Talk:Fennoman movement

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I wonder about this line: "Those Fennomans originally Swedish-speaking learned Finnish, and made a point of using it both in the society and at home, giving their children what they missed themselves: the Finnish mother tongue."

I know this is true for some of the Fennomans, but I don't think that the likes of Runeberg and Topelius ever started using Finnish at home or in society for that matter. I've tried to find information on that they did, but I haven't found any. I just found more saying the opposite. Therefore I will change the text to saying that "some of the fennomans made a point..." and so on. If you find some info that I haven't, please write here to let others know where it can be found.

--Kike_B

[edit] Runeberg, Topelius and Sibelius

Is there anything to suggest that these three were Fennomans? They all had a strong streak of Finnish patrionism, but that's not the same thing as being a Fennoman. Unless some evidence can be presented showing that they were Fennomans in the sense of the word used in this article, I'll remove them. JdeJ 10:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Lönnrot was definitely a Fennoman since he compiled Kalevala which was important in the struggle for Finnish language. Sibelius was interested in Karelianism which can be seen for example in Karelia Suite, he also went to Finnish speaking school. Topelius supported making Finnish an official language which makes him a Fennoman without a doubt (BTW his family's original name was the Finnish name Toppila). So at least these three are going back --Jaakko Sivonen 20:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Word etymology

Could you please add the explanation where this word came from. As it appears some people misunderstood it already. Suva 15:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Britannica calls them "Fennomen" [1] Martintg 02:49, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Finnish: Fennomaani, from Finnish: Fennomania, from Fenno mania. -- Petri Krohn 09:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
If that was true, the English translation would be Fennomaniac. Digwuren 15:16, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean, "if that was true"? It is true, take a look at Swedish and Finnish Wikipedias. The word originally means a nationalist ideology that follows in tracks of the earlier fennophiles. Ideology was called in Swedish "fennomani", then later in Finnish "fennomania". The opposing ideology was then "svekomani" in Swedish, "svekomania" in Finnish. Similarly one who subscribed to the ideology was "fennoman" in Swedish and "fennomaani" in Finnish, and in plural "fennomaner" and "fennomaanit" respectively. The word stems quite clearly from the word "mania". You can compare it to other words like that, for example "kleptomania" is "kleptomani" in Swedish and "kleptomania" in Finnish, person suffering from it, "kleptomaniac", is "kleptoman" in Swedish and "kleptomaani" in Finnish, similarly plural for that is "kleptomaniacs", "kleptomaner" and "kleptomaanit" respectively. It is simply ridiculous to state that the word could stem from the word "man", when it is also used as a name for ideology. Besides, while "man" is also "man" in Swedish, its plural is "män" and plural with definite article "männen", also "man" as in "human" is "människa"; in Finnish "man" can be Swedish loanword "manni" but normally is "mies", also "man" as in "human" is "ihminen". This should show that etymology from the word "man" is impossible and the word "mania" is the only origin, and this etymology is also supported by Finnish and Swedish dictionaries.
Of course, English is not logical in this subject. You are indeed correct that the idea should be called "fennomania" and the person "fennomaniac" in English. However when English borrowed the words that refer to the supporters of these ideas from Swedish, it borrowed them unchanged in their Swedish form as "fennoman" and "svekoman", often changing only the first part of the latter to get "svecoman". Therefore the correct translation "fennomaniac" never came in use in English. As it is, the English word "fennoman" is in general usage despite its incorrect formation. As such, it must be seen as a direct borrowing from Swedish, to which the standard plural form -s is added when needed. Those believing that the ending means man instead of mania/maniac an then even use -men as plural have simply misunderstood the issue. Thus Encyclopedia Britannica is, sadly, wrong on this particular issue.130.234.5.136 14:27, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I see, so "besättningsman" -> "crew maniac" and "rikeman" -> "rich maniac"? Is the Swedish word for "sex maniac" -> "sexman"? I thought "galning" or "dåre" was Swedish for "maniac". Martintg 21:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
No. Instead of making smarty remarks, try reading the above again. Never said that the ending -man couldn't mean "man"; it does so in most words, indeed. But -maniac is also -man in Swedish, even though it's only present on a handful of words, like kleptoman or pyroman. You can see the differences between these two endings by looking at their plurals, like already explained, which you unfortunately didn't seem to care take time reading. Let's try your examples: plural of "besättningsman" is "besättningsmän", plural of "rikeman" is "rikemän" so these follow the plural of the word man, full inflection of which is: en man, mannen, män, männen. But plurals of "kleptoman" or "pyroman" don't follow this model, for they are "kleptomaner" and "pyromaner". Makes sense, doesn't it, as these word endings do not signify "man" as in "male"/"human" but come from "mania", in Swedish "mani". Two different things, is this really so hard to understand?
I understand the current English usage of the words mania and maniac is rather derogatory, but earlier on these were used rather synonymously with other terms like passion, zeal or enthusiasm, with both positive and negative sides, though naturally some terms like megalomania were never too favourable. Your "sex maniac" illustrates that the current usage pretty much puts "maniac" there instead of some other pejorative such as "crazed" or "mad", which is indeed what those translations "galning" or "dåre" would mean. Even so, as a word ending it still has its style, see "erotomaniac". Historically, the mere amity towards a nationality is termed -philia, while higher enthusiasm could earn term -mania; compare "anglophilia" and "anglomania". Someone with former is "anglophile", with latter, "anglomaniac". Same with "francomania" or "gallomania". Similarly to those, in Swedish arose an idea of "fennomani" [2], which would properly be translated to English as "fennomania". A person with such idea is "fennoman" [3], which would be "fennomaniac" in proper English. But as said, the word came to English unchanged as "fennoman"; such a loan word takes the normal -s ending, and must not be confused with false etymologies from "men". --130.234.5.138 00:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
  • 35 books that mention "Fennomen" [4] Martintg 11:35, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Fennomans: 1860 Google hits [5], Fennomen: 3360 Google hits [6] Martintg 11:39, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
64 books use "Fennomans". Many of the "Fennomen" googles are misprints or mistypes for "Fenomen" (one n), which is German for "phenomenon" (even two Fennomen book googles look like they rather refer to that) and is also a hip hop group ([7]). --Pan Gerwazy 19:42, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, lets remove those two googled book references, that is stil 33 books mentioning "fennomen" compared to 64 mentioning "fennomans", a significant number by any standard, so it is not all that clear cut. Martintg 21:30, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Translating it to -maniac would be incorrect and biased since the word "mania" does not have the negative meaning in Finnish that it has in English. "Maniac" alone would never be translated as maani but more like hullu etc... Thus including the word maniac gives the impression that the writers have something personal against this movement, especially since there isn't a mention of "Svecomaniac" in the article Svecoman... --88.114.235.214 19:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Let's see what Wikipedia says on the subject:
I cannot see any difference in the use of the word maniac between Finnish and English. It is evident from the context that we are not calling Fennomans or Svecomans serial killers. -- Petri Krohn 22:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a reliable source as anyone working on it knows, that page doesn't even cite sources... I will quote a dictionary on maniac:
  • 1 : MADMAN, LUNATIC
  • 2 : a person characterized by an inordinate or ungovernable enthusiasm for something
Source: [8] Are you claiming that "madman" or "ungovernable enthusiasm" are neutral words to describe people whose aim was to elevate the language spoken by their Fatherland's majority? --88.114.235.214 20:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)