Talk:Fernando Collor de Mello/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents 1 Vandalism 2 Divorced? 3 CSA 4 Elected 5 NPOV 6 IPA pronunciation 7 Freezing of savings accounts 8 Not american?? 9 What about his Impeachment ? 10 My revision of August 17 10.1 Section title 10.2 Not my opinion! 10.3 Last reply 10.4 I agree 11 Third opinion 11.1 Suggestion 12 Additional links 12.1 Good now 12.2 Us? 12.3 Links again 12.4 ? 12.5 Status Quo 12.6 Good faith 12.7 Priv. and tech revolution 12.8 Inflation 12.9 Links 12.10 Proof 12.11 Is it better? check the words inflation and hyper 12.12 Acesita 12.13 Political rights restoration 13 This is impressive. 14 Biography Issues 14.1 Very grave 14.2 Pstu opinion 14.3 Lula´s interview 15 Isto é 16 Political rights xx civil rights

Vandalism

Removed little vandalism in his name (Bichona, Portuguese for 'Big Faggot/queer'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.11.84.23 (talk • contribs) 16:38, 29 April 2005 (UTC)

Divorced?

Can anyone show Collor is divorced? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.7.87.89 (talk • contribs) 23:44, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

CSA

Collor was the president of Brazilian football club CSA in 1976. This info should be mentioned in the article. Source of the info: Guia dos Curiosos. Regards, Carioca 23:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Elected

[1]

• Wow.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.78.247.150 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

This article suffers from NPOV shortcomings, particularly when the economy is involved. He was allegedly battling inflation? Allegedly? What the heck does that mean? Who are these experts who dispute his plan? None have names. A little attribution and more care would go a long way.--Thatnewguy 16:52, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation

Changed to a generic Brazilian Portuguese. Why the hell it had an European one is beyond me. Macgreco 22:27, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Freezing of savings accounts

It is my understanding that the ceiling on the freeze on savings accounts was 50,000 cruzados novos, not 1,500 cruzeiros, as stated here.

o bloqueio, por dezoito meses, dos depósitos em contas correntes e cadernetas de poupança que ultrapassassem os 50 000 cruzados novos;

Did you mention his signing of the Mercosul treaty in 1991, by the way?

Why are these quibbles the subject of an NPOV dispute, by the way? None of them really seem to relate to POV at all, just factual and sourcing issues.

A source: Brasil Escola —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 201.52.17.210 (talk • contribs) 18:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It is very hard to keep NPOV about the man because he used to take extreme measures. Though I haven't got the time to do the research and write things neatly here (now I am on an MBA) I will just mention some things he did that are still controversial:

• Freezing of savings accounts
• Total and sudden removal of laws that prevented competition in some sectors of industry (TI, automobiles)
• Raising all pensions paid to the poor to the same level as the minimum wage (thus aggravating the deficit of the Brazilian pension system)
• Creation of several taxas and fees (the last Brazilian government who did not create any was, AFAIK, Juscelino Kubitscheck)
• Signing of the Mercosur treaty with Argentina (putting an end to decades of mutual misunderstandings)

He was also reported to have said that "Brazilian automobiles are carts", "Brazilians are just too lazy" (a sentence later repeated by Fernando Henrique Cardosos), "the laws that protected our computer industry did not protect us from it" (meaning that the computers were crap), that "Lula was a bearded frog" or that he was "stupid as a caveman".

Another source of problems were some of his ministers. His Labour minister, Rogério Magri, used a governemnt car to take his dog to the vet. Confronted with the press he said: "A dog is a person like anyone else". He was also famous for using a similar word instead of another. Supositórios (suppositories) instead of suposições (suppositions), for instance and for coining a new word in language, imexível ("unmeddleable").

His Economy minister Zélia Cardoso had a love affair with his Justice Minister, Bernardo Cabral (there is footage of them dancing Besame Mucho in a dancing bar) and in his last days his ministers plotted to overthrow him!

He was no nice guy and made a lot of enemies. No wonder some people bash him. But I, personally, think his impeachment was unjust. He may have been flawed, but his successors (Cardoso and Silva) have done much worse than anything he supposedly did. jggouvea 02:40, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Not american??

Why putting his nationality as NOT-AMERICAN?? Don't you think that this sound as Americanism?

Of course Collor is brazilian! TheUnpluggedGuy 02:08, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

What about his Impeachment ?

FCM was Impeached! Why isn't this important fact mentioned in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fornari (talk • contribs) 15:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

My revision of August 17

Okay, I've edited the article, added and removed content, etc. here's the bulk of my changes: --Dali-Llama 20:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• Removed: " He won in the state of Sao Paulo against many prominent political figures."

That's speculative and would need a source. Who are the figures? --Dali-Llama 20:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That´s very easy to cite. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 21:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Good. Then do so. I know he beat a bunch of people, but you're making a specific assertion about a specific state. --Dali-Llama 21:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• Removed: "Inherited from Plano Collor, as result of Real Plan (Fernando Henrique Cardoso, Collor´s successor), inflation declined to monthly rates of between 1 and 3 percent in 1995, for an annual rate of 25.9 percent. In 1996: 16.5 percent; 1997: 7.2 percent. By 2006: 3,18% annualy."

This is akin to saying that the the plano real and plano collor are related. They're absolutely not. The two had fundamental different approaches to targeting inflation and stabilization. You're mentioning rates that are 3 to 5 years after Collor left office. --Dali-Llama 20:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

They are closey related, and the citation is there. FHC followed his macroeconomic agenda, since he maintained privatization, free trade, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 21:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Have you actually read the citation? It doesn't even mention the word Collor or anything relating to economic policy--only economic indicators. It says what the latest inflation figures are--it makes no scholarly assertion that the inflation rates of the plano real have to do with the Plano Collor. One can't say that's a citation for the relationship between the Plano Collor and the Plano Real --Dali-Llama 21:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I did. There are many citations, not only one that could explain the whole content. The link between the three administrations is provided by all citations (check the other one, pls). Iam sorry, but the economic indicators show all the years, from FCM to Lula da Silva. The other link is a citation from IMF director talking abt te link of these macroeconomic agenda, followed by them. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 21:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Which citations? You can't say "all citations" and expect us to reach the same conclusion you have. The Agência Brasil citation only references 2006 and 2007. The BBC citation which you mention with the IMF director quote specifically mentions FHC, not Fernando Collor. You can't say there are "trends" or "links" without giving verifiable and reliable sources to back that up. --Dali-Llama 21:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• Removed: "The "confiscated" money had negative real interest rates while in the government's hands and this negative difference was indirectly used to significantly lower the Brazilian sovereign debt ^{[cite this quote]}. Before Collor took power, in march of 1990, brazilian rates were above 200% each month."

That's a very specific piece of information and needs a source. The "confiscation" is still very controversial. --Dali-Llama 20:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, you should not delete. If you don´t agree, you are the one to prove the contrary, since all these statements are linked, and citations provided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 21:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, no. All it has is a {{Fact}} tag--that means it doesn't have a citation. And the burden of proof is on who adds the to the article, according to WP:V. So, if you'd like to keep that paragraph, you need to find sources for it, not me.

