Talk:FIDE

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[edit] ELO rating system

Why doesn't the link to Elo rating (system) work?

Because the article is just called Elo rating :) --Camembert
Ok Thanks... I'm kind of new with this, so not everything goes right...
Don't worry, it takes everyone a bit of time to get used to things. --Camembert

[edit] Highest body in chess

I've removed the following:

It used to be the highest body in chess but respected IOC rulings.

FIDE still is the highest body in chess. As I understand it, the IOC recently recognised them as such. They adopted IOC anti-drug rules, but I don't think there have been any "rulings". --Camembert

Can someone explain why this adoption of IOC's anti-drug rules is important in chess? It's not like steroids make you any more intelligent. RedWolf 03:45, Oct 31, 2004 (UTC)

well, Camembert, according to Karpov, it would not be the worst thing to have FIDE replaced by a more capable organization. He successfully called upon IOC to make Kirsan understand he is undertaking outrageous actions. Quote A. Karpov: Kirsan: "I am the president of chess and you are only the world champ!" Karpov "look Kirsan, you're wrong: I am the world champ and you are only the president!". this was said before the Kamsky-Karpov match in Elista, where Kirsan unilaterally changed match rules to his liking. (slightly abbreviated) Frank A

That's as maybe, but what does it have to do with the IOC? --Camembert
This Kirsan guy would not mess with IOC when Karpov wrote the complaint letter to IOC, but I am not sure whether he is legally bound to. Frank A

Well, I admit I've never heard anything about this incident you're referring to - I daresay if you could give a bit more precision than the sentence I took out of the article, it would be fine to mention. One thing I would say, though: whatever its faults (and it has plenty of them), there is no credible alternative to FIDE as the governing body of chess. To say, therefore, that FIDE "used to be the highest body in chess", implying it isn't any longer, is wrong. --Camembert

[edit] FIDE Handbook for Chess

I have forwarded many emails to FIDE for Handbook of Chess on FIDE web site. FIDE Chess Hand book is available in piece wise and same is not available in single file. vkvora 18:37, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] lyumzhinov - controversial figure

I have deleted "a controversial figure, with question marks over the sources of the money he has donated to FIDE, and accusations against him that he has not paid promised prize money among other things."

Such accusations need to be sourced and stood up.

BlueValour 19:44, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] May 2006 Turin meeting

The date mentioned has long since passed, so this section needs to be updated by someone with the relevant information:

Burundi, Ghana and Ivory Coast have been temporarily suspended from membership in FIDE because of their failure to meet their financial obligations. Their memberships will be permanently revoked at the meeting in Turin, Italy on May 27, 2006 if they have not paid their dues by that time.

What happened at the meeting in Turin? Were the 3 memberships permanently revoked or not? --Kuribosshoe 05:26, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move to World Chess Federation (closed)

