Talk:Filk music

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Contents

[edit] Ridicule

I reverted the change about filk ridicule because I can't see how that actually fits into the article. Also, I'm not convinced the information about Photoshop "filk" belongs in the filk music article.

Thoughts? --SarekOfVulcan 23:02, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Generally, I think that the narrower definitions of filk are more useful. Thus, filk is loosely described as the folk music of science-fiction fandom, on topics of broad interest to SF fandom and including both parodies and original material. Where we fall into a trap when defining filk is when we fail to recognize that not everything written by a filker is filk; contrariwise, not everything that is filk is written by a filker. Thus songs such as my own "You Are My Life", although a perfectly fine love song, isn't filk since it lacks any SFnal elements -- but "Love At First Sight" would be filk. And while Weird Al is not a filker, "Yoda" and "The Saga Begins" are filk. --Bill Roper 00:06, 10 January 2006 (UTC)
It's important to keep a sense of the divergent definitions of filk, so the What is filk? section includes the genre-ish definition, such as yours, as well as the sociological/cultural definition.--SDorn 07:00, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rocket Man

I think inclusion of a link to "Rocket Man" is inappropriate - although it qualifies as "found filk", it is by no means a good example of filk music.
WCFrancis 17:25, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Then we get into this huge back and forth about what constitutes filk. For my part, as it's based on a science fiction story, it's as much filk as Bill Roper's "Destroyer" or Brenda Sutton's "In A Gown Too Blue". We don't have that many examples on Wikipedia anyway of other songs. --khaosworks 18:00, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

One that I would suggest would be "Hope Eyrie" - possibly linking to the article on Leslie Fish.
- As for defining filk, Bill Sutton once said: "Filk is anything that happens at a filksing."
--WCFrancis 20:53, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You're welcome to add it - there isn't an article for it on Wikipedia. --khaosworks 22:19, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)
I agree with removing Rocket Man as non-filk. I'd like to have some examples where it's permissible to upload the complete lyrics, which might not be ok for "Hope Eyrie" (Leslie's on Kay Shapero's blanket permission list for non-commercial copying, but the GFDL permits some types of commercial use). I'm thinking of uploading all of Mike Rubin's songs to Wikisource and then pointing to them from the filk article: 1) they are good songs, 2) Mike gave blanket permission for copying as long as attribution is present; 3) Mike died in 1995, and while his songs are on a few personal websites, Wikisource is maybe a more lasting place to preserve them; 4) Mike being dead sidesteps the issue of picking favorites among living filkers. Sound ok? Phr 01:08, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)Phr
I'm not going to object - but you really need to make the copyright situation clear when you do or else you might run up against people who'll start complaining about it. --khaosworks 01:13, Jun 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] That Weird Al song

You know, the one based on American Pie and The Phantom Menace: "My, my, this here Anakin guy..."

As I understand it, Weird Al has stated that "The Saga Begins" is not filk.--SarekOfVulcan 00:22, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
so what? If "Filk is anything at a filksing, or of a subject interesting to those of filk", then it's filk, right? If the definition of filk is determined to be as loose as anyone wants, so that anything even remotely sci-fi-related can be filk, all one has to do is play it at a filksing and it's filk. If you consider ROcket Man filk, then that Weird Al song sure it. Or your definition is silly. 167.239.215.204 17:39, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
Has Al stated why it isn't filk? Also, Yoda should be considered. --emurphy42 05:12, 10 December 2005 (UTC)


From what I've heard (third hand at best) Weird Al objects to any of his work being described as filk simply because he considers himself to be a professional and considers filkers to be amateurs. While this distinction is spurious it seems to be his motivation and I doubt that any relevants facts to the contrary will change his mind. He seems to interpret the characterization of his work as "filk" as a disparagement.
A broader issue is whether someone's work should be classified based on objective criteria over their personal objections. Personally in this case I would say that a number of his works are filk whether he likes it or not. He can go sputter off whatever polemics he likes. I would not classify him as a filker (both because he has a body of other work that is not filk, and because he objects to the classification). However, the classification of his work is and should be largely beyond his control. (Just as he shouldn't be able to control other opinions about his work --- demanding that you appreciate or adore it or whatever).JimD 19:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Hmmm...

