Talk:Federation

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Some countries exhibit characteristics of a federation, but are not. For example, Spain has a relationship resembling that of a federation with its autonomous communities; however, they are created by and exist at the suffrance of the central government, rather than being distinct entities that have chosen to join together. In this case, you've have to add Belgium to this list too... -195.144.90.50, Dec 2003

Under "Long form titles", the UAE is listed under "None" when it is pretty clear that it is a long form title. It is similar to Mexico, listed under "Others" - United Mexican States as compared with United Arab Emirates - Mexico, like Arabia, is the geographical location, while States, like Emirates, is the political subentity. I've edited the page

In addition, according to the first clause of Article 1 of the Malaysian constitution, it states (roughly translated), "The Federation shall be known, in Malay and in English, by the name Malaysia." It doesn't state "Federation of Malaysia" or "Persekutuan Malaysia". But since the article Malaysia uses "Persekutuan Malaysia", I'll shall keep it that way. --Rajan R 06:58, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Is Tanzania a federation?

Since Tanganyika and Zanzibar united to form Tanzania, only Zanzibar has been the only autonomous region - are the new regions really comparable to federal states? - Quiensabe

This is similar to France granting its territories autonomy, I think, and hardly counts. The Jade Knight 11:16, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nominal Federations

Someone keeps editing the Defunct list to call the two large communist federations "nominal federations". What is the point of this? Nominal federation would imply that the name of the state would indicate it was a federation. Whilst this would be true for Yugoslavia, The USSR's title simply states "Union", which implies it was a federation as much as the "United" in the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", the "United Republic of Tanzania" and the "United Arab Republic" would imply that these states were federations with a federal (rather than devolved) structure. Bias against the USSR and Yugoslavia or any other state isn't supposed to be allowed in these articles, so pronouncing these states as "nominal" federations, when by their constitutions and governmental structure they did display some federal features, will only confuse the issue of what is or is not a federation. Just as there are different types of monarchies, so are there are different types of republics, unitary states, theocracies, federations and confederations (which brings up the point that if the USSR and Yugoslavia are nominal federations, then the CSA isn't a federation at all by it's very name). Nobody says the UK is a "nominal monarchy", but everyone knows it is a constitutional monarchy. So, since the article itself acknowledges the blurriness of what exactly constitutes a federation, can we please not categorize certain states with vague, pointless labels.

Anonymous user,
Ok, strictly speaking "de jure" or something might have been better than "nominal". The definition of federation given in the article is not that vague. It states that a federation has self-governing regions with constitutionally entrenched status. Can you really say that the components of the USSR and SFR Yugoslavia were self-governing in any real sense? My understanding is that the USSR was a highly centralised state. But correct me if I'm wrong.
Iota 02:07, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You are correct thatthe definition of a federation is not vague, sorry. However the article does note the wide variation that one can have in federal states. The components of the USSR had their own local governments modelled along lines similar to that of the national government with Supreme Soviets of "place republic here" being the main legislative body of the republic. Also each republic (and each autonomous republic) sent a given number of deputies (and this was written into the constitution) to the Supreme Soviet of the USSR Whilst for much of the USSR's existence it would be hard to see the republics as self-governing at all, the fact that the Communist Party controlled everything from the national government right down through the local government and below, makes it more difficult to separate the structure of the state/USSR (which was federal) from the structure and tendencies of the Communist Party (which was towards being authoritarian and thus centralized). If either the Republican Party or the Democratic Party was the only legal party in the USA, then it would be a state with self-governing components, only that all of the components were governed by the same party with mostly the same ideals and tendencies. Also, all the Soviet republics showed just how self-governing they were by the late 1980s and 1990s when the various republic governments began declaring that their laws superceded those of the Union. Had it been truly centralized, then the Communist "Union" government in theory could have abolished the republics (although probably risking massive unrest if it did so) or the CPSU could have done away with republics at any one of the numerous times that it radically changed or amended or at times rewrote the Soviet Constitution, but it did not do so. It is certain that the USSR and SFR Yugoslavia were unusual federations, but federations can range from being loose (such as those defunct African ones like Mali) to strong (such as the USA).