This is (old) discussion for a rename to World Chess Federation. For discussion of rename to FIDE, see #Requested move below. Peter Ballard (talk) 02:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Move. World Chess Federation is the official English name of this organization. According to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English), the title should be in English. Therefore this article should be renamed. --Neo-Jay (talk) 16:08, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Move. The organisation themselves use the requested name of the article as their official name in English (or i could just say per nom). EJF (talk) 17:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. Use the official English name in the English language Wikipedia. Or as per above. --203.220.171.83 (talk) 09:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support The organization's official website lists this as the English name (although wouldn't the translation of the name be "International Federation of Chess" or maybe "International Chess Federation"?), and Wikipedia urges using the English name if there is an official one. TJ Spyke 23:41, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment. In this page, FIDE does refers to itself as International Chess Federation. I also think International is a more accurate translation than World. --Neo-Jay (talk) 23:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
      • Well, the logo on that same page says "World Chess Federation". It could be argued that the FIDE handbook is more official than the official logo, but it doesn't seem to me that FIDE is very positive about this. FIDE in English is just FIDE. Quale (talk) 16:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose. The move request is well intentioned, but moving to either World Chess Federation or International Chess Federation would be a bad idea. The organization is very rarely called anything but FIDE in English. The standard encyclopedic reference in English, David Vincent Hooper & Ken Whyld The Oxford Companion to Chess uses the entry FIDE. Harry Golombek Golombek's Encyclopedia of Chess has the entry under FIDE. Anne Sunnucks The Encyclopedia of Chess has it under the entry "Fédération Internationale des Échecs" as we do, with both "F.I.D.E." and "International Chess Federation" being a "see Fédération Internationale des Échecs". The page should be either left where it is or moved to FIDE, with the redirects currently in place from World Chess Federation and International Chess Federation left as is. (A move to FIDE would help linking a lot, as the piped link to avoid linking to the redirect is hard to type.) I invite you to try a google test or to search wikipedia. Either way you'll find that FIDE is the name used in English to refer to this organization. Quale (talk) 04:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Support some possible rename. Quale has a good point about renaming it "FIDE", and that may be the best. My second choice would by "World Chess Federation", since tht is sometimes used in English. I slightly oppose "International Chess Organization/Federation", although it is probably a more literal translation, it is rarely called that by native English speakers. Several have made the point about WP:ENGLISH, so I agree with some sort of channge. Bubba73 (talk), 05:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
    • I can't fully agree with that interpretation of WP:ENGLISH. It says that the name used should be 1) the common name used in English, 2) a name where an English speaker would expect to find the article and one used by other English language encyclopedias. Neither World or International is a name commonly used by by English speakers for FIDE, and I know of no English language encyclopedia that puts the article on FIDE under either of those titles. As I see it, WP:ENGLISH requires that the article stay as is (because Fédération Internationale des Échecs is the official name) or be moved to FIDE (the name overwhelmingly preferred in English). Before any such move to a translated English title is considered, I request that move supporters provide some examples of other English language encyclopedias that use their preferred name as the main entries for the organization. Quale (talk) 16:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose rename to "World Chess Federation", because that is not it is generally called in English, as stated by Quale. Don't care either way about a rename to "FIDE". Peter Ballard (talk) 10:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
    • p.s. for another international organisation more commonly refered to by its French name, see Médecins Sans Frontières. The US name, Doctors without Borders, is only a redirect to Médecins Sans Frontières, and rightly so. Peter Ballard (talk) 10:56, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
      • comment. But Fédération Internationale des Échecs is also not it is generally called in English. Your own logic will also lead to strongly opposing maintain its current name. And a distinction for Médecins Sans Frontières is that it does not use Doctors without Borders as its official English name (at least I don't find an English name at its official website). But World Chess Federation does have a official English name. --Neo-Jay (talk) 11:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
        • The official USA [1], Australian [2] and Canadian [3] MSF sites all have a logo with the French name followed by the English name (exactly like http://www.fide.com by the way). Also, if "World Chess Federation" is an official translation, when did this become official? I am guessing it is fairly recent. Anyway, while it is true I never hear it called "Fédération Internationale des Échecs", I also never hear it called "World Chess Federation". It is always "FIDE". Peter Ballard (talk) 11:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
          • So your argument is to rename it to FIDE, right? --Neo-Jay (talk) 11:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
            • I slightly prefer "Fédération Internationale des Échecs" because it is the traditional correct name (as with "Médecins Sans Frontières"). But like I said originally, I won't object to a rename to "FIDE". Peter Ballard (talk) 11:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Comment At present, I favor renaming it to FIDE the most, but as far as "World Chess Federation", The USCF Official Rules of Chess (Just and Burg), page xxiii calls it the "World Chess Federation, and then gives the French name and the FIDE abbreviation in parentheses. But after that the call it FIDE. Bubba73 (talk), 16:34, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
"The Official Rules of Chess" by Eric Schiller is similar - on page 15 it first calls it the "World Chess Federation (FIDE)" and then uses FIDE. Bubba73 (talk), 18:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose move to World Chess Federation. Given that the overwhelmingly most common term for the organization is FIDE, and it's pronounced as an acronym, I'd therefore support a move to FIDE; I was going to propose that myself, but am happy to see that User:Quale's beaten me to it. To clarify via Google searches:
FIDE gets 781,000 web hits and 120,000 news hits
"World Chess Federation" gets 58,000 web hits and 2,060 news hits
"International Chess Federation" gets 21,000 web hits and 2,040 news hits
"Fédération Internationale des Échecs" gets 5,000 web hits and 269 news hits
Normally I'd be for spelling it out, but I think our specific naming conventions support FIDE in this instance, à la NASA. Regards, --DeLarge (talk) 15:06, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment There appears to be a consensus for a page move to FIDE --Lox (t,c) 20:52, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose to the move to "World Chess Federation". The most important english publications (e.g. www.chessbase.com) use FIDE as the official name, even if it is a French acronym. So my best would be to move to "FIDE", and my second-best would be to keep it as it is. We can always specify in the lead that the official english-name is World Chess Federation. SyG (talk) 15:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Closing - I'm closing this discussion (because there is clearly no consensus to move), and opening a new one (below) for a rename to FIDE (which has a lot more support). Peter Ballard (talk) 02:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion of history

I've done a big edit, and removed "please expand" and "needs citations" tags. I've left in the for the moment two blocks of commneted out-material: acollection of useful references, and the previous version's summary of the most recent events - please DON'T delete them for a few weeks.

Two things I think need to be discussed:

  • Should we include any discussions of FIDE's performance? Some top players (not just Kasparov by any means) have been quite scathing.
  • There is a lot of overlap with various articles about the World Chess Championship. It's hard to avoid this since managing the championship is FIDE most visible job. I've tried to minimise duplication by concentrating on politics and other circumstances rather than the play. Philcha (talk) 00:25, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet Chess Federation and Cold War

Peter Ballard has removed the following:

which thought it had the right to call the shots because it contributed a very large share of FIDE's budget and Soviet players dominated the world rankings - in effect they treated chess as an extension of the Cold War

on the grounds that it's "speculation".