I hate to say this, but this article does come across as mildly exclusivist - along the lines of "if you have to ask, you'll never know". Someone coming across the term, not recognising it, and deciding to look it up on Wikipedia might be a little bit frustrated by this article as it leaves out a lot. For example, which never-published essay saw the original use of the term? (And if it's not known, then how is it known that this was indeed the first usage?) Sources really ought to be cited, even for things like this. Loganberry (Talk) 04:00, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Agreed - I've addressed this. UrbanTerrorist 02:39, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

It's better now, certainly... but the article still doesn't explain about the "never-published essay". If it was never published, how is it known that it existed in the first place? Presumably either the person who wrote it or someone who read it has written that it did - in which case, details (or a specific footnote) need to be given in the article. Loganberry (Talk) 02:03, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I'm not certain about this myself - I've been involved in fandom and filking for over 30 years, and I've never heard of the "Never published essy" myself. Of course this doesn't mean that it didn't happen... I will try and contact a couple of people who have been involved longer, and see what I can find out. I know quite a few of the people who were involved in the early history who are still alive. UrbanTerrorist 17:02, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Thank you; if you could find out something about it, it would be ideal. I'm not doubting the essay's existence; I just don't feel comfortable with a completely unsubstantiated assertion like that. I think the reference should eventually be dropped from the article unless something can be dug up, simply leaving the Karen Kruse Anderson reference. Loganberry (Talk) 22:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Will see what I can do - my daughter is in for major surgery right now, so most of the next month will be a write off. UrbanTerrorist 01:34, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Wikipedia is NOT a list of links. We're going to need to shorten this down drastically.--SarekOfVulcan 00:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

To clarify, the largest part of that article is a list of "representative filk songs", and the next largest is a list of Filkers, whether or not represented on Wikipedia. I don't think this is a good format for the article, unless you can give me a couple of counter-examples.--SarekOfVulcan 01:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, the article does need filling out, and I have the material, but probably won't be able to do a decent job of it for the next month, my little girl is in hospital - she's hoping to be out in time to see the next Harry Potter movie. UrbanTerrorist 23:40, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Names

I'm not sure about the propriety of naming people - I added a lot today, however all of the additions were those who are public figures (i.e. they've either been guests at a con, put out a tape or appeared on one, are a public figure in an organization devoted to filk - such as ConCom, or mentioned in some other way - Kay Shapero runs a news group).

Also, I'm not quite sure what to do about Dr. Jane's listing - I'm told she is undergoing a sex change operation (I haven't seen her for a couple of years), which is going to make meeting her again REALLY strange, but hey, that's her or his choice.

I think this is the safest way to work things. UrbanTerrorist 03:20, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Personally, I would redact the entire list. It serves no useful purpose to the entry, and takes up a huge amount of space. --Autographedcat 17:08, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Why not just create new pages for "List of Filkers" and "List of Filk Songs"? There is plenty of precedent for this in Wikipedia. EdStauff 03:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Reasonable idea. I think someone may have done so, but it may be largely empty. Someone who takes that on gets my admiration for the updating it'd require!--SDorn 00:25, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Filk Songs

I pulled out my song book tonight and added a bunch of songs, sorted by topic. I tried to pick songs that are representative of the wide range of filk and reasonably well known, however filk does tend to be regional - for example I never get to Southern Cons, and am probably missing a lot of good music, but I think caught the most popular topics.

I remember hearing Scott Snyder? doing a song about a thief, which would be a good add to the Gaming Section. I know that Bill Roper did one that I think was called "One Last Battle" but my copy of "The Grim Roper" expired of old age and I didn't keep the tape. Also there's been several C.S. Lewis filks - I have a copy of "Susan at 18" but not the author's name. There's a fair bit of Dorsai filk out there, I know a Dorsai Irregular or two, will look into that as well.

And that reminds me that I missed adding John Hall to the list of filkers - Bear will kill me <G>.

UrbanTerrorist 04:10, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] GOOD LORD...

... no, really.

[edit] Organization desperately needed!

I did a bit of shuffling things around this evening to keep the definitional discussion together, as well as pointing out the tensions in the different approaches to defining filk. I also added some documentation, including about Lee Jacobs' essay in the 50s.

There needs to be more reorganization, though, and more fleshing out of filking as a cultural activity, especially the overlaps: the ties to the Dorsai Irregulars in U.S. fandom, links to the SCA, the EFDSS links to British filking, etc. There could be more substantive discussion of the musical traditions that show up in filking. There also needs to be links to MP3 download sites, so readers can get a taste of the best of downloadable filk.