You make good points. I've added a new subsection on the status of the Soviet Union and a footnote to qualify the inclusion of the USSR in the list of federations. I haven't done anything so far as SFR Yugoslavia is concerned because, on reflection, I don't think I know enough about it. Can you say if the situation in SFR Yugoslavia was much the same as in the Soviet Union? Iota 18:15, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)

SFR Yugoslavia was also unusual, however, I have read in Time magazine and other sources about the variance between the republics of SFR Yugoslavia (for example, apparently Serbia and Belgrade in particular, was at times more liberal than Slovenia). Also communist Yugoslavia had modelled it's constitution on that of the Soviet Union's and each constituent socialist republic had its own constitution, supreme court, parliament, president or premier and prime minister and president of the communist party. So in essence, I would say that, yes, communist Yugoslavia was much the same as the Soviet Union.

Anonymous user,

[edit] UK?

Is a kingdom. Does anyone outside of this article's authorship refer to it as a federation? Ojw 13:29, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No. Being a monarchy doesn't neccessarily disqualify it from being a federation (Canada and Australia for example), but regardless the UK is a classic unitary state. All subdivisions and devolved governments are within Parliament's control to create, amend, or abolish. Ddye 13:50, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Belgium

Belgium is listed as a unitary state but it refers to itself as a federation. This should be corrected

Patrick Fafard Canada

As far as I can gather it seems to be a federation so I've moved it to that list. But if anyone knows better please shout. Iota 00:04, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)


-Belgium used to be a unitary state, but they made a change-over to federacy in the last decades :)

[edit] Quebec's powers

An example of an asymmetric federation is Canada, where Quebec, and other provinces, are granted enhanced powers in certain matters related to language and culture.

The last time I looked Ottawa was taking extreme care not to give Quebec any powers different from the other provinces. Any suggestions as to what powers are being referred to here? GreatWhiteNortherner 00:23, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)

We retained Foreign Affairs until minister Pettigrew made a fuss about it (and some provinces, like PEI, have taken the option of opting out of varying provincial powers, while Quebec exerts its full range of consitutional powers with this addition). Snapdragonfly 09:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Germany

It appears to me that the German länder have some prominent characteristics of states within a federation, such as independence in financial management and economic policy — certainly the most independence of sub-national states in western Europe and yet they barely rate a mention. Grant65 (Talk) 04:53, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] United States

By the definition given in the first paragraph of the article, how do we call the U.S. a federation? The 'federal' government of the U.S. is largely its own animal, and it is that government that is sovereign. Each state is not sovereign. Am I wrong? -- D. F. Schmidt (talk) 06:09, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the states are sovereign. While the Federal government has developed pretty wide-ranging powers over time (with the states having little influence over federal legislation, unlike, say Germany), there are still areas of policy which the courts have ruled are reserved to the states, and more importantly, state boundaries cannot be altered without their consent and constitutional changes to give the federal government more power must be approved by 2/3 of state legislatures. Ddye 13:44, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
You are. The American states are technically supposed to be co-sovereign with the federal government. As the article states, the federal government is given jurisdiction in some areas. The rest are for the state governments. The Constitution was made before the UN definition of a state, which defined as sovereign country as an entity which could engage in all foreign affairs. Chiss Boy 13:38, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] European Union errors?

"Furthermore, member-states are separate, sovereign entities under international law and, currently at least, possess a de facto if not explicit de jure right of secession."

The right to leave the EU is an explicit, de jure if you like, privilege. Equally, the EU institutions have the ability to remove, or suspend the membership of a country. This happened in recent times when Austria was suspended due to comments made by a popular politician in Austria.

In fact, these two routes out of the EU are an important part of how EU legislation works. EU directives are designed, and member countries are under no obligation to implement European legislation, except that if they refuse for too long they may be invited to leave the club. It is not unlike being an employee of a company.

"Most of these non-federal characteristics will be abandoned if the proposed constitution is ratified."

This is false. There is, in fact, very little new material in the proposed EU constitution that is not simply a reorganised version of numerous existing treaties. The new material in the consitution doesn't erode member country sovereignty. Most of it pertains to Europe-wide power sharing in the new 25, soon 27 member EU. The jump from 15 to 25 required new power sharing, in particular reducing the influence of Britain, France and Germany.

The reasons for failure to ratify in France and the Netherlands were not a fear of loss of sovereignty and the immediate creation of a federal "superstate", but a number of concrete local problems which made the electorate want to embarrass and frustrate their governments, and, probably in many cases, a feeling that the EU isn't democratic enough. And probably many other reasons. But the constitution doesn't entail the creation of anything resembling a federation -- even if many of its writers would like to create one.

