Talk:Fenian

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[edit] Is Fenian an insult?

This page is associated with a controversial issue and I do not think it confirms to the neutrality policy - the article states that Fenian "is a term used by unionists". I think an amendment should be made to this page, similar to the page for taig to state that this term is used by some unionists, and not all of them. I consider myself a unionist and do not use this term.

Well, I come from the west of Scotland, and I have certainly heard people use it as a derogatory term for Roman Catholics, in fact this is the first time I have heard it claimed that it only applies specifically to Celtic supporters. PatGallacher 16:47, 2005 May 17 (UTC)
I also come from the west of Scotland, fenian is considered to be like swearing, I have never heard the word being used in any other context other than as an insult to Celtic supporters. I have also heard the word being used by Celtic supporters about themselves, for example in the song: "Bold fenian men". I have heard some claim that the word means Catholic, could it be that this is a crude attempt to accuse others of sectarianism?
Here's a link to the version of that song with which I'm familiar: http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiGLNSFEN;ttGLNSFEN.html

RB 12Dec05

Well, I have heard the term used a number of ways, but usually as a derogatory term for Catholics. I'm not disputing that it can be a strong insult, almost like a swearword. It may be that some Catholics use the term ironically, a bit like the way some blacks use "nigger", but this still means the term is primarily negative. In the song "Glorio to the bold Fenian men", as anyone familiar with the song will know, the term is used in its orginal meaning of the Irish Republican Brotherhood, specifically it is a reference to their rising of the mid-19th century, I may be able to dig up the full words from somewhere.PatGallacher 12:32, 2005 May 19 (UTC)
It may mean Catholic, it certainly is not a word that you would use in most people's company as it would be considered offensive. The ironic nature may be true, maybe this could be mentioned in the article. Also is the term ever used against other Roman Catholics, for example people of Italian origin?
As someone who took Canadian history in a Canadian higschool I'll say that this appears more or less like it did in our history books. Also I've never even heard of it being an offensive term. As far as we know it's a specific political movement. I got a good chuckled. From my perspective it'd be like considering "NRA" to be offesive --Anonymous Canadian
Part of my family are Italian Roman Catholic, and there is a large Italian contingent in my town, and I have never heard the word 'Fenian' to be used against them, or in any context which pertains to them. My belif is that Fenian has taken on something of a derogtory tone in that, as 'Negro' was used to describe a black person and 'Nigger' was the corrupted insult -- which can be seen in books like 'To Kill A Mockingbird' and literature written about that time -- Fenian may be used to describe an Irish nationalist but, especially in cases such as Old Firm games, calling someone a "f--king Fenian" is most probably not a compliment.
My great-grandfather was proud to have taken part in the Fenian invasion of Canada. If he saw no insult in the word, neither do I. It may be different in UK, but it seems that on the west side of the Atlantic the word has no openly negative connotation. Besdies, "Fenian" could never become "the f-word!"--KevinOB 23:33, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Most Irish would consider "Fenian" to be an archaic term - it certainly fell out of common use by the 1920s in Ireland. Those who would in earlier times have been drawn the Fenians, would now have been drawn to the Irish Republican Brotherhood (early 1900's) or the Irish Republican Army (late 1900s). Current usage is (as mentioned) purely reserved as an intense insult by sectarians toward Catholics or Irish in Scotland and Northern Ireland - effectively alleging the share beliefs and goals of the Irish Republican Army.
To people from the Republic of Ireland, such an archaic insult, would be as amusing - and confusing - as an American might find being called "A bloody colonial" by someone from England-- JohnPLooney 2 July 2005
In Ireland,the word is not used too much in the south but when it is it not as a slag.It is used as a secterian offense in troubled parts of the 6 counties.--Fenian Swine 00:12, 24 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the word is normally used in an offensive way by bigots. However, many like myself would respond to being called a Fenian by saying 'Damn right, I am'. Whilst I would never use the word myself directly I would not allow it to be used as an insult. However simply stating that the word is not an insult is incorrect as it is almost always used in an offensive manner.--Greynolds999 01:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Fenians