My sense (which may or may not be right) is that a list of filkers' names is less useful to potential readers than external links to filkers' pages, especially those with downloadable audio files.--SDorn 01:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted material from definition section

For the record, here is the material deleted from the page, because the links to other pages seemed to better capture the range of definitions for filking:

A broadly inclusive definition gives filk as "A form of music not identified by its harmonic, rhythmic, rhyming, cultural, or similarly traditional determining qualities. It defies classification by regional origin or harmonic, melodic, or rhythmic traits; it is -rather- a form of music based upon its lyrical content. Regardless of musical style, filk songs are those that are about or inspired by science fiction, fantasy, horror, science, and/or subjects of interest to fans of speculative fiction." Given the last clause in this definition, a filk song can be about anything. To quote Pegasus award winning southern filker Bill Sutton, "Filk is anything that happens at a filk sing."

The first comes from Debbie Ohi's What is Filk page, I think, and while I've heard Bill say something like the second quotation, I don't remember his using that wording exactly, I couldn't find documentation (not even on Bill's page! he refers to the Interfilk definitional sausage page), and there are similar sentiments captured in the external links. But maybe I'm wrong in that judgment.

[edit] Naming Names

I think, on the whole, that a list of names isn't needed. (And glancing at the list, I see obvious omissions of people who I'd expect to see (for example, only one of a husband and wife) and inclusion of people who are not filkers by any reasonable definition.

Links to any pages of people named or included would be far more useful and appropriate.

A new Wikipedia category, "Filkers," has been created.Shsilver 13:33, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see it.--SDorn 07:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Category:Filkers.Shsilver 12:33, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
  • OK, I've been away (and sick also) for a while. Just who was it who was on the list who weren't filkers? UrbanTerrorist 04:40, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
That was me who deleted the list.--SDorn 07:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of titles and names

The list of internal Wikipedia links corresponding to individual song titles and filkers seemed inappropriate for Wikipedia, when the vast majority of names had no pages and probably never will, especially given the advice in the five pillars of Wikipedia that Wikipedia is not "a grouping of links (whether internal or external)." In the next few days, I'll add selected links to external websites and suggestions for searching for individual filkers. --SDorn 00:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Two deleted links noted here (with the reasoning in parentheses):

  • Harry Potter filks (too idiosyncratic—there are many such partial collections, and they tend to go out of date pretty quickly. Maureen O'Brien's attempt to collect online filk was wonderful, but it is now several years out of date)
  • lyrics collection (no collector description, no evidence of comprehensiveness, and an opt-out approach towards artists' rights—it is not clear that the collector has the rights to be publishing the lyrics of all the songs listed on the web site)

--SDorn 01:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Another pruned bit: In recent years, the genre has given rise to such subgenres as anifilk, a song (usually comedic in nature) written about anime. Some anifilk artists are Jared Claxon and Luke Ski. Subgenres are a matter of considerable opinion, and we could be headed into another laundry-list... --SDorn 01:47, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

NESFA removed from key internal links (the See also section) (though others can argue!) because that list is best trimmed to a few entries that casual readers would find clearly connected to the topic to help provide context.--SDorn 06:59, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What needs fleshing out (I think)

"Styles and Subjects" needs something that is more rounded and in an authoritative, encyclopedia-like voice.

"An Ethnomusicological/Cultural Perspective" might be renamed "Community" (the content would be the same, I think) and could discuss the practices of filking as a social network of listeners, performers, and creators who see textual and musical poaching as well as creation as legitimate acts of community. There should be a more complete discussion of the ties between the Dorsai Irregulars and filking, as well as the overlaps and subtle differences between filking, SCA bard activities, Dr. Demento fans, and the like. (This partly captures the sentiment of Filker0, whose comment on this point was lost.) --SDorn 02:24, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

This might be straying into original research. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 02:39, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Solomon's masters thesis already exists, and there are plenty of writings about the filk community. Ethnomusicology may just be my academic wrapper on that. --SDorn 04:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Others have pointed out that Sally and Barry Childs-Helton have already written/talked about filking as an object of ethnomusicology. --SDorn 14:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
That section should also mention the phenomenon of Folk Musicians (Carla Ulbrich, Joe Giacoio, et alia) finding filk and discovering that, whoa nelly, here's an actual living ORAL TRADITION, whee fun yay let me join!! Etc. --EloiseMason 16:56, 2/14/06