I didn´t write this. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 21:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Then you're okay if I remove it? --Dali-Llama 21:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Why would you do that? WE should not worry abt what "mine" or "yours" --we should worry abt the conten, facts, reality, history --ethics. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 21:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I just said above why I want to do that. It's a specific piece of information which I disagree with having in the article without a source. Again, will you revert me if I remove it? --Dali-Llama 21:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

As you´ve said: it is controversial. Maybe should be left there. I could find citations for that. What do you suggest, why do you say this has no proof? Ludovicapipa ^yes? 21:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia's very clear on this (see WP:V): positive affirmations required positive proof. I'll remove it. Once you find citations, I'll restore it. What about my other comments? --Dali-Llama 21:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I separated the following section into free trade reforms and corruption/downfall

===Free Trade===

• Removed: " Among the largest government-owned privatized are Embraer (the world's third biggest aircraft industry), Vale do Rio Doce (the world's second largest mining company, and the largest logistics operator in Brazil), Telebrás which benefit from this and became highly efficient powerful multinational companies"

This is mentioned in the previous paragraph, and "highly efficient powerful" is incredibly POV and open to debate. --Dali-Llama 20:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, highly efficient: such as Embraer, which was palyed a small role in the world scenario and now is the world´s third aircraft company. The same happens with all the others. There are citattions to academic studies, so it´s not POV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 21:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Did you bother to check the link? It's broken. So there's no source. I'm not disputing the content of the paragraph: I'm disputing the need of the paragraph when the same point is made in the paragraph directly above it. --Dali-Llama 21:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

If it´s broken, I will fix it later. Iam sorry, didn´t notice. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 21:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That's okay--I'm not saying the link is the problem. I'm saying the paragraph above also says the same thing. --Dali-Llama 21:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

===Corruption=== I revised and expanded this section, with proper sources. I added the Veja image to demonstrate public opinion at the time. --Dali-Llama 20:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ludovica, I'm reverting to my edits one final time. Let people give an opinion on the new version of the article. This article is NOT under a GA review like Brazil, so people can compare the new version with an old version, instead of comparing an old version with a "non-existent" version. I'm pinging a few different editors involved in Brazil to see what they think. I understand that you've contributed a lot to this article, and I'm not trying to undo it: I'm just trying to expand it and have it conform to NPOV. --Dali-Llama 20:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Section title

I changed "Collor´s pioneirism: Privatization and free trade" to "Privatization and free trade". Saying something is pioneering or not is open to debate and interpretation. Saying the section is about privatization and free trade says the same thing without the bias of saying he was a pioneer. Why do you think it should stay there? --Dali-Llama 21:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That´s obvious: he was a pioneer. My good God! What a pioneer!! What a courage, to begin a major shift in a country´s history! That´s why he was impeached! It´s because of him that we todat have cell phones, a decent car industry, Internet, Embraer, Acesita, Cabe tv, imported goods, computer, foreing investments! Pionerism is just a name for his accomplishments. You were adviced to delete the word cirruption. I agree, he was not charged, accusations were all lifted, released. Pioneirsm is a proper word; corruption is wrong.

I won´t be online this weekend. Be back on monday. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 20:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that's your opinion. The compromise I'm suggesting is to remove that which is open to interpretation. It's all a matter of degrees: he did privatize companies and open up to free trade. Whether he was a pioneer or not, is open to interpretation. --Dali-Llama 20:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

24 hrs? Hehehhehehe

Is there a deadline for me answer? No there is not. I will add teh results of all charges against him, and explain they were all lifted. As for teh "confiscated" paragraph I will also look for citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 20:19, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

"...for the first time in the country´s history[PIONEIRISM], technological and industrial modernization, end of the hyper-inflation and public debt reduction [4]." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 20:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

No, there's no deadline for replying, and I'm not implying there is one: but when you respond to one issue and do not respond to others, it leads me to think you can't answer the issues I brought up with them (that's why I gave 24hrs between your response and my edits). Please, do add the information you'd like: I myself wasn't able to find a good source for the STF ruling. Given, however, that Wikipedia has a policy of positive affirmations requiring positive proof, I'll remove contested sections until you're able to provide citations meeting WP:RS which directly address the issue. --Dali-Llama 20:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

This is unbelievable. You keep reverting things without talking about the issues on the talk page. Look a few paragraphs up: there are a bunch of points where I'm the last person to make a comment. When are you going to start creating consensus and not just click the revert button? --Dali-Llama 20:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Listen, all my paragraphs meet the criteria of citations. Even a simple and obvious owrd such as pioneirsim is cited from a magazine, a renowned one (look above [PIONEIRISM)]. He was a pioneer just like Isaac Newton, Santos Dummont --just like Lula was the first socialist-communist president. You can say Lula is a pioneer. I will revert, yes, because all what I wrote has citations. Yo were the first to revert/delete and insert an inapropriated image, as you yourself recognized. The word pioneer is correct and justified, with citations. Now, if you dint´agree you must find a citatiosn which denies that. Good luck! Ludovicapipa ^yes? 20:39, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

And on that note, did you stop to read the actual source you're quoting for "pioneirism"? It makes no such assertion about Collor: it only mentions the companies which were privatized and how they outperformed their state-owned peers. That's still your opinion that Collor was pioneering in technology and those other things. Read the WP:OR policy: you're not supposed to analyze a source's conclusion or try to synthesize it to advance your position. If you can find a source that meets WP:RS which says that Collor was a pioneer, then great. Otherwise, we go back to WP:V and remove that title. --Dali-Llama 20:43, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

And why haven't you replied to my other points on this page? --Dali-Llama 21:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Not my opinion!

Hello,

Again, the word pioneirism is a single word aimed to offer a title for the paragraph, its context. As you can read, Revista Isto é Dinheiro, talks abt "the first time in the country´s history". This is pioneirism. Pioneer is the word give to those who make something for the first time.

Maybe, if you don´t agree, pls find a citation to deny it! As you´ve said: "o ônus da prova cabe ao acusador". I provided the citation. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 21:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Read WP:NPOV. In it it states:

Karada offered the following advice in the context of the Saddam Hussein article:

You won't even need to say he was evil. That is why the article on Hitler does not start with "Hitler was a bad man"—we don't need to, his deeds convict him a thousand times over. We just list the facts of the Holocaust dispassionately, and the voices of the dead cry out afresh in a way that makes name-calling both pointless and unnecessary. Please do the same: list Saddam's crimes, and cite your sources.

Remember that readers will probably not take kindly to moralising. If you do not allow the facts to speak for themselves you may alienate readers and turn them against your position.

THAT'S my point. It's not that I'm saying he wasn't a pioneer: I'm saying you don't need to create a biased statement on the section title to prove your point when you already have arguments for it in the article itself. --Dali-Llama 21:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

And I'll ask again, why haven't you replied to my other points on this page? --Dali-Llama 21:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Last reply

I don´t know what other points you´d like me to answer. I dont´know how old are you...

Evil is an adjective. Pioneirism is a noun.

