Talk:Fiador knot

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Contents 1 Fiodor or Fiador?? 2 Photo 3 Function 4 Turk's head 5 "the method" 6 Fiador, not knot 7 Emergency bridle 8 Chicken or Egg 9 Clear photo

[edit] Fiodor or Fiador??

ABOK refers to this knot the Fiador rather than Fiodor... Google searches for "fiador knot" turn up many more relevant matches. Although knot names are pretty chaotic in general, I'm thinking that this article would be better named Fiador knot, with a redirect from Fiodor knot (and Theodore knot, by which it is also known.) --Dfred 02:12, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Move was completed. --Dfred 20:23, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

The photograph in the article does not contain a fiador knot. There are some examples of fiador knots here, here, and here. --AeronM (talk) 16:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Yep, you're right. I'm not a horse person but given the info in History section, the might the image be showing a traditional fiador itself, rather than the knot? Do you know if this aspect is correct? If so, the image may warrant inclusion next to the history section with a corrected caption... I'll add the fiador to my list next time I'm taking knot pictures. I did attempt to tie it when I was doing some cleanup on the article last year and it was a bit tricky...  :) --Dfred (talk) 20:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

I succeeded tying it using the "bend" method rather than complex "weaving it in space" methods found depicted elsewhere. The question remains whether that original image is useful in this article. I'll leave that to folks with more knowledge of horse tack, but I've removed the image from the article pending further discussion/better caption/etc... --Dfred (talk) 01:01, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Dfred, that is much better! We do have a similar image to the old photo in horse tack (hackamore) where it is better suited. I have tied many a fiador knot in my day. They are not easy. --AeronM (talk) 02:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

A good photo in the article would be helpful. The only use of the know I know is from horse tack, so as for other uses? But yes, the horse photo was incorrect, and properly deleted, that image was just a bosal with a mecate and no fiador. Montanabw^(talk) 04:10, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Function

The article refers to the function of the fiador and fiador knot, but does not say what that function is. As I understand it, both function to keep the bosal in a more or less vertical orientation regardless of the horse, and this serves to encourage the horse to keep its nose down. When the horse sticks its nose out, the bosal hangs from the nose. When the horse lowers its nose, the bosal hangs from the crown piece, which presumably is more comfortable for the horse. --Una Smith (talk) 05:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I am wondering if fiador and fiador knot have two meanings. Fiador knot, as I know it, refers only to the knot pictured, and is used primarily in tying rope halters. It is used under the chin in rope halters as it is nice-looking and also keeps the halter from pulling out of shape. I am not sure about the bosal aspect of the equation. --AeronM (talk) 14:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

See this. --Una Smith (talk) 20:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I clicked link but not sure what I am looking for.... the photos of the argentine halters? --AeronM (talk) 21:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The fiador is the string or strap or whatever that limits movement of the bosal. If the bosal is the old Spanish style (heavy noseband), then the fiador runs down the horse's face; if the bosal is the California hackamore style (heavy chin knot), then the fiador runs below the jaw. The Argentine halters have fiadors on the face; this has a fiador below the jaw. --Una Smith (talk) 21:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

the nomenclature is interesting, as the fiador does not seem to contain a fiador knot....--AeronM (talk) 22:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. --Una Smith (talk) 22:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, some bosals have a big fat knot at the bottom. Sometimes the knot is a fiador knot, sometimes not. (bad pun, bad!) A fiador is not a knot (argh), but currently Fiador knot includes some text that describes a fiador. --Una Smith (talk) 22:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Ahh. I had always heard that referred to as a heel knot. So the question remains, are these two different articles (fiador and fiador knot)? I notice fiador wikilink redirects to fiador knot currently. --AeronM (talk) 22:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

At the moment fiador is a redlink, meaning it does not exist, not even as a redirect. Bosal links to Fiador knot with the display text "fiador", like this: fiador. Earlier today, I edited Bosal so it is a little better now. Perhaps Fiador should be a disambig page. --Una Smith (talk) 02:13, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Just as a general comment, knots occasionally have names that are not strictly accurate or entirely justified -- but nonetheless it is their commonly recognized name. The origin, function, and history of knots often relate to their name by mere association, or even the inference of association, rather than some sort of rational taxonomic procedure. The vagaries of their naming is a regular issue when discussing knots. Take a look at the Stevedore knot article for an example of this and WP:KNOTS for some informal guidelines on how best to deal with this in knotting articles. It would not surprise me in the least if the terms fiador and fiador knot don't represent the exact same component within a halter. If that's the case, then perhaps two articles (or a dab page) with suitable explanations referencing each other regarding the contradictory terminology is the best way to go. --Dfred (talk) 02:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I created Fiador as a disambiguation page, and edited Bosal too; edits are needed also on Fiador knot. --Una Smith (talk) 03:11, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