[4] says:

  • "... but in those days, the government considered anyone who left USSR territory a traitor, whose name should disappear forever from the pages of the national press."
  • "... This is a provocation, a provocation" (quoting the USSR Minister of Sports on the televised Euwe-Sosonko mini-match)
  • " ... the Soviet Union was at that time not just a chess superpower – it was the most powerful chessplaying country in the world."
  • "... Soviet delegation leaders, who were ready to press one line and

one line only: the one that had been worked out beforehand."

If support is needed specifically for the phrase "... Cold War":

  • [5] or [6] will do.
  • See also the cited "Campo's Legacy": (a) "Just before the elections (for FIDE president), he (Campo) was tipped off that former world champion Mikhail Botvinnik had sent a telex with instructions that the Soviet bloc vote of some 20 countries be given to the Yugoslav candidate, Bozidar Kazic. ... Soviet Chess Federation president and Double Hero astronaut Vitaly Sevastianov ... explained that they could not go against Moscow ..." (b) "He was impressed when the Soviets sent Sports Vice Minister Viacheslav Gavrilin (to discuss the problematic Korchnoi-Kasparov match).
  • The fact that the decision to unseat Euwe as FIDE president was taken by the Soviet government [7]

I'm prepared to let the bit about the budet go, as it's hard to get details of FIDE's rules on membership fees for the 1970s. Philcha (talk) 08:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't doubt that they used chess for political ends. But to say they the USSR "thought it had the right to call the shots..." goes a bit far for my liking. It smacks of mindreading. p.s. the Sosonko article, while it is excellent, should be used with a little caution (i.e. attribute statements to Sosonko, rather than calling them fact), because as a defector he obviously has a low opinion of the USSR. Peter Ballard (talk) 09:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Peter is exactly right. We can describe what the Soviets did in international chess, and that includes politics. To ascribe a particular state of mind (what the USSR thought) needs a lot better reference than that. We must use more neutral language. I really don't see any evidence that the USSR thought that it had some moral right to call the shots. It acted pretty much the way we expect anyone to act in political matters—selfishly, to protect its own interests. You don't need communism to do that. Edmundson acted the same way to promote Fischer. Viewed more sympathetically to the Soviets, 90% of the world's best players were Soviet. Why shouldn't they have a greater say? Quale (talk) 15:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Y Done - move completed. Neıl ☎ 12:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Discuss here the requested move from Fédération Internationale des Échecs to FIDE.

  • Neutral - slightly prefer the old name (see reasons above) but won't oppose rename. Peter Ballard (talk) 02:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support move to "FIDE". Bubba73 (talk), 02:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - FIDE appears to be a good compromise EJF (talk) 14:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Strongly oppose - googling for "fide" turned up a few other hits, including Federation of the European Dental Industry. Dentistry is a legitimate subject for Wikipedia, and for all we know some interested person is thinking of an article about the Federation of the European Dental Industry. I've seen other cases where parochial titles cause trouble - see for example Suture, which I'll sort out someday. Philcha (talk) 14:13, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
That can be handled by using "other uses". There are many abbreviations that have several uses. Bubba73 (talk), 15:30, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
I have some sympathy to calling it "World Chess Federation", but I think FIDE is OK because of uses such as NASA instead of "National Aeronautics and Space Administration" (which is even in English without any accented characters). Bubba73 (talk), 19:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support: it clearly wins the google test and it is clearly the most likely term to be entered in the search box. BTW, one properly googles it as [8]; same goes for the other terms. Voorlandt (talk) 19:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
There's no such thing as "properly googles" - the whole point of search engines is that they help you to find things whose "proper" names you aren't sure of or can't spell. And your example is biassed because the search string includes "chess". Joe / Jane Public will try "fide" first because searchies are case-insensitive, and may then try "fide chess" there are too many hits that are irrelevant to him / her. Philcha (talk) 08:19, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't understand—there certainly are proper google queries. Voorlandt isn't talking about how a random person might try to google FIDE, since that is completely irrelevant to what we're discussing here. The point is to try to determine what name is most commonly used for this organization in English. The query he gives is satisfactory for this purpose, and suggests that FIDE is by far the most popular way to refer to Fédération Internationale des Échecs. This is in accord with my experience, and I suspect yours as well. BTW, when I google "fide" alone (an English language search), the very first hit is http://www.fide.com. The primary reason to include "chess" in the search is to reduce the number of false hits on "bona fide" because this is a rough ghit count exercise and we want a more accurate number. If we had an article on the Federation of the European Dental Industry, then it probably should be titled Federation of the European Dental Industry, since it's my guess that that is the name most commonly used for it in English. Quale (talk) 08:39, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.