Talk:Felice Beato

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Featured article star Felice Beato is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
Main Page trophy This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on November 16, 2005.
October 22, 2005 Featured article candidate Promoted
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[edit] A message from the George Psalmanazar International Appreciation Society

George Psalmanazar Felice Beato is a featured article and a winner of the George Psalmanazar Prize in Forgotten Biography.

As there has been no book-length biography in English written on the subject since 1950, a grand bounty of $10.00 USD has been donated to the Wikimedia Foundation on the behalf of the authors. Please direct all inquiries to the board of the George Psalmanazar International Appreciation Society.

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[edit] Origins & identity

I came across two problems while writing this article. First, Beato is constantly listed as a British photographer...but he was born in Italy. I could not find any information about his early life, so I figure he probably moved to England early in his life. Secondly, no birth years or death years match up. I've seen 1830, 1825, and 1820 for birth years and 1906, 1907, and 1908 for death years. I have no clue which years are correct and so no dates were included in the article. — Aurora (Say hi!)[[]] 05:28, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)

I'll be adding many more details of Beato's life as well as links to possible articles on his brother, Antonio, and others. The existing "James Robertson" link needs to be corrected (not the right James Robertson).Pinkville 19:23, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It has been pretty well established that Beato and his brother Antonio were born on the Island of Corfu near Greece, which was then part of the British Empire to a British father (hence British citizenship) and an Italian mother. The family then moved and lived on the island of Malta. The brothers were later hired and taught photography by James Robertson, who married their sister. I have lots more details on his life but don't know how this system of editing articles exactly works, so I am posting this here. By the way, I don't think anyone knows the exact date of his death, but the most likely one is 1908. He died apparently in Burma. Photoarts 00:18, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The article describes Felice's origins in Corfu and consequent British citizenship, and the marriage of Robertson to Felice and Antonio's sister, but some of the bits of information you mention I have not come across in any research (I wrote and researched the vast majority of this article). Can you provide references for the following: Antonio being born in Corfu (and maybe a date), British father and Italian mother, family move to Malta, and exactly why you suspect he died in 1908? Of these items, the only one I have seen before is the possible death date of 1908, so I'm very intrigued by your post and your promise of "lots more details". Please post any references or other replies here, but if you'd like to discuss related issues more generally, you can post a message on my talk page. I look forward to futher discussion! Thanks. Pinkville 02:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Pinkville, but you must have done the revise/update to the page after I reviewed it. None of this data was on the page at the point that I reviewed it (in fact it was full of errors and pretty skimpy). You've done an admirable job pulling together this detailed data on Beato, and the article reads very well. I will try to get the research that you requested pulled together on some of your questions and either repost here or on your talk page. I'm just not sure when. Probably after my next nervous breakdown. By the way, his photos of the Sudan certainly have survived. I have even owned one myself.Photoarts 02:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
No worries, and thanks. I think what probably happened is that you came across the article during one of its vandalism phases, because most of the information I mentioned has been present in it since last November (since then there have been several updates to the article, which is otherwise generally the same). I do indeed hope to see your research sometime soon - and hopefully without any accompanying nervous breakdown! Ciao! Pinkville 02:53, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The 1825 date

An explanation is given of 1834 as a possible year of birth, but nothing is said about the candidature of 1825. Could something be added please? Honbicot 08:53, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

As much as it's possible (the sources give no details) I've explained the 1825 date. Pinkville 17:48, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] the Qingyi yuan and the Yuanmingyuan

About Beato's photos from China: at first I assumed that the photos were incorrectly identified. The famous destruction of 1860 was of the Yuanmingyuan and not the Qingyi Yuan (the 'old' summer palace, rather than the 'new'). However, the buildings in the photos look far too imposing and tall. That wouldn't fit with the Yuanmingyuan which seems to have been vast but also quite intimate in character. However, the text is still ambiguous since it seems to refer to the far more famous destruction of the far more important summer palace, the Yuanmingyuan. This compound of imperial palaces was looted by French troops on October 8 and 9, 1860, and burnt by the British, under Lord Elgin, on October 18 an 19.

I'm writing a book about this topic, but I've just started and I have a lot to learn. Check out the book's blog at: http://ringmar.net/europeanfury/