This conversation is rather pointless --you cant´s say someone is an evil --this is offensive and a personal attack. You can say someone is a pioneer, like Dummont, Newton. I have to go. Unless you can prove he was not a pioneer, you will have to leave it there.Ludovicapipa ^yes? 21:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

And again

Pls, you deleted teh last paragraph. You can´t do that if the content is fully justified and presents citations. Iam not doing that with yr work. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 21:28, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I intend to write a whole paragraph abt his return to the polictical scenario. If you continue to do that you are not with good faith at all. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 21:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Per your points: You didn't understand my point: I didn't say Collor was evil. And it's not about grammar: noun or adjective. You're making a claim about Collor: that he was a pioneer. What I'm saying is that even if he was a pioneer, one shouldn't make POV claims on an article section title: let the section speak for itself. --Dali-Llama 21:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

"I don't know how old are you..." I've tried really hard not to make this personal. I've been in Wikipedia for over 3 years, I've mediated a bunch of conflicts and I've managed to edit quite a few emotionally charged articles. I didn't get to where I am today, with no blocks without knowing how to do this by-the-book. We both have legitimate points and throughout this discussion, I haven't questioned your motives: I've only addressed the issues clearly citing what specific policies I believe they go against. Content being "fully justified and presenting citations" is exactly what I'm disputing. You don't need to take things personally. --Dali-Llama 21:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The last paragraph... Let's take a look at it:

Fernando Collor resigned his term in office just before brazilian senate voted for his impeachment. Newspapers cried it was a victory for democracy. Brazil´s very first democraticly elected president fled out of office just before he was impeached by congress because of excessive corruption in his government in 1992. It was the first time the congress dismissed the president without any military interference. For Brazilians, most from the left-wing, Fernando Collor was and still is a shame for Brazilians who trusted him to create a never seen before democratic republic. For many others brazilians, he was even a victim and a hero. Brazilian modernization, privatization and free trade were all beginned by Fernando Collor in 1990 decade. Buying imported goods became a normal thing for Brazilians during Collor's presidency. His political economy of privatization and free trade was then followed by the next two governments until our days: Fernando Henrique Cardoso and Lula da Silva [8]."

1) "Fernando Collor resigned his term in office just before brazilian senate voted for his impeachment." That's already in the impeachment section below. --Dali-Llama 21:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll remove it, as you don't seem to have a problem with it. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

2)"Newspapers cried it was a victory for democracy. Brazil´s very first democraticly elected president fled out of office just before he was impeached by congress because of excessive corruption in his government in 1992. It was the first time the congress dismissed the president without any military interference." Missing a source and it's complete WP:OR.--Dali-Llama 21:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn´t write this but will try to find citations. On the next week. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so I'll remove it until citations are provided. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

3)"For Brazilians, most from the left-wing, Fernando Collor was and still is a shame for Brazilians who trusted him to create a never seen before democratic republic. For many others brazilians, he was even a victim and a hero. Brazilian modernization, privatization and free trade were all beginned by Fernando Collor in 1990 decade. Buying imported goods became a normal thing for Brazilians during Collor's presidency." How is this not, again, original research? No source for any of this.--Dali-Llama 21:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Also very easy to provide citations. Is that what you want? Ludovicapipa ^yes? 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree citations are easy. So I'll remove it until they're provided. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

4)"His political economy of privatization and free trade was then followed by the next two governments until our days: Fernando Henrique Cardoso and Lula da Silva" I actually agree with this, but it's already in the paragraph above: "This neoliberal plan was then followed by his successors Fernando Henrique Cardoso and Lula da Silva [6] who maintained free trade, privatization program in large scale, and technological revolution." No need to repeat the same point. --Dali-Llama 21:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Where is it repeated? Ludovicapipa ^yes? 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You just removed it. =) --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

So now, that entire paragraph is original research devoid of any citations. I'll remove it until it can be re-written with proper citations. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Open points which have comments you haven't replied to:

• Removed: " Among the largest government-owned privatized are Embraer (the world's third biggest aircraft industry), Vale do Rio Doce (the world's second largest mining company, and the largest logistics operator in Brazil), Telebrás which benefit from this and became highly efficient powerful multinational companies"

You can check the citation: from "Scielo" link. It´s there! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

It's the issue of a repeated statement. That's solved now. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• Removed: "The "confiscated" money had negative real interest rates while in the government's hands and this negative difference was indirectly used to significantly lower the Brazilian sovereign debt [cite this quote]. Before Collor took power, in march of 1990, brazilian rates were above 200% each month."

I will provide citations, although I was not the author of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, so again, I'll remove it until the citation is provided. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

• Removed: "Inherited from Plano Collor, as result of Real Plan (Fernando Henrique Cardoso, Collor´s successor), inflation declined to monthly rates of between 1 and 3 percent in 1995, for an annual rate of 25.9 percent. In 1996: 16.5 percent; 1997: 7.2 percent. By 2006: 3,18% annualy."

What´s the problem with this? Economic indiccators, fully cited. Facts and numbers of reality. It also shows that the end of inflation, free trade, privatization all begun with him --and remained tan agenda for the following administrations.Ludovicapipa ^yes? 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disputing the facts and figures: The figures are correct. I disputing that the paragraph makes it seem that these inflation rates have a direct correlation with the Plano Collor. By saying "Inherited from Plano Collor, as result of Real Plan", that is an assertion you're making and that you do not have a reliable source for (therefore it's original research). To be honest, all the inflation rates you mention--from 1994 onwards--are all during and after the Plano Real. How Plano Collor relates is NOT obvious from the source you've provided. Economically, the Plano Collor and Plano Real did completely diferent things, both with their advantages and disadvantages. It is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed (see here). Again, if you can find a source which credits these inflation rates to Plano Collor, then I'll agree to keep it, but until then, this is WP:OR and must go. --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I welcome a paragraph about his return to elected office, as long it holds to the standards we have (OR, NPOV, RS and V), I'd be happy to contribute. BUT, as mentioned time and time again, the burden of proof is on someone ADDING or RESTORING facts and conclusions, not the other way around. So, as long what you ADD, by writing or reverting my deletions, fits those criteria, I won't interefere. --Dali-Llama 21:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn´t understand this. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 22:05, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

In a nutshell: Write the paragraphs you'd like, as long as facts are properly cited (WP:RS) and you're not drawing any conclusions of your own (WP:OR. If I remove your content, it is your job to prove that it is true, not mine to prove it isn't (WP:V). --Dali-Llama 22:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree

Fernando Collor resigned his term in office just before brazilian senate voted for his impeachment. Newspapers cried it was a victory for democracy. Brazil´s very first democraticly elected president fled out of office just before he was impeached by congress because of excessive corruption in his government in 1992. It was the first time the congress dismissed the president without any military interference. For Brazilians, most from the left-wing, Fernando Collor was and still is a shame for Brazilians who trusted him to create a never seen before democratic republic. For many others brazilians, he was even a victim and a hero. Brazilian modernization, privatization and free trade were all beginned by Fernando Collor in 1990 decade. Buying imported goods became a normal thing for Brazilians during Collor's presidency.

