Talk:Feodosiya

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[edit] Comments

I suggest the page to be moved to Feodosiya. It is both Russian and Ukrainian name, and also closer to the original Greek pronunciation. I believe that Theodosia is rarely used even in English. --Ghirlandajo 14:38, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm awfully sorry, but it is Theodosia!

1) This is a Greek name, and as it is Θεοδωσία (not Φεοδωσηία), according to the rules of transliteration from Greek into English it is spelled Theodosia.

Don Alessandro 13:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

This is not a Greek town. Use the Russian/Ukrainian spelling. --Ghirla | talk 13:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

2) We do not write Moskva an Sankt-Peterburg, instead of Moscow and St. Petersburg.

Don Alessandro 13:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Because these cities have long-established names in English. Feodosiya doesn't. --Ghirla | talk 13:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

It does, beleive me. See The Encyclopaedia Britannica for example. And during the Crimean War it was also known as Theodosia.

Don Alessandro 14:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

You might have as well cited the Encyclopédie! This edition was issued in 1911. Since then, Britannica revised its mistake and put the article at Feodosiya. --Ghirla | talk 15:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

3) Theodosia is rarely used even in English

If we ask Google, it will answer

Results 1 - 10 of about 21,800 for Theodosia + Crimea

Results 1 - 10 of about 16,900 for Feodosiya + Crimea

Don Alessandro 13:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

This is plain wrong. --Ghirla | talk 13:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Hm... I usually simply do this - http://www.google.ru/search?hl=en&q=Theodosia%2C+Crimea and this - http://www.google.ru/search?hl=en&q=Feodosiya%2C+Crimea

Actually, the majority of Feodosiyas can be find on Russian and Ukrainian sites or in transliterations such as feodosiya.jpg www.feodosiya.crimea.ua, etc. And most Russians and Ukrainians unfortunately do not know the English name of the city.

Don Alessandro 14:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

4) closer to the original Greek pronunciation

NO! Greek letter Θ is pronounced as English th in think. You can find it here http://www.omniglot.com/writing/greek.htm if you don' believe me.

Don Alessandro 13:19, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what it is pronounced like in English. The Russian pronunciation is closer to the original Greek than the English one. --Ghirla | talk 13:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The Russian pronunciation is closer to the original Greek than the English one.

I repeat one more time - NO!!! The English pronunciation is closer to the original Greek than the Russian one. Greek letter Θ is pronounced as Enlish th in think, but not as Russain Ф! Греческая буква Θ произносится как английское th в слове think, а совсем не как русское Ф! Я же дал ссылку! Или если вы и омниглоту не верите, то послушайте где-нибудь греческую речь.

Извините, если был чересчур резок.

Don Alessandro 14:50, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alexader, Isac, etc.

Anittas added correct detailes, but not on the topic. Alexader Havras and Isaac Havras were the rulers of the Principality of Theodoro, south-western Crimea. In 1475 Stephen III of Moldavia really helped his brother-in-law, Alexander, to replace Isaac. But these facts are not simpliciter connected with the history of Genoesian Caffa. Don Alessandro 16:23, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, this is about the city of Caffa, isn't it? Caffa redirects here, so how can it not be on topic? Stephen was married to a Byzantine princess whose father was the ruler of Mangup Kale. He would probably have Stephen inherit his land, or part of his land. Venice and Genoa wanted Stephen to make a coalition with the Tatars against the Ottomans, and for this he needed to secure and gain power in that area (Caffa and Mangup). He sent 500 men to defend the fortress, but that wasn't enough. After Battle of Vaslui, Stephen was too weak to try and defend the fortress, but he still tried. When the two fortresses fell, Stephen was then attacked from two directions: Tatars attacked from north and the Ottomans from the south. The Tatars were destroyed, but the Ottomans would advance, even after lossing 30,000, and gain a victory at the Battle of Valea Alba. Venice and Genoa then tried again to make a coalition, or at least have Stephen to regain the fortresses, but the Pope had no money to send him, so the cause was lost. Forty-thousand people were enslaved from the Principality of Magup and sent to Constantinople. Only one ship made it to Moldavia, where a Greek was captain of. He killed the Turks and drove in to Chilia. I think that adding two sentences explaining the fall of the city is quite important. I don't understand why Ghir must remove everything that I write. I would like the info readded. --Candide, or Optimism 01:14, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Btw, I think that the other name versions should be added to the info, including the Italian version of the name (Caffa or Kaffa). --Candide, or Optimism 10:33, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

In 1475, Stephen III of Moldavia sent his brother-in-law, Alexander Gabras, to Caffa with the purpose of replacing a local ruler from the Gabrades family, who was Alexander's own brother and vassal to the Ottomans.

Dear friends! Stephen III sent Alexander Gabras (Havras, Gavras) not to Caffa, but to the city of Theodoro (Feodoro) - today's Mangup-Kale. And Isaac Gabras was the Prince of Theodoro. The House of Gabras was the ruling family of the Principality of Theodoro. Gabrases never ruled Caffa, and even never lived there! Genoesian Caffa and Greek Theodoro were two differen states, and there were several wars between them. That is why I've said that Anittas' additions were not on the topic. These facts are quite correct, but they have no direct connection to the history of the city of Caffa. Don Alessandro 12:54, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Although I touched the topic of the Gabrades in various articles in the past, I feel I have to write a separate article for this confusion to cease. --Ghirla | talk 13:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, in that case, I apologize. I confused Theodoro to Theodosia. The info should be removed from this article. I know for sure that both Caffa and Mangup-Kale were allies of Moldavia. It would be nice to have a map for these cities. Don, if you have more info on Stephen and his relation to Caffa, and his pretentions to the land, or whatever, feel free to inform me on my talkpage. Thanks. --Candide, or Optimism 14:00, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] City name

I agree with Ghirlandajo that the page should be moved to Feodosiya. GoogleEarth has it mentioned as Feodosiya; that should account for something. Errabee 15:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Modern Britannica[1] and media use Feodosiya. I support moving it. --Irpen 20:42, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Theodosia is antiquated, although I like the sound of it. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 07:31, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

In that case we should move St. Petersburg to Sankt-Peterburg and Moscow to Moskva. Cossack 07:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Not really. The modern English books and media use Moscow for the capital of Russia. For whatever reason they use Feodosiya for this Crimean city. We should just use the most recognizable name which is the most frequently used one. The usage changed since 1911. If in another 100 years NYTimes and Britannica will consistently use Moskva, WP will do so too (provided all three will still be around). --Irpen 07:41, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

There is a Theodosia, Missouri which according to this was founded in 1886 and re-founded in 1960 with no connection at all to Theodosia/Feodosia. A (weak) argument in favour of making the shift, perhaps? --Pan Gerwazy 12:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we should go for accuracy and style, and not copying the media and Britannica? Cossack 20:16, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"Copying the media" is another name for "following the most widely accepted English usage", which is required by WP:NC. --Irpen 02:40, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

(1) Per GoogleFight, Feodosia is the most widely used name.

(2) Theodosia is the original Greek name. Feodosiya is the Russian name, as the city was part of Russian Empire, and RSFSR. Feodosiia is the Ukrainian name, as the city was part of Ukrainian SSR and now is part of Ukraine.

(3) The city is located in Ukraine. If it has no unique widely accepted English name (as it likely), per WP:NC, "for geographic names in Ukraine, the Ukrainian National system is used", which prescibes to use Feodosiia. --MapLover 21:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe that originally Феодосия was spelled with the letter Fita (Ѳ), and would be thus properly transliterated from its Greek origins as "Th". Cossack 23:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)