[edit] Holding place for cultural-discussion links

  • Solomon H. Davidoff, "Filk:" A Study of Shared Musical Traditions and Related Phenomena among Fan Groups (M.A. thesis, Bowling Green State University, 1996). Bowling Green State University Thesis 6673. (At BGSU, call no. LD 4191 O6 No 6673.)
  • Henry Jenkins, Textual Poachers: Television Fans and Participatory Culture (New York: Routledge, 1992), Chapter 8: "'Strangers No More We Sing': Filk Music, Folk Culture, and the Fan Community."
  • Roger D. Launius, "Got Filk? Lament For Apollo In Modern Science Fiction Folk Music" 5th International Astronautical Congress 2004; Vancouver; Canada; 4-8 Oct. 2004. pp. 1-11. abstract

--SDorn 12:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted links

Links deleted because (I think!) they don't give a clear sense of what filk is if someone comes across them:

This is a tough judgment call in some cases, but my best judgment is that the list of download links needs to be pretty slim and give casual surfers a very good idea of what filk is rather than trying to be compleatist. There are only two artists currently named in the article. One is there (Ookla the Mok) as an exception to the general acoustic-vocal pattern of filking, and the other (Tom Smith) has a web site with a range that really does, truly represent filk (in the sense of, if this is the one website that a casual browser comes across, will I be comfortable that this artist is representing filk?). All the other download links are to multi-artist collections. (Definitely need feedback here on judgment call.)--SDorn 20:15, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who is Russell Frushtick?

I've removed the line:

Legendary filmmaker Russell Frushtick contributed the first known filk song, for an animated program called, Radtke's Heroes.

This appears to be spurious. There is no listing at IMDB for Russell Frushtick, no listing for a movie called "Radtke's Hereos", and no supporting evidence at Google. There is however a video game reviewer named Russell Frushtick.

Katy's explanation (moved here for later discussion): Moved the paragraph " Legendary filmmaker Russell Frushtick contributed the first known filk song, for an animated program called, Radtke's Heroes." to "History" (did anyone hear about this?)--SDorn 07:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Katy: what's the German of Radtke's Heroes?--SDorn 07:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Besides - no one now knows who wrote the first Filk song. It appears that we can probably blame the Futurians for it (like so many other things) but since the perpetrators have mostly left us for the "Great Filk Sing in the Sky" we'll never know.
UrbanTerrorist 05:03, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Agree with the deletion by UrbanTerrorist. --SDorn 02:35, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Yikes! Sherman, next time read everything in the changes list, all right? I'd have no problem mentioning Frushtick, but need a bit more in context (maybe the German for the program title, at least)?--SDorn 07:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

As already mentioned to Sherman - it wasn't me who put that paragraph *in* ... I just moved it from the very first paragraph to "History", because I thought, if it had to be in there at all, that was the better place. It had been put in on 18th January by someone with IP 216.105.163.3

--Katyhh, 15 February 2006

[edit] History

I've gone over the history section again - it seemed to me to be somewhat out of order, and it was showing the evidence of muliple edits by mulitple editors. I think it's now pretty straight, but hey, it's 11:00 PM on a Saturday night and I had to get up for work today, so I missed some beauty sleep (and at nearly 50 I REALLY need it).

One major change is I moved the Futurians to the top as the first recorded writers of filk - to my best knowledge no one has managed to come up with anything written earlier than 1940, so they get the honor of being first.

Hmmn... yes, the prior version is not strictly chronological, because the first paragraph in the section is an introduction, emphasizing the larger theme of filk as a cultural phenomenon. Strict chronology is pretty dry. What do other folks think? --SDorn 06:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
The intro should be covered in the introduction to the article in my opinion.
UrbanTerrorist 23:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

There may be some disagreement about the changes that lead to "Filk" specific conventions, however it is accurate, in other words I witnessed much of it, including the Con Chair who was willing to give us the men's washroom. Since I never did figure out what Ian actually liked, I never managed to get even with him over that - but I've got a long memory and I'll get him sooner or later!

The mention of Ad Astra seems idiosyncratic. On that basis, we could identify a number of semi-hostile (joking?) reactions to filk, from Minnesota to ... well, anywhere. I don't know if Solomon Davidoff's masters thesis discusses that part of oral history, but it would be the logical source to go for such detail. I'm not really sure it belongs, though, because it seems more anecdotal than analytical.
OK, I'll try a rewrite on that section, later tonight.
UrbanTerrorist 23:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Is there some documentation of the extensiveness of housefilks? I know they exist at least sporadically but doubt that there's sufficient justification to say they exist in most areas, as in the current version.
Hum - well I know they are common in the Toronto area - we have at least one a month. As to whether any doumentation exists, well there's a mailing list, but I don't know that anyone archives all the messages.
UrbanTerrorist 23:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Further thought--maybe the discussion of housefilks belongs to the ethnomusicology section.--SDorn 06:51, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I'll leave this version in place for a little while, to see if anyone responds to these issues. --SDorn 06:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