I agree to delete this paragraph. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 22:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Third opinion

Hablo español solamente un poco, pero lo leo adecuadamente. If that's sufficient for your needs, I'll be reviewing the edit in dispute and give my opinion in a bit. — Coren ^(talk) 01:00, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem. The only issue with language is that most sources are in Portuguese. --Dali-Llama 01:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

My comprehension of Portuguese is more marginal, but might suffice. I'll be surfacing and recuse myself if it turns out to be inadequate. — Coren ^(talk) 02:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Here's what I feel we need a third opinion on:

• Removal of: "Inherited from Plano Collor, as result of Real Plan (Fernando Henrique Cardoso, Collor´s successor), inflation declined to monthly rates of between 1 and 3 percent in 1995, for an annual rate of 25.9 percent. In 1996: 16.5 percent; 1997: 7.2 percent. By 2006: 3,18% annualy."

I'm not disputing the facts and figures: The figures are correct. I disputing that the paragraph makes it seem that these inflation rates have a direct correlation with the Plano Collor. By saying "Inherited from Plano Collor, as result of Real Plan", that is an assertion the article is making and that we do not have a reliable source for (therefore it's original research). To be honest, all the inflation rates it mentions--from 1994 onwards--are all during and after the Plano Real. How Plano Collor relates is NOT obvious from the source you've provided. Economically, the Plano Collor and Plano Real did completely different things, both with their advantages and disadvantages. It is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed (see here). Again, if someone can find a source which credits these inflation rates to Plano Collor, then I'll agree to keep it, but until then, this is WP:OR and must go. --Dali-Llama 02:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I had already begun checking this. I agree that the statement, as it stands, is original research unless a reliable source can be found establishing correlation between Plano Collor and inflation (and not just a coincidence in time). — Coren ^(talk) 03:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

There are many (hundreds) citations for this. This article is aimed at offering a general overview, not a detailed description of each governmet. All citations talk abt the continuity of the macroeconomic agenda from Collor to Lula. The correlation is obvious and fully cited. Again, one more: [2]

But the most important is that you just said that Collor ended hyper-inflation. Well, ending hyper-inflation is the very frist step to end inflation --all economic indcators I provided are a proving this. That´s obvious. Collor ended hyper-inflation which allowed FHC to end inflation. That´s the continuity.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 08:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The source you just provided does not support your assertions: it is a critique of economic policies started by Collor "iniciadas com a abertura do governo Collor - foram continuadas por Fernando Henrique" and their effect on productivity of the industrial sector. The only mention made of inflation at all is in reference to efforts to stabilize exchange rates: "A estabilização não é um bem supremo, todos os países chegaram a ela de um jeito ou de outro. Essa é uma batalha que já foi vencida pelo mundo, o mundo não tem mais inflação. Transformar isso no objeto de desejo de uma sociedade é uma bobagem. A sociedade quer crescer; estabilizar é um fato prosaico". Please explain to me how that single statement supports the assertion that Collor ended inflation? — Coren ^(talk) 15:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, as I quoted below you agree he ended hyper-inflation. Iam not malicious: the reality is driving, giving us direction towards his accomplishments. All links provided prove that:

1. Ended hyper-inflation (with which you agreed); Yr words: "It is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed";

2. Inflation declined by 1994 (with FHC); all links provided prove FHC follow his macroeconomic agenda. Although you can say a few detalis were different (of course, another world/local scenario), he maintained privatization, free trade, debt reduction (once he found a comfortable secenario with no pressure of hyper-inflation) this agenda begun with Collor; If you don´t agree with that you must prove the contrary, you must offer link that deny that --and not put the blame on me, by saying "Iam driving the text".

3. Once you provide link, citations, quotations, then we can start talking;

4. This link [3] talks abt "revolution", abt "there is no word to express what this woman accomplished in such a short period of time"; and "end of hyperinflation". "Só isso já bastaria para que a ministra Zélia fosse reconhecida como alguém que assentou tijolos importantes na catedral da estabilização".

4(a): This link [4] also cites the "end of hyper-inflation", the free trade, competiotion and provatization;

5. Here, again: the continiyu from Collor to FHC to Lula [5];

6. A link to the privatizatio issue and all its benefits: [6]

7. The continiy again from Collor to FHC, to Lula: "Tais políticas - iniciadas com a abertura do governo Collor - foram continuadas por Fernando Henrique Cardoso e Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, segundo economistas e industriais ouvidos pela Folha." [7]

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 17:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Change section heading of: Collor´s pioneirism: Privatization, free trade and the end of hyper-inflation to Privatization and free trade.

My suggestion removes any POV discussion on whether Collor was a pioneer or not and whether or not he ended hyper-inflation (which is also tenuous, given that he still had double-digit monthly inflation when he left office).--Dali-Llama 02:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

That does not need diving into sources. The heading, as it was, begs the question and is strongly POV. Your suggested rewording returns to neutrality. — Coren ^(talk) 03:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I dont´see POV. The word is aimed at entitle and introduce the context. That´s all and it establishes a very important link to the rest of the artcile, and even emphasizes his accomplishments: the very fact that he started the process of a macroeconomic agenda followed by FHC and Lula da Silva. Maybe his most important role was his courage, inovation, pioneirsm. If you deny this you break all links that point to him. If FHC continued his program it is because he pioneered!! Iam sorry, this "discussion" i srather obvious and it is pointless to explain that. I don´t agree wto remov pionerism. As you yourself acknowlodges below: "He began the process, but it only occurred between 2 and 7 years after he left office."

Again: he pioneered but FHC and Lula followed him!! Even if he had not been accused of corruption, he had a deadline to do eveything, he is not God, ha can´t do all the job alone! Again: this is not a productive discussion.

If you think it´s POV. I think Corruption and downfall is also POV. Should also be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 08:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry, but the use of superlative in article text is inappropriate unless in a quote, and completely inappropriate in a section header. If Collor was a pioneer, the the list of his accomplishments will establish that without needing to beg the question. The goal of an article is not to convince the readers, but to inform them. — Coren ^(talk) 16:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

• Alter: "A feature of Collor's administration was the privatization of a number of government-owned enterprises such as Acesita, Embraer, Telebras, Companhia Vale do Rio Doce." and "Among the biggest government-owned privatized are Embraer (the world´s third biggest aircraft industry), Vale do Rio Doce (the world´s second largest mining company, and the largest logistics operator in Brazil), Telebrás which benefit from this and became highly efficient powerful multinational companies"

I have a big problem here: Telebrás, Embraer, and CVRD were not privatized during Collor's term. He began the process, but it only occurred between 2 and 7 years after he left office. It should be modified to reflected to recognize that the process began during his term, but he did not succeed in doing so until he left office due to widespread opposition to these moves. Only Acesita was privatized during his term[8]. --Dali-Llama 02:24-26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

This one is a bit more difficult. My understanding from the sources and what I could find on the 'net show that, while most of those privatizations were not completed during his term, he is often (generally?) credited with having initiated them. Can you suggest a specific rewording that would satisfy you? — Coren ^(talk) 03:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion:

Collor's administration began the process of privatization of a number of government-owned enterprises such as Acesita, Embraer, Telebrás and Companhia Vale do Rio Doce.^[1] With the exception of Acesita, the privatizations were all completed during the term of Fernando Henrique Cardoso. His government also pursued aggressive free trade reforms, reducing both tariffs and red tape on imports. The implementation of this program was made by his finance minister, Zelia Cardoso de Mello.^[2]

I'd also remove the following paragraph altogether:

This neoliberal plan was then followed by his successors Fernando Henrique Cardoso and Lula da Silva ^[3] who maintained free trade, privatization program in large scale, and technological revolution. Among the biggest government-owned privatized are Embraer (the world´s third biggest aircraft industry), Vale do Rio Doce (the world´s second largest mining company, and the largest logistics operator in Brazil), Telebrás which benefit from this and became highly efficient powerful multinational companies ^[4].

