too long! Now you mention Pound's Browning ventriloquism, I remember it. He can really sound like he's chanelling Browning sometimes. I thought that tone kind of... hmmm... "fruity" is nastier than what I mean to say, but maybe you know what I mean (and maybe, from actually knowing the subject, you totally disagree): kind of jovially full-bodied. Those aren't my favorite Pound pieces, I like the Imagism. Anyway, the article's so ready for FAC. (You like to self-nominate it, huh? Hint, hint.)--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 16:26, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Palladian architecture

Thanks; It proved to a relatively painless experience, I haven't forgotten James Gandon I've gathered all the information, just need the time to write it. Giano 13:00, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Dem Modernists

Sorry for not getting in under the wire. From the talk page to the article, you can see why, I hope. Modernism is one of the things I took a great deal of coursework on, so I have in my head a narrative for its development that I'm fond of. Modernist Poetry is interesting in that it seems far more of a single piece with art and philosophy than other movements have been.

Your article is extremely well written, and it presents one of the narratives of the development of Modernist Poetry. Since I'm a complete cripple on researching these days, I can only offer unhelpful kvetching from the sidelines. Feel free to ignore whatever seems useless.

What I thought important and unaddressed was the importance of Symbolism on Pound, then Eliot and Yeats. I also thought the historical stress created by Freud and Marx was such that it drove artists into two other directions, but the single trope that summarizes things most of all is "order is gone." The aristocracy of birth and aristocracy of education both failed and died, and so Modernists in all forms struggled to find some way forward, some way of being responsible and hopeful in a time that seemed like the End of All. Some sought to free the mind, and others sought the new age of the machine (and hence, eventually, fascism, which Yeats and Pound both fell for), and others went for an individually stitched greatest hits of history (Eliot), and others to Marxism (Auden). At any rate, there was a real reason to find the Romantic vision of the poet-priest attractive and the Romantic vision of the healing sympathy useless. Symbolism is interesting, in that it allows people to claim to see the "under" coherence of the superficially fragmented, but each person seems to understand the "under" in a different way. Eliot seems to think that the underlying truth of which the symbol is emanent is, in fact, divine, or at least a lapsarian divine, while Pound seems to regard it as psychological, and Yeats seems to see a mystical gyre. That's why this one movement gets adapted by people of different temperaments, seems to me.

The other thing I thought was missing was the emphasis, formally, on beauty in fragment and on the ordinary (with the ordinary being the really ordinary, whether Paterson, NJ or the red wheelbarrow or the blackbirds of Stevens or the city fog of Eliot), rather than the extraordinary. There was no seeking for the sublime anymore, for the sublime had no power. Also formally, there was a desire to make poetry ultimately compact, to try to get the maximum meaning from the minimal space -- which is what makes the poetry so hard for novices to understand and what makes the "Notes to the Wasteland" such a big seller.

Anyway, these are all auxillary matters, but they're what I thought of. Geogre 22:49, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] KJV and Engl Lit

On that subject, a neuron fired. There is a very good, readable book by Northrop Frye called The Great Code, where he argues that the KJV is, very specifically, the nexus around which literary culture has been possible. He suggests that it is the single set of cultural and philosophical assumptions that has enabled literature in English to achieve conciseness, to develop the compressed metaphor, and the evocative symbolism that makes it special among world literatures. It's not an earth shaking book, but Frye can write, and what he says is certainly true. Geogre 16:58, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)


[edit] James Gandon

Could you just run your eye over James Gandon, I never feel totaly confident writing about places I have never seen, and am always worried that they are demolished/never built/not in the said location! I'm also a bit confused about Act of Union etc, we weren't taught about it where I went to school for some reason, strange because that was an opressed island too! Great job on Modernist poetry by the way. Giano 17:40, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

PS: You may want to make a comment at User talk:Maxx where a new user is planning some changes to the British biographies on Wikipedia. Giano 07:22, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Modernism

Oh, aye. It's a very cool article, definitely deserving of the praise. I look forward to seeing it on the front page sometime soon. [[User:Premeditated Chaos|PMC]] 03:26, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Bill's rep

Hi, I've written a new section about Bill on the stage vs. Bill the poet at Shakespeare's reputation, and shuffled the sections about and renamed them. Please check it out if you have the time.--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 21:02, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Irish categories of inconsistency"

I'd appreciate your comments at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Irish categories of inconsistency. User:Beland in a continuing drive to standardise categories on Wikipedia (a worthy goal) wishes to make some changes I am not altogether happy about. Concerning Northern Ireland and Northern Irish, I outright disagree with his choices. As regards the Transport vs. Transportation issue - I'm unhappy about it - but apparently all other categories use the latter. You seem to be knowledgeable and level-headed about the use of language - maybe you can help!

zoney ♣ talk 21:48, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Thank You

Thank you for your support, and for the friendly note on my talkpage! --Woggly 20:01, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations

Nice to see Modernist poetry in English get featured! It was a foregone conclusion, of course. Exceptionally cool article, I bet it's your baby. Condolences for not getting to say "versification" in it. :-( Can that be a hard word? It's not a pretty word, maybe—never considered it much before—but it's self-explanatory, isn't it? When I saw that, I did an emergency cleanup on Shakespeare's reputation: accolades --> praise, adulation --> worship. "Epitome" stays!! Wordsmyth doesn't have any remotely reasonable alternative (not even something as imprecise as "worship"). Anybody gives me a hard time over "epitome", I'll just put "apotheosis". ;-)--[[User:Bishonen|Bishonen (talk)]] 14:16, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Barnstar

I hereby award you this barnstar for your tireless contributions, including the amazing number of articles you've helped raise to featured standard, not to mention see featured on the main page. Also for your contributions to the Irish wikipedians' notice board and associated work, for being a model Irish wikipedian in general, and also a enthusiastic literature contributer! Great work, not to mention somewhat amazing! zoney ♣ talk 21:46, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Architecture

Personally, I think its about time the Architecture of Ireland found its way there too; along with some of your Irish literary giants Giano 10:14, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, having just read it I see your point; is there a way this can be achieved, a mass campaign, a word in someone's ear, how is the front page selected or is it just luck a throw of the dice? I'm sure Bishonen would join a crusade! Giano 12:05, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC) On second thoughts check out today's edit history of PA, are you sure you want that for a page of yours? Including the vandalism, if the sad sod thinks architecture is gay.......! Giano 12:39, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

OK, I requested it, on your own head be it, don't blame me if it gets altered out of all recognotion Giano 12:58, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

don't worry if abbey theatre makes it we'll mount a 24 hour vigil! Giano 14:03, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Just saw your latest message about being shot. Believe me, the thought had crossed my mind. Giano 21:39, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)