To UrbanTerrorist: Rich Brown's freemars.org filk calendar used to be a great place to go for that, but he had something happen and took it down. I hear he's planning on putting it back up, but know no details. --EloiseMason 23:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Given D'Glenn Arthur's suggestion of a timeline and other comments on LJ, I've restored the earlier introduction and created a draft timeline below. --SDorn 19:01, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Greatest need right now: material on 1940s and early 1950s; other stuff from 1970s; events, especially history, outside North America.--SDorn 19:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we really need feedback from outside of North America, and also from the older fen. I don't know how lucky we will be with the thirties, but there should be a few of us from the forties, fifties and sixties still around. Urbanterrorist 01:50, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I have contact information for Karen Anderson (who I spoke to at Consonance and who would be delighted to answer questions on things like Poul and Gordy's contributions to filking from their Mpls days); I also have contact info for Juanita Coulson who would likely also answer a lot of your historical questions. If you want material on the Futurians and filk, you should try speaking to Fred Pohl who is in the Chicago area. I can scare up his contact info if you're serious about this.Bill Roper 14:19, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Draft timeline

This is a draft of a timeline (right now, format seriously problematic). Please contribute to this (check Help:EasyTimeline syntax for help) and when it looks decent and has 5-10 entries, I'll shift it into the main article.--SDorn 13:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

--SDorn 13:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh blast. Adding a second text line messes everything up. Help!--SDorn 00:01, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

How does this sample look, Sherman? I have not yet read TFM to know how to make it behave more like I want, but this one will let you enter multiple items.


FilkerGEM 03:32, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Nice! --SDorn 03:38, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, very nice, but it cuts off the right hand side, how do we fix that? Also is it possible to have multiple lines per year, some years may have more than one occurence. Also I've changed font size to medium - was too small for me to read before! UrbanTerrorist 02:52, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I have not really had time to work on it, but check out http://newped2.auckland.ac.nz/exe/exe/timeline/form.html for a graphical interface to EasyTimeLine's stuff. I was ablt to make a much-improved version, which I want to work on more before uploading it. The issue has to do with absolute and relative positioning - changing the font size changes how much is cut off. FilkerGEM 17 April 2006


[edit] swapped History and Styles & Subjects sections

I swapped the "History" and "Styles and Subjects" sections. I felt that for someone who wasn't already familiar with filk, the Styles and Subjects section would be more relevant and interesting, and thus should come first.

Makes sense to me. --SDorn 00:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defining filk as parody

"Lkjhgfdsa" has added the line "Filk can also be a parody of a preexisting song." Obviously this opens a perennial can of worms. In any event, this proposed definition is misformulated, whether one accepts its premise or not; filk (as opposed to "a filk song") is not "a parody" of any particular song.

For now I'll back this change out. We should have some discussion on whether the "filk = parody" idea merits discussion in the definition section. GMcGath 10:43, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

The songfic article states very clearly filks are usually parodies. Perhaps it is in need of edit?--Lkjhgfdsa 23:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

My dear I have written quite a few songs, and only two of them were parodies. I will admit that this is mostly because I am such a lousey guitar player that learning someone else's song is too difficult and time consuming <GRIN>. However a lot of filkers I know HATE parodies. I will edit the Songfic article. UrbanTerrorist 02:55, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
OK, I fixed that, and added a note in the Songfic discussion page. UrbanTerrorist 03:03, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Culture bit

User:EdStauff added a paragraph some weeks ago that I just edited to trim the reference to unspecified filkers who were nurtured from novice to polished. Are there any specific examples that might be used to add that in? My brain's running low on oil this afternoon... --SDorn 17:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent additions

Looks like the Brobdingnagian Bards have been by, with two new links. The link to their own site is probably OK, as they do some filk, but I've deleted the link to Mage Records, as they don't even mention filk on their home page, and their connection to filk through the Bards is very attenuated compared to the other publishers listed.