There is a large historical literature on the Fenians, eg Comerford, The Fenians in Context and forthcoming work by M J Kelly, The Fenian Ideal and Irish Nationalism. The Fenians were associated with political violence in the sense that they were republican revolutionaries, to a considerable extent inspired by Mazzinian and other contemporary republican movements. The name refers to ancient, somewhat mythological Irish warriors. Some Fenians approved the term, others prefered to be known as members of the Irish Republican Brotherhood. The IRB survived into the 1920s and was behind the 1916 rising in Dublin, which is sometimes and not wholly inaccurately referred to as a Fenian rising. Although British troops in Northern Ireland and [yes, some] did turn the word into a form of abuse, next to no-one identified as Fenian during the NI troubles, except, perhaps, metaphorically. As a term of abuse it is sectarian, although the Fenians themselves were opposed to 'priests in politics', believing they should stick to spiritual realm, holding that Irish nationalism was a secular ideology that should appeal to patriotic Irishmen, Catholic and Protestant alike. European religious politics in the 1860s were pretty fraught, with the Papacy in a very vulnerable position, and it was difficult for a movement mainly comprised of lower class Irish Catholics to maintain these ideals. Strangely enough, Irish Catholics today sometimes call each other Fenians as a tease ('you old Fenian' or suchlike) if someone is expressing old-fashioned nationalist views[for what it's worth, I've heard this]. So, it's a word with a complex history that, to my knowledge, is specific to Ireland and the Irish abroad and has no wider historical/Catholic resonances.

"Our duty is to deAnglicanise Ireland, Gaelicise Ireland and Catholicise Ireland" J. O'Mahony Fenian Movement

[edit] Cleanup

This page has a bunch of information that's already at the Fenian Brotherhood article, and other places. Since we have a link to that article, and it's explained and organized much better there, I'm going to remove it from here. If anyone has a problem with that discuss it here soon. I'm also going to remove the accuracy tag. -R. fiend 21:18, 9 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Irish Culture and the Fenians

Here's a serious question: what was the general position of the Fenians with regard to Irish culture? I remember distinctly Michael Laffan telling us that the Fenians, at least in the early stages, had little time for any cultural revival. I was very surprised at his claim as like many, if not the vast majority, of Irish people I took the epithet 'Fenian' with an accepting smile. Cambridge-educated Laffan, for his part, has a personal hostility to the Irish language and other such things so that could have marred the accuracy of his comments (and he was certainly wrong when he claimed the term 'Irish' for the language only emerged in the late 19th century). Anybody have any more on this point?

[edit] POV

This page needs a major rewrite for NPOV. It reads like a pamphlet! --Guinnog 07:49, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that you should be the person who does it, you don't notice your own POV slipping into the article. Whilst the article was in a bad state, I do think that the argument should be put that Rangers fans do see a section of Celtic fans as being vocal supporters of terrorism, you removed all traces of this argument. Your changes that created this,
  • "Despite the derogatory use of the term, some Loyalists maintain it does not refer to Catholics in general. Their logic is that former non-Catholic Celtic players such as Paul Lambert have not been spared this label by their opponents."
are shocking. Firstly not only some loyalists would put forward the opinion that the word fenian is not directly correlated to being Roman Catholic. Secondly Their Logic is an attempt to be confrontational and to lead the neutral reader to believe that the proceeding argument is false. Thirdly why change someones religion? It is not outwith the imagination of any reader to realise that Catholic and Protestant are disjunct religions.
Then we have this change
  • " It is also claimed that Celtic supporters have used the term to deride Roman Catholics who play for Rangers, an example of this being when Celtic supporters sang to Chris Burke, 'Who's the fenian in the blue?'.[citation needed]"
You changed it from stating that it was Ironic that a definite use of the word fenian to mean Roman Catholic comes from Celtic fans when they abuse a Rangers player. You changed this to starting with "it is also claimed that", do you dislike this claim? As not only do you request a citation specifically for this point but you also change the reading of the article, casting doubt on whether Celtic fans would ever abuse someone like this. --Roy Biv ( talk • contribs ) 04:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup of talk page

This talk page is desperate need of cleanup! How difficult is it for people to follow proper formatting? That mass of text at the top of the page is incomprehensible because formatting was not followed and titles were not used to differentiate between sections. As I can, I will begin cleaning it up. Assistance would be appreciated. ---Charles 03:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Using films as sources

I have removed the following from the article:

“ Some staunch supporters of Irish republicanism label themselves as "fenians". An example of this can be seen in the 1997 film The Devil's Own with Brad Pitt and Harrison Ford, where Pitt's character labels him and his sidekick as a pair of fenian bastards, both characters are republican terrorists. ”

It is not acceptable to use Hollywood movies as the basis for statements in Wikipedia; people in films can be made to say anything, regardless of whether it is accurate. Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:No original research. Martin 14:52, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