I will make edits based on my comments above after leaving some time for reaction here on the discussion page. Robertbyrne 05:15, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Trinidad & Tobago is not a federation

The Tobago House of Assembly is created by an Act of the National Parliament and may be abolished at will. Previously Tobago was a mere county .201.238.89.45 19:19, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Important countries

I'm always skeptical when an article tries to list important countries. The trouble being, such ideas are clearly highly POV and trying to develop an NPOV list is IMHO impossible. In any case, I have update the list to include Malaysia as I regard it to be important (but then I am partly Malaysian) but notice there are still a few missing which seem rather bizarre.

For example Mexico and Russia have larger populations and GDPs then Australia and I think most people even Australians would agree Russia has a bigger influence on world affairs. Okay whether Russia is a federation is disputed but should we exclude it or list as an important federation but mention it is disputed? Pakistan and a few others (including Malaysia that I added) have larger populations then Australia but smaller GDPs.

One way to solve this problem would be to just list all contempary federations in the introduction rather then important ones. I count 22 so this might be a bit unwieldy. A second would be to abitarily define a criteria to be listed as important.E.g. GDP of over US$300 billion and/or population of over 40 million. Alternative e.g. top 30 of either population or GDP. Of course such criteria, as said, are abitary and will be disputed. A third would be to just leave the list as is and let people add or remove as they wish until and unless an edit war comes up about the inclusion/exclusion of some country. Nil Einne 14:33, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

I am adding India to the list of important federations because India
  1. has one of the fastest growing economies.
  2. is a Major Power in South Asia.
  3. is a declared nuclear state.
  4. is a Major exporter of software and outsourcing services. --DIGIwarez 09:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
It is all of those things, but is it really a federation in the same sense in which (e.g.) Switzerland or Canada are federations? Aren't the Indian states basically the creation of the central government and therefore able to be abolished or totally rearranged by an act of the national parliament? That is not my understanding of a federal system, which suggests to me a constitutional arrangement in which the very existence of the states is guaranteed by the national constitution. Grant65 | Talk 12:22, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
You'll notice that the paragraph actually states "important federations" not "important countries". Australia, Canada, Germany, Switzerland and the United States are all key examples of specific types of federations. I'm not convinced that India is also such, and as Grant states above, whether India has true federalism is debatable.--cj | talk 14:04, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
If the intent of the short introductory list of "important federations" was to list key examples of specific types of federations (which I think is a very good idea), then I suggest we change the introduction back from "populous" to "important", but make it clear what is meant by saying "important examples of federations" or even "significant examples of federations". Thoughts?--thirty-seven 05:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I see that Cyberjunkie changed the introductory list along these lines. Looks good; thanks. --thirty-seven 05:54, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some removed text

Some argue that the Russian Federation is not a federation in the strictest sense. It consists of a number of autonomous republics, krays or oblasts which are usually called 'regions' or 'subjects of federation'. According to the Constitution of 1993, 'republics' have some symbolic superiority over oblasts and krays. Constitution calls them 'states', they have their own 'constitutions', 'presidents' and may choose official language; in turn, oblasts an krays have only 'ustavs'(charters) and 'governors' while their official language must be Russian. All the krays and oblasts, and some republics too (for example, Karelia and Mordovia), are populated mostly by Russians; the rest of republics (for example, Tatarstan and Dagestan) have non-Russian majority of population. So, non-Russian regions have a little more autonomy than Russian ones (though maybe on symbolic level only), and this inequality has roots in Russian Civil War of 1918-20 where most of ethnic minorities of former Russian Empire acted as allies of triumphant Bolsheviks while Russian nationalists supported White movement.

I've removed the text above. It's informative but was in a section on "Federations and other forms of state". Russia is only mentioned there as a discussion of whether or not it's a true federation. It's not appropriate to give general information about the Russian federal system (or about any other specific federation because there are too many). This information would be better added to Subdivisions of Russia. Iota 16:02, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Federalism

Why is the first occurrence of federalism in the 1st para in bold and unlinked, as though this is the article on federalism, rather than being an unbolded link to federalism? Nurg 00:24, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The full sentence reads: "The form of government or constitutional structure found in a federation is known as federalism." There seem to be two separate meanings of federalism, one is a "form of government or constitutional structure". That sense of federalism is covered by this article. The other is federalism as a political philosophy, as in liberalism, socialism, etc. That is the sense more or less currently covered by the federalism article, although that article is currently a bit of a mess and doesn't seem entirely sure of what it's supposed to be about (when I get time I'd like to begin working with others to sort that out). So the federalism article is currently linked as a main article from the "Federalism as a political philosophy" section in this article. But to bold link federalism in the sentence from the intro above would wrongly give the impression that it is a second article about entirely the same topic as this one. Iota 21:26, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More removed text