The big knot on the bottom of a bosal is the bosal or heel knot, the fiador is only the throatlatch, and I presume gets its name from the unique knot used where the cheeks come together under the jaw-- the fiador knot. When a fiador is added to a hackamore, it is tied above the heel knot along with the mecate. Montanabw^(talk) 04:12, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Turk's head

The fiador knot looks a lot like a "turk's head" knot; what is the difference? --Una Smith (talk) 04:15, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

A turk's head has a woven/braided ring-like structure (a torus) and can be used to surround other objects or to create flat ring-like mats. The strand(s) of a turk's head enter and exit the knot from its edges. In knots like the fiador knot, the strands enter from the "center" on one side, are interlaced/knotted together in some way, and then exit from the other side of the knot's center. The fiador knot is based on a type of knot often categorized as a multistrand stopper or terminal knot. It is actually the same as what might be termed a four-stranded Sailor's Diamond Knot (ABOK #693), but with six of the ends (all four on one side, two on the other) looping back into the knot, thus allowing the fiador knot to be made with a single strand. --Dfred (talk) 16:40, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "the method"

Does "the method" refer to the use of a fiador, the use of the fiador knot, or the tying of the fiador knot? --Una Smith (talk) 05:23, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Ashley is actually paraphrasing another source, but it appears he's talking about the use of the fiador knot as a component in horse tack rather than a particular method of tying or use of the fiador itself. Below is the entire passage.

1110. The THEODORE KNOT is a single-strand adaptation of the SAILOR'S DIAMOND KNOT (#693) which is tied with four strands. Cowboys have employed the knot as a hackamore or emergency bridle. According to Philip Ashton Rollins, the method originated in the South American pampas and worked its way, via Mexico, to the Southwestern cow country, arriving there soon after the conclusion of the Spanish-American War. When Theodore Roosevelt, "the hero of San Juan Hill," visited the Southwest, shortly after the war, it was a foregone conclusion that the Spanish name "Fiador" would be corrupted to "Theodore" in his honor. [...two paragraphs of tying instructions follow...]

– Clifford W. Ashley, ABOK, p. 201]

It should be noted in a work like ABOK, the level of expertise on any given application may be limited to summarizing other available sources. Ashley himself had a lot of firsthand nautical experience in East coast whaling and fishing but may have been more at the mercy of his research sources for more far-flung knot applications... In this particular case it appears the source, Philip Ashton Rollins, was a gentleman scholar and historian of the American West. --Dfred (talk) 17:34, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

As I read it, the entire passage says that in a pinch the knot itself can be used as a bridle. As in, one loop behind the ears, one loop (or two) over the muzzle, core of the knot under the chin, and free ends as reins. --Una Smith (talk) 19:00, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

This use might or might not be materially different from the tied rope halter in use today. Interesting, but would need hard work to source. --Una Smith (talk) 20:05, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fiador, not knot

I reworked the history section (which is is only marginally about history) but doing so showed me that the whole article needs reorganizing. This ordinary halter has a fiador (I know no other name for it):

This article now describes both the fiador knot and the fiador. It seems useful to describe the fiador as a part of a halter and of a bridle. Now there are descriptions of the fiador in this article, in Bosal, and in Bridle. Should the fiador have a separate article? --Una Smith (talk) 05:59, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I created Fiador (tack) and move text about the fiador from this article to there. --Una Smith (talk) 19:49, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

That leather halter has no "fiador" -- The fiador is used on hackamores to create the throatlatch, and the knot is used on some rope halters. The connecting strap from the thoatlatch to the noseband on that halter is not called a fiador, unless you want to point us all to a source that so labels it. The fiador on rope halters and hackamores is linked to the fact that they are made of rope and tied with the knot, as to which came first, I defer to linguists, but to call the connecting strap on a leather halter a "fiador" is Original research as far as I can tell. That said, I support the split from this article. Montanabw^(talk) 21:35, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary. Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a dictionary#The differences between encyclopedia and dictionary articles. --Una Smith (talk) 16:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

What does that have to do with WP:NOR?? The fiador is not used on bridles, it is used on bosal hackamores and the knot is used to tie some designs of rope halter. If you have other examples, please source them. I have asked you this repeatedly. Montanabw^(talk) 00:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no original research here. Fiadors are used on bridles; they are used on hackamores and hackamores are bridles. --Una Smith (talk) 01:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

No Una, we have been over this before. Hackamores are not bridles. Bridles have bits, Hackamores may or may not be described as "bitless bridles" if you insist, but the definition of a bridle is, as I quoted the OED on some other talk page, as well as other sources, inherently a form of headgear with a bit. Your use of terminology will confuse people because fiadors, at least in the USA, Canada, Western Europe and Australia, are not as a general rule put on bitted bridles. They go specifically on the bosal-style hackamore, which is most assuredly not a "bridle." I must insist that you source your edits because I do not believe you understand this terminology issue. Montanabw^(talk) 03:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Discussion of fiadors (not fiador knots) and bridles does not belong here. --Una Smith (talk) 06:59, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Emergency bridle