In general, Roy Biv, please make sure that any future edits you make to this article are verifiable, and/or discuss them here first, before adding them. Otherwise it just makes work for others, who have to take it down again. Thanks. --Guinnog 16:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually disagree, I think if a film uses the word it reflects society. Whilst the film is obviously made up, I can't remember any uproar about the word fenian being used in this accepted context in the film. I therefore will add the original statement back in but say that it is still needing a quote. --Roy Biv ( talk • contribs ) 17:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously the makers of the film knew that the word fenian was used in this context. The official Sinn Fein bookstore at http://www.sinnfeinbookshop.com/ sells a mug with the slogan "Still an unrepentant fenian bastard" on it. Sinn Fein are supporters of Irish Republicanism, they know what the word means. --Roy Biv ( talk • contribs ) 18:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Whether you actually disagree or not, this is not a discussion forum, Hollywood films are not reliable sources, and there not being any uproar about its use in a film is not in any way evidence that your statement is in any way true. Please take :'Some staunch supporters of Irish republicanism label themselves as "fenians"' down yourself; as well as being untrue and offensive, it isn't even sourced. --Guinnog 18:05, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Please see the source about the bookshop that I have given, in my last talk entry. --Roy Biv ( talk • contribs ) 18:10, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

How is it offensive? Sinn Fein sell a mug that says on it "Still an unrepentant fenian bastard", I certainly would not drink my tea out of one, but I never thought Wikipedia was meant to be censored. --Roy Biv ( talk • contribs ) 18:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The existence of a mug in the Sinn Fein bookshop is not in question. Your addition to the article is. So, now, is your breach of WP:3RR. --Guinnog 18:32, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
The Unrepentant Fenian Bastards are a NY based Irish band (see The Road To McCarthy, Pete McCarthy, pg. 115); the use of the word Fenian in a jocular context does not prove that hardcore republicans use it to describe themselves. Adding a controversial statement that you know from the outset is completely unsourced, is just not cricket.
Try going to a Sinn Fein rally and calling someone a Fenian bastard, and see what happens. When you get out of the hospital, you can come and tell us all about it...;) (j/k!) Martin 19:54, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Introduce someone "this is my mate Liam he is a good fenian bastard like us. " Are you suggesting that comment would end you up in a local hospital? I some how doubt it. We all know that the word is used in this context.--WikiWiley 21:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I suggest you review Nigger as a fairly good article on an epithet. --Guinnog 21:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Why? I am discussing the word fenian. Or do you accept that the word fenian is used by members of the Irish republican community in a modern context? --WikiWiley 21:44, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Because it's a fairly good article on an epithet. "In the last 100 years it has also become a friendly and jocular term, used self referentially, among some black people. In such a context, it is often spelt "nigga," to mitigate offense." Suggest a rewrite along these lines and I'll be with you 100%. What do you think? --Guinnog 22:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


You see it is a difficult word, as I like you come from Scotland. I know that the majority of football supporters who use the word mean Irish republican. Some idiots however do not know the meaning of the word and for some reason use it to mean Catholic. Opponents of Protestants are all to quick to jump on this meaning and misunderstanding by a minority. I do not believe that the word fenian is comparable to the word nigger in any way. As both sides use the word in the same context, which is in its original meaning, Irish Republican, only one side has claimed with some success that its opponents use the word in a derogatory way meaning Catholic. --WikiWiley 22:16, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, in Northern Ireland, "fenian" is a very strong insult, and it is almost exclusively used as derogatory term for Catholics. I have removed the statement again. Provided it's properly sourced, I have no objection to what Guinnog is proposing above. I could find thousands of examples of black people using the word "nigger", so if Irish republicans do use "fenian" to describe themselves, it shouldn't be too hard to find a few.

As I see it, the alternative is, we reinsert it, put the {{Fact}} tag on it, and if nothing is forthcoming after a week or so, then we remove it from the article, and it stays out until someone finds some sources. Martin 22:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)


I don't dispute that it is a strong insult. The point I was making was that it is considered an sectarian insult to score political points. In Scotland, Celtic supporters sing songs glorifying the IRA and will happily call themselves fenians. They are not using the word in the context like black men use the word nigger, they mean they are fenians(Irish Republicans) whilst they may be Roman Catholics this is not the what they mean. It is not an ironic parody of an insult. I know many Catholics who would not call themselves fenians they know fine well the distinction, they would find this suggestion more offensive. I would admit that a small bunch of idiots do misuse the word wrongly to mean Roman Catholic, this however does give the Irish republican community many oppurtunities to point score. --WikiWiley 22:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
If that is the case, why are you adding this to the "Northern Ireland" section of the article? In NI, it is a highly offensive term on a par with calling someone a "nigger", and is a bigoted term used almost exclusively by the more unsavoury elements of the Protestant community. I don't think religious bigots put quite as much thought into their insults as you are crediting them with. A Catholic who called himself a "fenian" in anything other than a jocular fashion, would get some very strange looks. Regardless, it's in the article again, so it can either be sourced or removed. Problem solved either way. Martin 22:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, it has been on the article for almost two months now with no references forthcoming. I have removed the relevant sentence. Please do not add it again unless it is properly referenced. Martin 01:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strange reference