cheers

Beato photographed Yuanming Yuan - but only after the burning and only producing a few images at most. The photo of the "Belvedere of the God of Literature" and many others were most definitely taken at Qingyi Yuan, where he photographed before and after the burning. The Belvedere, pictured here, was rebuilt (one storey shorter) by order of Cixi in the 1880s and is still a feature of the rebuilt and restored Yihe Yuan to this day. Both complexes, Yuanming Yuan and Qingyi Yuan were devastated by the looting and burning which were carried out simultaneously in the two places (with, as you say, the looting beginning on the 8 and 9 October and the burning on the 18-19 October). Having studied literally hundreds of photographs by Beato and John Thomson (who visited the site in 1872) I can affirm that the destruction of Qingyi Yuan was as complete as that of Yuanming Yuan, which you correctly note was originally the more important (though not "far more" so) of the two complexes but which was not rebuilt. The confusion of the names of the two complexes (both being called "Summer Palace", both often being called "Yuanming Yuan") has not helped for an accurate understanding of what took place at each location, often encouraging people to think that only Yuanming Yuan/the Old Summer Palace was destroyed (e.g. see this remarkable blundering review [1] of Harris's exhibition/book, referring to the Old Summer Palace when Harris (and Beato) explicitly deal with the New Summer Palace!). It's worth noting that one of the reasons Yuanming Yuan was often highlighted by foreign visitors (before and after the destruction) was because of the many European-influenced structures there, built under the guidance of Jesuit architects.
The text isn't ambiguous - I don't make any reference at all to Yuanming Yuan. You are simply incorrect in stating that Qingyi Yuan was not also destroyed on 18-19 October 1860.
Feel free to make the distinction between the French actions at Qingyi Yuan and those of the British at the same place - but don't forget to provide a reference or cite one from those listed at the end of the article.
I'm familiar with Hevia's excellent work. You might want to check out David Harris's "Of Battle and Beauty : Felice Beato's Photographs of China" which is extremely well-researched and which provides the complete photographic record produced by Beato of the Anglo-French military expedition of the Second Opium War.
I've checked out your site and it looks like you're well on your way. I look forward to seeing your book! Pinkville 15:46, 5 March 2006 (UTC)


Hi there, I'm enjoying this. I'm learning, which is what it's all about. But surely the Yuanmingyuan was far more important than the Qingyiyuan, that's where the emperor lived after all -- rather than in the Forbidden City -- and that's where he collected all the amazing treasures. The Yuanmingyuan was only partially European-built, the far larger part was traditional Chinese garden with temples and pavillions and rockeries. I wonder whether the Qingyiyuan could have been considered as included in the Yuanmingyuan complex, and that this is the reason why it's destruction often is not listed as a separate incident. It took the British two days and 3000 men to burn the whole thing down after all and they covered a very wide area. Btw, I've posted some of my own photos from Qingyiyuan on my own site. Including special Chinese princesses.

all the best,

Erik

As David Harris puts it: "the British force... systematically burnt not only the Yuanmingyuan but a much wider area - approximately 64 square miles - that included Wanshoushan" (i.e. Qingyi Yuan). The two complexes were destroyed in the same operation.
Susan Naquin notes: "In the latter half of the nineteenth century, Westerners used "Yuanmingyuan" in a confused fashion to refer to all of the suburban villas" (i.e. Yuanming Yuan, Qingyi Yuan, Nan Yuan, Jingyi Yuan, etc.). (Beato, himself, titled his Qingyi Yuan photos "Yuen Ming Yuen"). Distinctions in name between the different complexes may not have been known - or were not considered important - to the Western commentators, but obviously were well known to the Chinese.
I imagine you know that the Xianfeng Emperor had, on 22 September, already fled Yuanming Yuan for the safety of his summer residence at Rehe. Qingyi Yuan seems to have been of particular importance to Empress Dowager Cixi, who, afterall, rebuilt it at vast expense (apparently "squandering" the budget earmarked for the navy). Once rebuilt, and renamed Yihe Yuan, the complex was again severly damaged during the Boxer Rebellion, when troops of the Eight Allied Armies ransacked the reconstructed buildings, pillaging and vandalising - even breaking off the many relief-sculpture images of Buddha carved into the walls of the Temple of the Sea of Wisdom (Zhihui Hai) at the top of Wanshoushan overlooking the rest of Yihe Yuan. Pinkville 20:57, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Hi again, thanks a lot for this. I've learnt stuff. Btw, I was reading Robert Swinhoe's account of the destruction today. It's probably the best in that he spoke Chinese and was very careful in his descriptions. I've ordered the Harris book on Beato. His photos are certainly first-class.

greetings from London, Erik

[edit] How I can add a new page??

can anybody tell me?? How I can add a new page?? Thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fadia ismael (talk • contribs) 16:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] An external link to a gallery

Hello, here is an external link to an interesting and rare gallery that i added but was deleted by a meta user.

  • F Beato: 150 photos from "Metadata Database of Japanese Old Photographs in Bakumatsu-Meiji Periods" (english version) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.90.44.39 (talk) 17:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Erve 17:18, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I deleted that link since it is already listed in the references ("Nagasaki University Library"). Thanks though. Pinkville 17:36, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Can we get temporary protection to deter chronic vandalism about anal intercourse? Freedomlinux 02:34, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Or at least a citation to support the notion that Beato liked it up the bum... :~) Pinkville 02:37, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ToC floating (or not)

On this edit: What's bad about having the ToC float? -- Hoary 06:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)