Some time ago I removed a few passages from the text and tried to give an explanation in the edit history. They've now been restored so, before I take them out again, I think I better give a full explanation of my reasoning here. If my reasoning is faulty then lets discuss the matter further. First of all is this:

The Kingdom of the Netherlands is made up of three constituents, namely, the Netherlands (in Europe), Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles. Aruba and the Netherlands Antilles are each represented in the cabinet council of the kingdom by a minister plenipotentiary.

This was added to a section called "Federations and other forms of state". The purpose of the section is to explain the difference between federal countries and other kinds of countries. So unitary states, confederations and empires are discussed. However there are also some examples that are difficult to categorise, including modern Russia, the USSR and the EU. For this reason these cases are each given a special section. "Federations and other forms of state" is not the place to include general information on various federations. In fact there are so many federations that I don't think it's appropriate to include general information about any individual federation unless to illustrate special point. But anyway there is no dispute (as far as I'm aware) as to whether or not the Netherlands is a federation so the place for this information is definitely not "Federations and other forms of state".

Some unitary states have devolved powers given to certain, or all, regions. For example, the United Kingdom has devolved limited power to four different regions (Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, and Greater London), creating representative bodies with varying degrees of devolved power. However, subject to certain exceptions, all power is vested in Parliament, which could abolish or alter the powers given to the devolved authorities. For instance, the Scottish Parliament was established by Parliament, and it can be changed or abolished by Parliament with or without the authority of the Scottish Parliament itself.
Substantial power is granted to the overseas territories and the crown dependencies of the United Kingdom, with varying degrees. Power in overseas territories is either held by appointed governors, or cabinets (headed by chief ministers or equivalence) designated by elected legislatures.
There are two territories of Denmark granted with home rule, which governments have substantial power to their own affairs. Constitutionally, the power vest in the special administrative regions of the People's Republic is granted from the Central People's Government, through decision by the National People's Congress. Special administrative regions are not constitutionally stated to be administrative divisions. It is also not stated that special administrative regions are incorporated territories. In practice, the present two sepcial admininistrative regions are inalienable part[s], as prescribed by the constitutional documents, the basic laws. They are granted with wide range of power, including entry to international organisations, international treaties, extradition, final adjudication, etc., except national defence and diplomatic relations. The rest of the state is unitary.

The passage above was added to "List of unitary states with devolution". The article already has a section on "unitary states" which is the right place for this kind of information. This section is just a list. Otherwise there'll be duplication. It seemed to me when I removed this passage that everything in it either duplicated information already in the "unitary states" section or gave general information about the structures found in individual states. The problem with this general information is that there are many, many unitary states with devolution so it is better just only to give specific examples when illustrating a specific point. After all this is an article about federalism, not devolution. However it's possible this large passage contains some information that might usefully be merged into the "unitary states" section.

Iota 21:04, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Myanmar & Madagascar

These were just added to the list of federations but I'm temporarily removing them. Can anyone confirm that these are actually federations, according to the definition used in the introduction to this article? It's just I can't find any mention of federalism in either of the two country articles. Iota 21:10, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Defunct Federations

I'd recommend changing the title of this to "Notable Defunct Federations" as you haven't listed all of them, I'd guess. If French West Africa is included, where is French Equatorial Africa, also a federation? --Eddylyons 20:02, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather be in favour of trying to include all of them we can find and add {{dynamic list}} for now... ;) —Nightstallion (?) 00:54, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

Iraq, Sudan, and Saint Kitts and Nevis are constitutionally defined as federal states. —Sesel 22:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Mh. References? Feel free to add them yourself, though if you prefer it if I do it, I'd like some proof first... ;) —Nightstallion (?) 09:31, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
I prefer not to mess around with tables, so I didn't add them myself.
  • Iraqi Constitution, Chapter I, Article I: "The Republic of Iraq is an independent, sovereign nation, and the system of rule in it is a democratic, federal, representative (parliamentary) republic." [1]
  • Sudanese Constitution, Part I, Article II: "Sudan is a federal republic, the supreme authority thereof is based on the federal system drawn by the Constitution as a national centre and States, and administered at the base by local government in accordance with the law, to ensure popular participation, consultation and mobilization, and to provide justice in the distribution of power and wealth." [2]
  • Kittitian Constitution, Chapter I, Article I, Section I: "The island of Saint Christopher (which is otherwise known as Saint Kitts) and the island of Nevis shall be a sovereign democratic federal state which may be styled Saint Christopher and Nevis or Saint Kitts and Nevis or the Federation of Saint Christopher and Nevis or the Federation of Saint Kitts and Nevis." [3] —Sesel 10:23, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Hope it's correct this way; I didn't really know what to put as subdivisions for SK&N, so I simply put both islands (which are likely the two subjects of the federation) and parishes. Ah well, Nevis will become independent in the next decade, anyway... ;) —Nightstallion (?) 22:09, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] States with devolution