Note the source doesn't even mention Collor. If anything, this sort of comment should be in the article on Fernando Henrique and Lula, not Collor, and does not mention "free trade, privatization and technological revolution". In my opinion, this is WP:OR as it stands right now (always changed by new sources). The second part of the paragraph, which lacks a source due to a broken link, is highly speculative, and tries to attribute the company's growth to their privatization and then by proxy to Collor. Again, remembering that the privatization didn't actually happen during Collor's term, it seems like it's bending over backwards to credit it to Collor. It's as if you said in an article about Hilary Koprowski that "the polio vaccine saved millions of lives". That would be an accurate statement. The problem isn't that the sentence is accurate: it's that Koprowki's vaccine, while pioneering, failed, and Salk's and Sabin's were the ones used to this day to immunize people. So, not only does it have a broken source link, but it's a non-sequitur. --Dali-Llama 05:40, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all!! Again, the article is not aimed at offering details of the FCM, FHC nor Lula --only abt FCM. His goals, accomplishments, pioneirism. I provided a new link above. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 08:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both changes as suggested. Ludovicapipa, please carefully read the policy on original research, specifically the specific exclusion "It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source". This is exactly what your synthesis is doing, and is not appropriate. If you can find reliable sources that made that specific analysis (and not simply bits and pieces of it that you then paste together), then we can discuss inclusion. — Coren ^(talk) 16:13, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

1. We all agree Collor started the privatization, free trade process and ended hyperinflation;

I'm sorry, but Dali-Llama has specifically not agreed to the part about "ended hyperinflation", and my own evaluation is spelled out above. Please do not put words in other people's mouths. — Coren ^(talk) 16:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

2. We all agree he didn´t continued because he was impeached;

3. We all agree FHC and Lula continued privatization and FCM macroagenda

Yes, but there is no concensus on the relevance of including that information in an article on Collor specifically (as opposed to Brazil history). — Coren ^(talk) 16:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

4. "Scielo" [9] link talks abt a major shift in all the privatized companies and all he benefits of it, and also all the profit and the fact that they became highly efficient; also talks abt debt reduction; So the text is correct because it links Collor, the beggining of the privatization process and the efficiency of the privatization

5. You said "the link (to IMF director, from BBC) doesn´t mention where and what FHC and Lula did to continue his agenda". I provided a new link, so we can maitain both now, ok? Although BBC link doesn´t detail it does prove the continuity statemt. The details are now provided by the second link. OK? Ludovicapipa ^yes? 08:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[10]

Collor´s privatization (pioneirism) led to the world´s largets privat. process, to efficency (Scielo link), to debt reduction (Scielo), to profit (Scielo link)... Ludovicapipa ^yes? 08:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Last paragraph deleted?

I´d like to maintain the last paragraph: Corruption charges lifted adn Senate election. Vey easy to cite and a simple fact of reality that you delete...

Can you explain why did you do that? Ludovicapipa ^yes? 08:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't delete it: read the edit summary. I relocated it to the section on impeachment and renamed the following section to talk only about his post-presidency activities.--Dali-Llama 18:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Image

You linked an image of Veja, on which is said: "The year we got rid of him". The image was not authorized and deleted.

I see a very grave problems: (1)I see no good faith and a malicous intention with a very negative impact on Collor´s image. From all yr editions I don´t trust yr comments. And again, you deleted the last paragraph as I´ve said above --which also points to no good faith. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 08:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

The image is still in Wikipedia, and meets all the requirements for fair use and is properly sourced. When I addedit, I felt it was important to demonstrate public opinion at the time, but given the current length of the article, I feel it would be undue weight to have it in such a short article. And you keep mentioning good faith. Have you read WP:AGF? As I've mentioned before, I've never questioned the motives for your edits.--Dali-Llama 18:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Picture

You also changed from left to right the positin of the picture...which is...aimed at...??? Ludovicapipa ^yes? 08:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Read WP:MOS. It says pictures should be right generally right-aligned. And certainly not in the middle of two sections.--Dali-Llama 18:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

POV

"Corruption and downfall" are POV. Evne stronger than Pionerism since all charges were lifted.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lulu Margarida (talk • contribs) 08:21, 19 August (UTC)

That is an arguably correct point. Perhaps rephrasing that as well would be a good idea. — Coren ^(talk) 16:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Would "Impeachment" be better? And charges were not lifted--he was found not guilty: I know it might seem like splitting hairs but it's the difference between being accused by the government and having the charges thrown out before it went to trial.--Dali-Llama 18:51, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Note: this content is also present in History of Brazil, and Plano Collor so consensus on this page should percolate there as well--Dali-Llama 02:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

As for the other articles I plan to rewrite and expand them. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 08:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Additional links

[11]

Essa postura de continuidade sem continuísmo sugere que a agenda de reformas insere-se no rol das questões de Estado, e não no mero interesse partidário, ou mesmo na transitoriedade de um determinado governo, independente de sua matriz ideológica. Reformar o Estado brasileiro tem sido tarefa permanente [Estado] e não transitória [governo], para usar uma das distinções clássicas na ciência política entre Estado e governo. Desde 1990 as reformas estruturais foram introduzidas na agenda política brasileira. Até hoje, passados três diferentes governos, o tema tem sido relevante para o dia-a-dia governamental. Mesmo o governo-tampão do presidente Itamar tratou-as prioritariamente, embora numa perspectiva contrária. Por que governos tão distintos como os de Collor, Itamar, Fernando Henrique e Lula deram continuidade à agenda das reformas - embora com mudanças menores de estilo - é uma pergunta corrente na ciência política, em busca de uma explicação convincente. Este paper oferece como uma das respostas - a tese das `razões de Estado'. das respostas - a tese das `razões de Estado'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ludovicapipa (talk • contribs) 11:23:47, August 19, 2007 (UTC).

Link n.2

[12]

Foi neste contexto de globalização financeira que se inseriu o Brasil na década de 1990, de início com o Plano Collor, mas especialmente com o Plano Real de 1994, inaugurando um novo ciclo de endividamento e uma nova forma de inserção da economia brasileira nas relações financeiras internacionais.

a década de 1990, acompanhando o movimento geral de liberalização, o Brasil muda radicalmente sua atitude, no sentido não mais de restringir, mas de “seduzir” o capital estrangeiro a ingressar no pais. O processo de liberalização, especialmente a comercial, inicia com o governo Collor, mas a liberalização financeira é executada sobretudo no governo de Fernando Henrique Cardoso. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 11:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Good now

I think it looks very good now

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 12:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Us?

