User talk:Felipeh

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Talk here.

Okay, I'll talk here! :)

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[edit] Hey, can I talk here

Felipeh, I wish to respond to your comments on my talk page about the supposed "modern invention" of the French nation and people as well as your comments on common genetics/physical features. I have done alot of athropolgical research (hence it is my specialization at university) and especially into the native European peoples. I will not say any more into the long history and origins of the ethnic French nation and their common genetic/physical anthropology until I know I can contact you here. I appreciate very much your discussion in English (as it takes time), but you underestimate my knowledge in the area of French history and anthropology. Epf 18:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] French nation

  • Although there were different lords and vassals of the French kings during the middle ages, Felipeh, you misunderstand my meaning of nation. There was indeed a nation among the ethnic French people and although differing regions had varied autonomy, the people and culture were very related. Nationlism did grow signifcantly in Europe in the 19th century but the peoples and cultures had existed as nations within Kingdoms/Empires since the early middle ages or longer. Most of the modern boundaries of France were incorporated into the Kingdom by the 16th century, however most of the lands of the langue d'oil peoples (the original ethnic French) had been unified into the Kingdom by the 13th century. The idea of a modern poltical union must not be confused with the idea of a national union of an ethnic group that overlaps political boundaries (see Basques, Frisians for modern examples). Epf
    • Well, I could say, that Occitania (or Gascogne, Guyenne, Languedoc, Provence, Auvergne, Limousin) was a nation, at least until French revolution. Former Langue d'Oïl speakers is about just half of today's french population. Felipeh | babla 20:14, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
    • Agree with that completely as Occitania even today has a minor independence movement. However, it is currently debated whether they constitute an entirely distinct ethnic group from the ethnic French (langue d'oil peoples) or are ethnic French with some distinct cultural and especially lingustic differences. In a physical anthropolgical sense they are quite similar to the other French but obviously have strong mediterranean elements (see links below physical/genetics discussion). Epf 20:37, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
      • I add that in France POV, nation has something to do with political union. And what defines a nation in details, that's a matter of subjective appreciation when there isn't political or linguistic unity and boundaries. We can see in french history than integration of different region was a lot of times a factor of instability, since there were many local rebellions which had somethnig to do with regional identities against Paris. If you think like you seems to that "indepedance movement" = "existence of nation", so there were many nations in France (in northern part to). Normandy cultural and "ethnic" specifity during Middle Ages and later has never been denied.
      • Culture of Occitania is near from French culture as it is near from Catalan culture or Lombard culture. That's the same for ethnicity. About difference of ethnicity into Gaul, that's only a matter of progressive graduation. There aren't definite and simple boudaries in that topic. That's the limit of the idea of ethnicity. Felipeh | babla 22:09, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
        • The fact remains that you can't deny the cultural and ethnic closeness or similarity of the native langue d'oil peoples. Again, just because the political union wasn't as stable (as was seen in all medieval kingdoms/empires) does not mean the people did not share a common identity and culture. The regions which were the homelands of the ethnic French indeed had common oil languages as well and had together the same Gallo-Roman and Frankish origins. Normandy did have a distinct regional identity as with the other French regions but still shared the bulk of its history, culture and especially language with the other native French. A comparison can be made with Italy and Germany where there are several regional differences but were all considered very similar peoples (if not the same people) culturally, lingustically and ethnically long before their respective unifications in the 19th century.

As for the langue d'oc peoples (Occitania), their culture is almost seen as a transition between French (langue d'oil) and Catalan although in terms of history/origins and ethnicity, they share a great deal with other ethnic French. Epf 18:23, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Common culture

I leave now because I spend a lot of time to write in english. I'll be back for this part soon. Bye. Felipeh | babla 22:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for discussing but there is not much you can argue with in terms of the common culture of ethnic French (regional differences exist with many European peoples) as elements of the French culture can date back to Gallo-Roman times and today it is reknowned around the world. User:Epf 19:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

  • I'll just take one exemple. During Middle Ages, it was still an evidence that roman influence was most important in south and german in north (without speaking languages). There was common law (oral) in north and roman law (written) in south. You need to know too, the strong cultural identities of Britanny and Occitania which are plainly considered as French parts where french people live. I could later talk about that. At modern times there was strong political and religious (catholic, huguenot, laic) differences. And don't forget that french cooking has one of the biggest variety of regional speciality. Felipeh | babla 20:29, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Good point and you are clearly right about the much greater Germanic (Frankish) influence in the north. The Roman/Latin influence was still in the north though in terms of culture and especially language but indeed it was much greater in the south. Germanic (Burgundian) influence however was not completely absent in the south. As for the Bretons, they consider themselves a separate people and although they are French citizens, they are obviously distinguished from the langue d'oil peoples. The same can be said about the langue d'oc peoples however their history, culture and ethnic origins are much more intertwined with the langue d'oil peoples compared to the Bretons (they only arrived in Brittany in the 6th/7th centuries AD from Cornwall in England after the Anglo-Saxon invasions). You are also correct in terms of modern religious differences, however, the native French population remained predominantly Catholic even to the present day(although the current trend is seeing many people moving away from both catholic and protestant churches). As with French cusine, as you say it has great regional difference but this can also be seen in Italian cooking. It also should be noted that I am separating Basque and Breton cuisine from that of langue d'oil and langue d'oc peoples. Epf 19:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:LanguesFrance.gif

Salut !

Excuse-moi, mais l'image Image:LanguesFrance.gif ne dispose pas d'informations suffisantes en l'état: il faudrait encore

  • Une mention d'où vient l'image (site web original)
  • Un explication de la raison pour laquelle la licence est telle que tu dis: mention sur le site web, autorisation obtenue de haute lutte par mail...

Je dois t'avertir qu'en l'état, cette image risque de se faire effacer. Si tu as des questions, n'hésite pas à me les poser, je serai heureux de donner un coup de main plus constructif que de récriminer et d'avertir de possibles conséquences funestes ! A+ ! Rama 12:00, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Adiu!

Ai vist que parlas occitan! Avem besonh d'ajuda e de contribucions per far avançar lo projècte en lenga d'òc... Ès benvengut se vols participar! :)

A lèu! [[1]]

Cedric31 21:11, 21/02/06 (UTC)