I have removed the table of states with devolution to the apropriate page, namely devolution. It seems more logical to list them there than here. C mon 13:10, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Great Britain?

Isn't the UK of Great Britain a federation (England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland)? --HolyRomanEmperor 09:04, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

No. It is a unitary state with devolved entities.--cj | talk 16:30, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Brazilian municipalities

What about brazilian municipalities? The Constitution of 1988 includes municipalities as members of federation. There are 5.561 municipalities over all the country today. It's a unique three levelled model and I think the article must to mention about.

[edit] Where is Congo?

I thought the DRC was a federation since February 2006, am I wrong??

The new DRC constitution mentions neither federalism nor a unitary system. —Sesel 23:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
True, but is there a lot of unitary states that mentions their provinces at the top of their constitution?

[edit] Merge Federacy into this article?

There is currently an article titled Federacy which uses a rather specific definition of the word - it's an asymmetric federation, where the more autonomous parts have constitutionally-guaranteed autonomy. The term appears to have been defined that way by one particular political scientist, and is only used in the literature by people who cite his articles. The edit history of the article is full of discussions over whether some particular state meets the definition or not.

All in all, it appears that the concept of federacy is nothing more than a shorthand for a specific kind of federation, and that it would be better to merge the article into this one, so that comparisons between different sorts of federal arrangements may be more completely examined. I posted a merge tag over at Federacy, and only me and the original author of the article have made any comment in the talk page.

Could some of you take a look over there and tell me if it seems that a merge is worthwhile? Argyriou (talk) 02:07, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd keep them separate. One should not force similar terms to be synonyms. For example in another domain, Episcopalian is a form of Anglican faith, but they are different. Federacy is where there is an autonomy, making an inequality between the member states. Federation is, ideally, equal or fairly representative status. That's not the same. --Petercorless 11:41, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Keep separate - they are significantly distinct. I agree 100% with Petercorless' definition. Fanx 00:20, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Is venezuela a Federation in the year 2007?

Yes. —Sesel 17:57, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Hypothetical/suggested/fictional federations

I noticed that "Imperial Federation" was on the list as a defunct federation. It never actually got as far as becoming and actual federation, there was just an associated movement which attempted to create it. I would like to see a section on hypothetical/suggested federations, to include such a thing. The problem is that it would then be difficult to separate "serious" attempts from homourous ones, or even entirely fictitious ones, such as the Federation from Star Trek. Thoughts? samwaltz 14:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

One would expect for The Federation (Star Trek) to be mentioned here.Mátyás 13:24, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Could I list federations that are not independent countries on the list? --PaxEquilibrium 00:32, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

That's far too vague a question. How do you mean it? Like the National Wildlife Federation? The National Federation of Paralegal Associations? The American Federation of Teachers? (Feel free to run your own web search site:.org federation). samwaltz 00:35, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saint Kitts and Nevis

Saint Kitts and Nevis is on both the federation list and the unitary states list. /Lokal_Profil 01:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It is not a unitary state. It is a federation, as reflected in its official name, the "Federation of Saint Kitts and Nevis". —Sesel 02:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, saw that you removed it from the Unitary states list. Should Somalia be added to the Federation list since it is now removed from the unitary list? Or is it something different all together?
Also Angola, Belarus, Azerbaijan and Belize aren't on either list. /Lokal_Profil 11:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Somalia is a nominal federation (as I noted in the footnotes section of this article), but because of the lack of a government that controls most of its claimed territory, this is obviously not how it operates. Angola, Belarus, Azerbaijan, and Belize are all unitary states. —Sesel 18:45, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I've updated the list and the maps. Is it a similar case with West Sahara and the Palestinian Territory, officially unitary but in reality no control? /Lokal_Profil 20:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)