Hello,

Iam not putting word son yr mouth. The issue here is not our opinion --it´s Collor´s goals. There are hundreds of links that fully prove that the battle againt hyper-inflation(which his plan in fact won!) was the core of his government.

The artcile is not what we think abt Collor, but histpry and reality facts. We donot matter, he matters, history matters. All links provided fully point to that.

He said :

it is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed (see here).

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 16:38-16:43, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Links again

Well, as I quoted below [above] you agree he ended hyper-inflation. Iam not malicious: the reality is driving, giving us direction towards his accomplishments. All links provided prove that:

1. Ended hyper-inflation (with which you agreed); Yr words: "It is correct (and indeed sourced) to say that Collor ended hyperinflation, but even then his inflation rates were no picnic and most of his reforms failed";

2. Inflation declined by 1994 (with FHC); all links provided prove FHC follow his macroeconomic agenda. Although you can say a few detalis were different (of course, another world/local scenario), he maintained privatization, free trade, debt reduction (once he found a comfortable secenario with no pressure of hyper-inflation) this agenda begun with Collor; If you don´t agree with that you must prove the contrary, you must offer link that deny that --and not put the blame on me, by saying "Iam driving the text".

3. Once you provide link, citations, quotations, then we can start talking;

4. This link [13] talks abt "revolution", abt "there is no word to express what this woman accomplished in such a short period of time"; and "end of hyperinflation". "Só isso já bastaria para que a ministra Zélia fosse reconhecida como alguém que assentou tijolos importantes na catedral da estabilização".

4(a): This link [14] also cites the "end of hyper-inflation", the free trade, competiotion and provatization;

5. Here, again: the continiyu from Collor to FHC to Lula [15];

6. A link to the privatizatio issue and all its benefits: [16]

7. The continiy again from Collor to FHC, to Lula: "Tais políticas - iniciadas com a abertura do governo Collor - foram continuadas por Fernando Henrique Cardoso e Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, segundo economistas e industriais ouvidos pela Folha." [17]

8. Collor privatized 15 government-owned companies: [18] Programa Nacional de Desestatização: [19] -- [20]

9. According to Bresser Pereira: "O governo Collor mudou a agenda política do país, pois conseguiu implementar reformas corajosas e muito necessárias, e buscou o ajustamento fiscal. Embora outras tentativas tenham sido feitas desde 1987, foi durante o governo Collor que as velhas idéias nacional-desenvolvimentistas foram efetivamente enfrentadas e combatidas (...) por um programa corajoso de reformas econômicas orientadas para a liberalização comercial e a privatização. (...) E o fato de um líder político adotar políticas de ajustamento fiscal e reformas orientadas para o mercado não significa que seja um neoliberal." [21]

"Collor iniciou o programa nacional de privatização no Brasil, mas as mais importantes privatizações, e de longe o maior número delas, aconteceram durante o primeiro governo de Fernando Henrique Cardoso. Em 1998, Fernando Henrique já tinha privatizado a Companhia Vale do Rio Doce - CVRD, uma das maiores e mais rentáveis empresas estatais do país, assim como muitos outros monopólios de utilidade pública (água, rodovias e energia elétrica" [22]

10. Links concerning Collor´s economic agenda and the citations of a continuity from him to FHC and Lula are important in order to offer the reader a proper context of Collor´s place in the history and how his accomplishments are still playing an impotrtant part of our reality.

11. Temos aí o início do que chamamos de aventura, ou calvário, dos servidores públicos federais contra esse Estado neoliberal, uma transição em curso para uma possível quarta fase do Estado brasileiro, que pretendia — e ainda pretende — destruir totalmente a propriedade estatal em nosso País. Esse é o modelo apresentado e já em andamento no segundo mandato de Fernando Henrique. Sabemos que o ex-Presidente Collor privatizou e extinguiu órgãos, entretanto a fragilidade de sua figura, a representação de seu Governo, as próprias irregularidades não permitiram que esse processo fosse consolidado. Aí veio esse processo de transição do Governo Itamar Franco. Esse projeto foi gestado e organizado para aplicação nacional. As principais ações foram as de elaborar uma política monetária que levou ao nascimento do Plano Real e do real em si e forjou um Presidente que pudesse articular os diversos setores dominantes, e esse Presidente foi Fernando Henrique Cardoso. [23]

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 17:14-18:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

?

I don´t know if that suffices.... I hope so and if this is not sufficient, I do look forward to see links that could deny all these. I also hope we can percolate to History of Brasil and Collor Plan, or any other artcile concerning these issues. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 18:44, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Status Quo

I think the status quo of the article is fine now. Ludovica, if you have an issue with the changes, grab the rationale I've given in my edits and we can talk about it here.--Dali-Llama 19:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Tks! I hope, as you said, we can percolate to all the other articles.

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 19:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Already done.--Dali-Llama 19:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Good faith

I´d like to understand:

You said that all conclusions on this talk page should percolate to the other article.

1. You deleted the insertion on Plano Collor article.

2. Delete the last paragraph (without a reasonable justification); inserted a no citation, no link, no quatation phrase: "Acesita was the only provatized" --which is not true. Collor privatized, as I linked above, 15 companies!!

4. You also deleted in large scale privatization program: it was, as Scielo links states, one of the world´s largest priv. program.

Pls, do assume good faith. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 19:45, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

(1) Yes, in what we agreed was original research and unsourced should be removed. That's what I did. You can add the content you added before, but make sure it fits with the text: just copying and pasting doesn't work.

(2) You're partially correct: it was poorly phrased. I'm reverting and changing it to "Of these, with the exception of Acesita, the privatizations were all completed during the term of Fernando Henrique Cardoso." I'm not saying he didn't privatize, I wanted to make the point the companies that were specifically mentioned were actually privatized during FHC's administration.

(4) Yes, "large scale" is relative. Is large scale quantity or size? I figure it's more NPOV to just remove the size. The same thing with "technological revolution". --Dali-Llama 19:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

And why do you keep reverting the last section? It's perfectly reasonable to say that he was found not-guilty of corruption directly AFTER the impeachment, not in a section about what he's doing 14 years later! --Dali-Llama 19:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Priv. and tech revolution

Tech revolution is cited in "Isto é Dinheiro" link;

Large scale is quantity, many, dozens of compnies were privatized.

yr infos are wrong, uncited, misleading --and yr are showing explicty no good faith, reverting Plano Collor. There is no problem with copy/paste --the core of the Plano Collor is already written.

You can keep this reference to not-guilty after impeachment.

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 20:12, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't add any info! Overall, I'm trying to remove information which two separate editors have found to be WP:OR and WP:POV! In the case of technological revolution, that's NOT in the source--they don't mention the word technology. So that's an unsourced conclusion. And what you said about the non-guilty thing I don't understand: What do you mean I can keep it? --Dali-Llama 20:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Inflation

Thus, as a result ^[5], inflation reached 50 percent per month by June 1994 and averaged 31.2 percent a month in 1994, for total of 2,294.0 percent that year. Inherited from Plano Collor, as result of Real Plan (Fernando Henrique Cardoso, Collor´s successor), inflation declined to monthly rates of between 1 and 3 percent in 1995, for an annual rate of 25.9 percent. In 1996: 16.5 percent; 1997: 7.2 percent. By 2006: 3,18% annualy. ^[6].