If others disagree, it can be put back. GMcGath 13:43, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Link to Google

Admittedly I am not fully aware of the practices for articles like this, but is it really necessary to have a link to the google search for filk+mp3? I'll leave it in for now, but I think it ought to be removed. Sopoforic 22:22, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted it; we've got plenty of real links without adding Google searches. It can always be put back, of course. GMcGath 16:45, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
That's fine with me. --SDorn 12:45, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Trekkies" film

I removed the reference to *Trekkies* because, unless someone can explain why it's critically important, I'm not sure it makes sense to include minor nonfiction references to filk. There are also the occasional news story about filk (e.g., about the 2006 Consonance, if I remember correctly), but I don't think that every reference needs to be in a Wikipedia entry. Since I haven't seen the film, I'll be happy to learn if my supposition is wrong and if it was a substantive segment with interesting insight. --SDorn 12:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

Not directly relevant to this article, but it seems like the best place to mention it. I've suggested a merger of the Steve Macdonald and WorlDream articles. Discussion can happen on the talk pages of either of those articles. GMcGath 00:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maureen O'Brien's site: link deleted back

Deleted the link, because the whole site is now 404.

If that's temporary, feel free to put it back! -- Aleksej S.

Thanks. Luna Santin 12:36, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It turns out that the site has been relocated in 2005, and is now at http://suburbanbanshee.net/ . It's still too old (a lot of 404s), though it might make sense to check if http://suburbanbanshee.net/filk/index.html is still good enough. AVRS 18:37, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pruning external links

Someone's added a cleanup tag expressing concern about the external links. While most of them are of good quality, it can certainly be argued that the sheer quantity violates the guideline on external links that "External links should be used sparingly and kept to a minimum."

Here are some of my thoughts, in sequence.

The "Filking culture and history" links can be reduced. The list of conventions should be kept, but perhaps it should get its own article. Audio files -- I've always been a bit uneasy about listing those which require registration. Maybe not for any good reason. Recording companies and retailers -- I'd hate to cut those out. Community: Maybe that can be reluctantly eliminated. Awards and funds: Keep. Miscellaneous: Most of those could reluctantly be cut. With the exception of a few low-quality links, I don't like removing anything, but as the guidelines say, this shouldn't be a directory. Comments? GMcGath 20:28, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Both DAG Productions and Firebird Arts and Music are listed twice. I don't know where the best place for them is, but someone should pick a place and cut the dupes. -Sopoforic 06:47, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
I've done that. I also dropped two links to German-language sites, per the guidelines; best that they should be cut by the hand of a friend. :) GMcGath 12:50, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
The DAG Productions link to a live feed is back. Is there a reason to keep that, as opposed to either listing others, noting the phenomenon with the other high-tech arrangements, or just deleting it? --SDorn 20:18, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Tregoweth removed all but one of the external links, and I put most of them back. I'll go through and cut most of them later after checking into them, since the link section really is far too large. If anyone has links they think should definitely stay, make a case here. I plan to keep the conventions at the least, although it may be better to move them into the body of the article somewhere. Other ideas are welcome. --Sopoforic 09:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I've removed (another!) duplicate link to DAG Productions. I also removed the links to Tom Smith Online and the Brobdingnagian Bards site since both of these have their own articles and are listed in Category:Filkers already. I'll be removing more presently. --Sopoforic 09:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I removed several links that were already present in more appropriate places in the body of the article, and changed a couple of the external links to citations, since that's clearly what they were meant to be. I'm tempted just to cut completely the list of specialty retailers and publishers, although it might be appropriate to write somethign about them (the publishers, at least) in the article. --Sopoforic 09:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Exams prevented me from finishing pruning these, and Tregoweth removed the whole external links section again. This is correct, really, so I've only restored the conventions section (moved outside of external links, since it didn't really belong there) and a few links which seemed most valuable to me. What needs to be done is to include those things that are notable in the article--probably a small section about the existence of specialty publishers and such, with links to prominent ones, wouldn't be amiss, if they are really important. My unfortunate ignorance of the subject prevents me from adding such a thing myself at this time, so I'll leave them out until I get more time to research, or someone else comes along. --Sopoforic 11:28, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I see it's been half of a year since this was discussed, so this may be immaterial, but amongst other things the rec.music.filk FAQ (which is already linked to) does have a list of purveyors and publishers and similar things, so they probably don't need to be found in the article. Anansii 07:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

It would be nice to have footnote references all over the text, so statements cannot be called unsourced, and it is easier to translate knowing that everything is cited. Many to all of the external links can then be turned into footnotes. --AVRS 20:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Editing odd stuff

Removed 'circular-reasoning' paragraph added by FroggySkunthorpe. The point was made in the section that this is a cultural definition, not one based on strict textual logic. --SDorn 20:11, 12 July 2007 (UTC)