I am wondering if the use as an emergency bridle is really different from the use as a rope halter. --Una Smith (talk) 16:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I would wonder that too, absent some drawings or photos in the source. Maybe if it's a slipknot "war bridle," perhaps. Montanabw^(talk) 00:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, my point is if the "emergency bridle" in question is a variant of fiador knot, then it may be no different than a simple bitless bridle of the rope halter persuasion. --Una Smith (talk) 01:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

When I think of an "emergency halter," I think of a length of rope where you tie a small loop or (if a lariat, use the hondo) at one end that can be looped around the horse's head and muzzle, used something like a "come along" or "war bridle" (though less severe). An "emergency bridle" could be the same thing, only made to have two reins. A fiador knot is pretty complex to tie in a hurry, though so maybe they are talking about a rope halter used as an "emergency" bridle. Be nice if there were images or text explaining, but this isn't my source. Point is, even if you are using a halter as an "emergency bridle," it's still a halter, not a bridle (unless you want to call all halters "bridles" which I don't think is your intent?). Heck, I know kids who tie a piece of baling twine through the mouth and around the jaw of a horse and ride them that way (nominating themselves for a Darwin award in the process, IMHO, but I digress), that is probably also an "emergency bridle," but I sure would still say that it is basically a piece of baling twine! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 04:48, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Montanabw, please do not edit the quotation provided by Dfred. --Una Smith (talk) 17:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I did, or if I did it wasn't a deliberate change of something other people put on a talk page. I don't even know what you are talking about. Montanabw^(talk) 18:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I have fixed it. --Una Smith (talk) 03:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chicken or Egg

This may belong on Wiktionary, but seems relevant here, in that we are trying to understand what is and is not a fiador. I have been poking around, trying to figure out what fiador really means, and I am seeing that the main Spanish definition is as a guarantor of a loan, but that secondary definitions such as the function as a 'catch' seem to have to do with the main verb 'fiar' which can mean to guarantee, from Latin 'fidus'. [1] [2]

So, to me, by what I see as its word roots, a fiador in the earliest context is a safety catch. This makes sense in its more widespread use as I have always known it, which is as the device used to hold a bosal in its proper orientation and to allow the hackamore to be used as a halter. The fiador knot, it seems to me, would be named after the fiador itself.

As far as other uses, sure, technically I suppose the bottom connector on a standard halter could be termed a fiador in its broadest sense, although I've never seen it used that way, and I don't see any reason to create a new definition. Maybe the South American reference can be on Spanish language Wikipedia A fiador as used by the old-time Californios is a rope (which was usually a horsehair rope) tied with a bottle knot above the heel knot of a (usually) heavy bosal, meeting at the throatlatch with a fiador knot (newer versions sometimes use the Matthew Walker's knot), and joins after passing over the poll in a sheet bend on the left side. I have never seen another definition that isn't at least close to this. The best information is probably in the book These Were the Vaqueros by Arnold Rojas.--Getwood (talk) 01:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I concur that using fiador to describe a halter throatlatch or to describe the strap that connects a throatlatch to a noseband on halters, etc., constitutes Original research. Absent a citation, it should be removed from the article. I believe that we do need wikipedia to reflect actual modern English usage in this respect, not what they say in countries that speak other languages? Montanabw^(talk) 19:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Its name is fiador all over South America. As far as I can tell from ethnographic dictionaries, the use of fiador in that sense originated in Argentina. In old Spanish, fiador has many meanings, all generalizable to "keeper". I already gave a reliable source on Talk:Fiador knot. --Una Smith (talk) 06:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no hard and fast rule for "off topic" discussions, particularly when merging is a question. That said, if we have separate articles for bits, bit rings, bit shanks and bit mouthpieces, (and we do), I see no reason not to have a separate article on the fiador, though I might suggest we draw the line for "browband." But, as for "fiador all over South America," fine. Source it. I believe you yourself once said you were of the "put up or shut up" school. Please do so. Montanabw^(talk) 23:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clear photo

this shows a hackamore bridle with a fiador. The fiador has a fiador knot under the throat and a "bottle sling" (?) knot slipped over the heel knot, yes? --Una Smith (talk) 03:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The black cord is too dark for me to make out details of the knots and if they are correctly tied (the placement looks a little off) but yes, that is a hackamore with a fiador, though without an added mecate, it really cannot show fully correct placement. Here's a drawing of one with a mecate. Hard to find good images, finding free ones is really a PITA. (sigh) Here is one with white cord, but it's about as tough to work out details. Montanabw^(talk) 05:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)