Why are you reverting something that two different people have told you shouldn't be here? --Dali-Llama 20:27, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Links

you two can agree -- but must cite, provide links. I did provide several links that prove that Collor started a macroeconomic agenda that FHC inherited and expanded, so did Lula. If you two can deny this, then we can start to discuss. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 20:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

And for the 8th time: Positive affirmations require positive proof. You're saying that the inflation for the next 14 years was inherited from Collor. The source you've provided does not affirm that, as Coren has confirmed. You need to find a source which states that and until then it should not be in the article. --Dali-Llama 20:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Proof

This link provides the proof, along with the others: [24] Tais políticas - iniciadas com a abertura do governo Collor - foram continuadas por Fernando Henrique Cardoso e Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, segundo economistas e industriais ouvidos pela Folha. O binômio juros altos e câmbio valorizado, que marcou tanto o governo do PSDB quanto o do PT, seria o principal responsável pelo estrangulamento do setor, segundo esses analistas.

Anyway, can you offer a link to deny that. You can´t just delete without proof.

The Bresser Pereira PDF also provides that. I´d like Coren and you to provide a link. Ludovicapipa ^yes?

THAT'S NOT TALKING ABOUT INFLATION! THAT was mine and Coren's point! You keep going on these proxy conclusions which completely violate WP:OR. It's the Koprowki example I gave before. You use a completely disconnected source and try to link them together to make a point! --Dali-Llama 20:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Is it better? check the words inflation and hyper

Zelia started a whole stabilization process and the set oof for th end of infaltion. Can you provide links that deny thta?

4. This link [25] talks abt "revolution", abt "there is no word to express what this woman accomplished in such a short period of time"; and "end of hyperinflation". "Só isso já bastaria para que a ministra Zélia fosse reconhecida como alguém que assentou tijolos importantes na catedral da estabilização".

4(a): This link [26] also cites the "end of hyper-inflation", the free trade, competiotion and provatization;

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 20:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, that's only talking about the achievements during her time in office, not how they have a relation to the inflation rates of 14 years later!!!--Dali-Llama 20:53, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it´s fully cited: she "Só isso já bastaria para que a ministra Zélia fosse reconhecida como alguém que assentou tijolos importantes na catedral da estabilização".

Can you deny that providing a link? Ludovicapipa ^yes? 20:55, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that she was important! I'm disputing that you're attributing low inflation rates 14 years in the future to a policy which was scrapped and replaced by the Plano Real! And you're doing that without a source that says so: you're taking two different sources (current inflation rates and an interview with Zélia) and synthesizing them, which is clearly not allowed by Wikipedia policy! --Dali-Llama 20:58, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

No, Iam jsut saying she prepared the way for the end of inflation. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 21:09, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Would you accept this?:

:Although Zelia acknowledges that Plano Collor didn´t end inflation, she stated: "It is also possible to see with clarity that, under very difficult conditions, we promoted the equalization of the national debt --and that, together with the commercial opening, it created the bases for the implantation of Plano real" ^[7]. By the time the Plano real was ready to be launched in 1994, inflation was at 50 percent per month by June 1994 and averaged 31.2 percent a month in 1994, for total of 2,294.0 percent that year. ^[8]

This acknowledges what Zelia takes credit for: paving the way for the Real, but not for inflation rate 14 years after she left office. --Dali-Llama 21:14, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Acesita

And pls you also must explain/cite why did you write "Acesita" was the only privatized company. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 20:38, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I have already addressed the issue in a response earlier today. Read my comments carefully. --Dali-Llama 20:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Will you accept this compromise?

Change:

Collor´s neoliberal program was then followed by his successors [8] Fernando Henrique Cardoso and Lula da Silva [9] who maintained free trade, large scale privatization program and technical revolution.[10] Collor's administration began the process of privatization of a number of government-owned enterprises such as Acesita, Embraer, Telebrás and Companhia Vale do Rio Doce.[11] which benefit from this and became highly efficient powerful multinational companies [12].

to:

Collor´s neoliberal program was then followed by his successors ^[9] Itamar Franco and Fernando Henrique Cardoso ^[10] who maintained free trade and privatization programs.^[11] Collor's administration began the process of privatization of a number of government-owned enterprises such as Acesita, Embraer, Telebrás and Companhia Vale do Rio Doce.^[12] Of these four, with the exception of Acesita, the privatizations were completed during the term of Fernando Henrique Cardoso.

I've changed to reflect your (and mine) concerns over Acesita.--Dali-Llama 21:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

1. Ok,, I dont´see much difference on the text.

2. "Corruption charges lifted and Senate election" are very basic and important and obvious informations --should remain there. I will revert if you continue to delete.

3. Acesita it´s wrong info. Check the link above. He privatized many more.

4. Lula da Silva still follow his agenda. I again see yr no good fait, trying to let Lula out of it. All links talk about it --how many times, how many links do you want? Lula himself, during campaign, promised to keep, continue the agnda. That´s why he had so much support from the elite. He wouldn´t have won without this compromise. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 23:26, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Political rights restoration

By that time he lost his rights but they were restored. And he could ryn teh elections -- and win. You didnt´mention that. Did you?Ludovicapipa ^yes? 00:22, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This is impressive.

It's clear there's no rational argument with you, Ludovica. It's obvious to me your sole intention is to defend Collor, and not to improve the article. This was evident to me when you gave me a link where you blatantly searched Google for evidence which supported your viewpoints (here. I've tried to propose compromise edits, I've recognized significant contributions Collor has made--you still will not accept any changes (even grammar corrections). Whenever I made edits to issues which you did not respond to, I've been reverted. You've made personal attacks and questioned my age (!?). I brought in another editor to give an opinion: he disagreed with you, and you ignored him. You then had two experienced Wikipedia editors telling you that your edits were against policy and you rejected our opinions. I won't get into an edit war with you. I'm asking for an RfC.--Dali-Llama 00:33, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Biography Issues

Past couple of days, myself and Ludovicapipa have been conflicting over changes to the biography of Collor, a former president of Brazil. A third-opinion by Coren was not accepted by one of the parties, so we have moved on to RFC. Here are the open issues and original editors' respective opinions on the matter:

• Change:

Collor´s neoliberal program was then followed by his successors umtil present days[9] Itamar Franco, Fernando Henrique Cardoso and Lula da Silva [10] who maintained free trade and privatization programs.[11] Collor's administration began the process of privatization of a number of government-owned enterprises such as Acesita, Embraer, Telebrás and Companhia Vale do Rio Doce.[12] which benefit from this and became highly efficient multinational companies.

to

Collor´s privatization program was then expanded by his successors, Itamar Franco and Fernando Henrique Cardoso. Collor's administration began the process of privatization of a number of government-owned enterprises such as Acesita, Embraer, Telebrás and Companhia Vale do Rio Doce.^[13] With the exception of Acesita, these privatizations were completed during the term of Fernando Henrique Cardoso.