The reference given for the paragraph detailing how "Fenian" is not always used to denote Catholics (see here, about half way down, section titled "Scottish Sects appeal reveals equal opportunities for hatred"), is an opinion peace detailing how the acceptance of the "sectarian" term in Scottish football is "vapid moral relativism". Anyone have any idea why an opinion piece is being reference which asserted the opposite of what the article says? Or am I missing something? Martin 20:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, I've found a better reference. But this section is a mess. Can anyone make sense of:
“ It is maintained by many that it does not refer to Roman Catholics in general...Celtic supporters have also been reported as using the term to deride Roman Catholics ”

??? So, does it refer to Roman Catholics or doesn't it? Martin 23:22, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Does seem funny. I suggest deleting it for now? Unless anybody can make it make sense. --Guinnog 23:30, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure what Celtic fans mean when they sing this ditty. I however don't think it should be removed because Celtic fans who claim to be offended by the word when it is aimed at them by Rangers supporters, aim the word at a Rangers player to try to cause offence. It obviously adds an interesting dynamic to the word.--WikiWiley 00:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You misunderstand my objection. The passage I quoted above basically says "It is not always aimed at Catholics....it is also aimed at Catholics." Regardless of whether it is used for Catholics or not, the current version makes little sense. Martin 01:00, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Ah I see, maybe it should be reworded to state that many of the people who are most likely to use the insult do not consider it to be an insult against Catholics. Then state that the people who claim to be offended by it, use it themselves in its original context, but also use it as an insult in the context that they claim they find offensive. --WikiWiley 01:24, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for your attempt to clear this up WikiWiley, but I'm afraid I've had to revert your edit. Catholics most assuredly do find the term offensive, they don't merely "claim" to. It reads a bit like you are trying to justify sectarian bigotry, and present it in a more palatable light. I'm sure that this is not the case, however. You might find a little article I unearthed when doing some research interesting. Happy reading! Martin 02:11, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, it was an interesting article! I certainly was not trying to excuse religous bigotry. I am a Rangers fan, and I would admit that there are some people who use the word "fenian" who use it in the context of meaning Catholic. I am sure you would also accept that a large proportion of Celtic supporters feign offence, in order to score points against their rivals. This to me would be obvious in their use of the same word to attack a Catholic who plays for Rangers. Whilst I am sure Kenny Miller a former Rangers player who next season moves to Celtic, will get a torrent of abuse such as "traitor" etc. There is not a chance that the word "Hun" will be directed from the stands at Ibrox to Kenny Miller. Why? Because the word "Hun", is genuinely offensive to Rangers fans. --WikiWiley 02:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

WikiWiley, it's surely not a good idea to accuse people "of "feigning offence" in a contentious area like this. Your comments make it clear that you would not be feigning offence if you were called a hun, so please don't claim to speak for "a large proportion of Celtic fans", or try to act as an impartial arbiter of who is genuinely offended and who is merely pretending. If you think you can make a case that some Celtic fans have directed it at Chris Burke "to try to cause offence", but that at the same time "a large proportion of Celtic supporters feign offence", good luck finding some reputable sources.

Perhaps some Celtic fans feel able to use the term ironically, in the same way that the words 'nigger' and 'queer' have been reclaimed by black and gay people. Surely you can see there is a huge difference between some Celtic fans chanting "Who's the fenian in the blue?" and hordes of Rangers fans chanting "Dirty Fenian Bastards"? I assume you don't think black people are feigning offence at others' use of the word 'nigger' "in order to score points against their rivals".

Your admission that there are "some" people who use the word 'fenian' to mean Catholic makes your claim about feigning offence laughable - can you tell us why these people use the term in this way, if not to cause offence? And is that not religious bigotry? PhilLeotardo 13:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scotland section

The Scotland section is almost exclusively about football. Is that all the term "Fenian" relates to in Scotland? If you walked up to someone in Glasgow and called them a Fenian, would it be understood that you were calling them a Celtic supporter?

Should we just rename the section "Scottish football"?

Martin 14:46, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

No. It's not just about football. PhilLeotardo 13:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
If you know about the usage of the term in Scotland outside football, could you perhaps expand the section? If the term is used in other contexts, it should at least get a mention. Martin 00:23, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not just about football. A couple of years ago, the Scottish breach of the peace laws were changed to allow religious bigotry as an aggravating part of the charge. Of course, as there's no physical difference between Catholics and protestants, a lot of these offences will involve people wearing football colours/strips. Read this newspaper article: http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=382632004. Incidently, Martin, "if you walked up to someone in Glasgow and called them a Fenian", nomatter how quietly or nonaggressive, you'd be successfully prosecuted by this law. ML5 16:34, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] racehorse

shouldn't the horse bit be moved to its own page? --Mathnsci 20:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)