Discussion The first source mentions specifically only macroeconomic policy on industrial growth: not free trade or privatization (Lula has not carried out any major privatizations). The only factually correct and incontrovertible assertion here is that the privatizations were initiated, but not completed, durng Collor's term. He did privatize 15 smaller companies, but of the four mentioned here, only Acesita was privatized during his term: the others were privatized anywhere between 4 and 8 years after he left office. --Dali-Llama 00:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No: The "Scielo" source mentions privatization. Lula da Silva, as several links I provided, carried out FMC and FHC plan. His speech, when he assumed presidency, was a public compromise to maintain FHC´s policies.

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 00:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that Lula followed FHC. I'm disputing that FHC followed Collor. I agree that Collor laid a lot of the groundwork for FHC, but there's a reason he needed a radically different economic policy, dubbed Plano Real --Dali-Llama 04:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

• Remove:

"Thus, as a result of this historical deed ^[14], inflation reached 50 percent per month by June 1994 and averaged 31.2 percent a month in 1994, for total of 2,294.0 percent that year. Inherited from Plano Collor, as result of Real Plan (Fernando Henrique Cardoso, Collor´s successor), inflation declined to monthly rates of between 1 and 3 percent in 1995, for an annual rate of 25.9 percent. In 1996: 16.5 percent; 1997: 7.2 percent. By 2006: 3,18% annualy. ^[15].

Discussion Both myself and User:Coren feel this statement is WP:OR. Collor left office on December 30, 1992. This paragraph begins by citing inflation rates nearly 2 years to 14 years after Collor left office. The source provided does not attribute the rates to Collor, or say that it was because of his Plano Collor that the Plano Real worked. And "historical deeds" is incredibly POV. --Dali-Llama 00:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No: as I´ve said, many citations prove Zelia opened the doors (as Bresser Pereira said), and prepared the way by ending hyper-infaltion. Dali agree (as you can see above, that she ended hyper-inflation). Several citations prove she ended it and enabled the deflation process.

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 00:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

My argument stands. You're attributing inflation figures today to an economic policy that happened 14 years ago, without a source that says so explicitly. Bringing it down from 300% a month to 30% is quite an achievement, but that's still 20 to 30 times higher than the rate we have today. Never mind the fact that we've had an entirely different economic policy since then (Plano Real). So again, until you can find a quote that credits that inflation rate to Collor, it should go.--Dali-Llama 04:11, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I did cite: "and that, together with the commercial opening, it created the bases for the implantation of Plano real". Revista época. It proves the continuity from FCM to FHC. I didn´t credit inflation rates to Collor --it was FHC´s achiviements, but propitiated by Collor. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 13:47, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

It´s not up to me, to you, or to the article to offer details for this differences between the two plans. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ludovicapipa (talk • contribs) 14:18, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

• Relocate and rename:

== Corruption charges lifted and Senate election ==

Despite of all this political process, in 2006, 14 years after his resignation and with political rights restored, Collor was elected to the Brazilian senate (44,03% votes), representing his state, Alagoas ^[16]. All corruption charges against him were lifted ^[17]. The Brazilian Supreme Court even officially stated that all accusations were unfounded ^[18]: declaring there was no proof to stablish a link between the allegeldy personal expenses paid by money raised by Paulo César Farias through his influence peddling scheme and Collor.

Change section title to: "Post-Presidency" and move all impeachment information to the above impeachment section.

Discussion Should be relatively simple and the reasons obvious, but Ludovica disagrees. The impeachment facts mentioned here have all taken place in the 1993-94 time period, not 2006 as did the Senate election. --Dali-Llama 00:39, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Very grave

Corruption charges lifted and Senate election

Despite of all this political process, in 2006, 14 years after his resignation and with political rights restored, Collor was elected to the Brazilian senate (44,03% votes), representing his state, Alagoas [17]. All corruption charges against him were lifted [18]. The Brazilian Supreme Court even officially stated that all accusations were unfounded [19]: declaring there was no proof to stablish a link between the allegedly personal expenses paid by money raised by Paulo César Farias through his influence peddling scheme and Collor.

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 00:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Citation:

"Apesar de condenado pelo Congresso — Collor foi derrotado no processo de impeachment em dezembro de 1992 — o ex-presidente foi absolvido pelo STF por falta de provas. Por cinco votos a três, os ministros consideraram improcedente a denúncia do procurador-geral. Segundo os ministros que votaram pela absolvição, Junqueira não conseguiu demonstrar que Collor cometeu algum ato, por ação ou omissão, em contrapartida por alguma vantagem recebida indevidamente.

Uma das provas que faltaram ao processo foi a origem dos US$ 6,5 milhões repassados por PC Farias a Collor para pagamentos de despesas pessoais. Não havia no processo qualquer ato administrativo do ex-presidente em favor das empresas que abasteceram as contas de PC."

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 00:58, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

this is the opposite of yr text, Dali. Iam sorry, citations fully prove that he had his policital rights fully restored (you don´t mention that), you also omit the very fact that he run for the Senate and won; you also omit that the scheme you´ve metioned was officially declared unfounded by the Supreme Court. [27]

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 00:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

His rights were restored only when his 8-year sentence was completed! When he ran for mayor in 2000, his candidacy was denied by the courts! Don't take my word for it: Here's the judicial decision. --Dali-Llama 03:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

yes, i agree, but even that you´ve omited. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 13:35, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Pstu opinion

Lula está aplicando a cartilha do FMI e aprofundando a política econômica de FHC. Os banqueiros receberam R$ 51 bilhões de juros em 5 meses. Lula está desviando mais dinheiro para pagar juros das dívidas aos banqueiros do que o governo anterior. Aceitou concluir a negociação da Alca em 2005. Em vez de reestatizar empresas privatizadas, permite que as multinacionais aumentem tarifas em mais de 29%. [28]

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 00:55, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Lula´s interview

Sexta, 14 de julho de 2006, 20h28 Atualizada às 21h00

Lula se diz longe da esquerda e quer manter política econômi

http://noticias.terra.com.br/eleicoes2006/interna/0,,OI1070437-EI6652,00.html

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 01:02, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Isto é

Lula and Palocci following FHC agenda: [29]

Ludovicapipa ^yes? 01:04, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Political rights xx civil rights

The court did not reinstate Collor's political rights.

It´s not up to the Court to restore his political rights. They can´t do that. Ludovicapipa ^yes? 11:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

You're right, they didn't reinstate them, but Collor thought they could. That's one of the reasons he went to the STF. He argued that because he resigned before the impeachment he shouldn't lose his political rights:

"Mas seu destino político foi objeto da deliberação do Superior Tribunal de Justiça (STJ) em 16 de dezembro seguinte. Os três ministros mais antigos do órgão mantiveram as penas de inelegibilidade e de impedimento de exercer cargos públicos por oito anos, entendendo que a renúncia de Collor constituíra um ato de "esperteza jurídica".[30]

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dalillama (talk • contribs) 17:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)