Talk:Federalism

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  • /Archive 1: Nov 2004 – Dec 2005 (mostly resolved talk of merge)

Contents

[edit] Federalism and the Anarchist Tradition

Why the heck is there no mention of anarchism and its advocacy of free federations at every level of social organization??

Mikhail Bakunin#Federalism, if this can be expanded into a whole article of Federalism in anarchist thought (or similar), go for it. Nagelfar 01:31, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bold assertions in European Federalism

The subheader on European Federalism could really use some work. It makes several rather bold and unsupported statements (Claiming that certain governments favour Federalism, and then going on to claim that the European Defence Organisation was the last attempt to create a Federal Europe... I do not feel qualified enough to make something better right now but it really needs work. I also find it hard to believe that there isn't another page in this entire wiki dealing with European Federalism in a more comprehensive way - Knootoss

[edit] The earliest source of federalism

"The earliest source of federalism is the Swiss constitution."? According to Swiss Federal Constitution, that document dates from 1848. My understanding was that 18th century North American ideas about federalism derived ultimately from Native American federations in the northeast. See Gayanashagowa. [[User:Charmii|Charmil 1:36, 29 January 2006 UTC

Actually, it's more likely that political federalism is derived from theological federalism (aka. covenant theology) and ecclesiastical federalism (especially presbyterian church governance).  IS Guðsþegn – UTCE – 18:59, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Federalism in Theology

This part of the introduction strikes me as "Federalism in Christian Theology". Surely there are other religious points of view about federalism as a whole, whether it is in terms of theology or politics directly. For example, the Baha'i Faith is a religion that has a political concept of federalism and outright calls for worldwide federated government as one of it's central themes. -- djKianoosh, 13 February 2006

  • Well, the difference is that it is theological federalism, not just federalism in Christian theology. It is federalism in a theological matter, not a call for political federalism from a religious body, as you're describing the Baha'i faith. It is not surprising that Christianity has a theological federalism, where others may not. It is largely a restatement of the covenantal soteriology of the Apostle Paul found in the New Testament, and recovered in the Reformation. If you know of another theological federalism, we can put it in that section, or if you want to talk about the call of the Baha'i that you describe, you can do so in the political federalism section (though I wonder how central a tenet it is to Baha'i).  IS Guðsþegn – UTCE – 23:23, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] comments about the constitution in relationship to federalism

"Under a federal system a Constitution is the supreme power from which the state is derived. An independent judiciary is necessary to treat as void every act which is inconsistent with the Constitution. Because of this, federalism is precluded by legalism. The Constitution must necessarily be "rigid" and "inexpansive". Its law must be either legally immutable, or else capable of being changed only by some authority above and beyond the ordinary legislative bodies. The difficulty of altering the constitution tends to produce conservative sentiment"

this paragaraph seems broad, unsubstantiated and contray to some of what i know. these are all trends in a federal system but they are not reqirments. Beckboyanch

Agreed. A cleaned-up version of this paragraph might be appropriate in an article discussing the US system of government, but not federalism in general. ThePedanticPrick 15:45, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Federalism vs. Imperialism

What's the difference? Hackwrench 19:15, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

You'll have to explain this question.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 22:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Federalism is the idea of a group or body of members that are bound together (latin: foedus, covenant) with a governing representative head.

Imperialism is the idea of a group or body of members that are bound together (latin: foedus, covenant) with a governing representative head.

What's the difference? Hackwrench 19:40, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

You must be kidding. Seriously, you must be trying to make some strange point by being sarcastic, or something. Imperialism is clearly NOT defined as you state it.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 23:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Neither Imperialism nor Federalism are clearly defined to any great degree of resolution. Under one concept under the umbrella of imperialism, Japan is the only imperialist country as it alone has an emperor. If I understand correctly the United Kingdom's Queen is also an Empress, but searching for Empress at United Kingdom...Elizabeth_II_of_the_United_Kingdom seems to indicate that while she is what might be considered a de facto Empress, Empress is not in any of her titles. Imperialism is a policy of extending control or authority over foreign entities. An entity is a body. That which controls is a governing representitive head. Hackwrench 19:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, "the idea of a group or body of members that are bound together with a governing representative head" IS a good definition of Federalism. I don't know the definition of Imperialism, but at least two things distinguish them: (1) empires are typically extroverted and wanting to expand, and (2) empires often use coersive forces or techniques (military, economic, etc.) to expand their boundaries.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 21:33, 16 March 2006 (UTC) ... Addendum: Also, although the basic definition of federalism is as stated, political federalism is typically expressed in the form of a federation that includes some amount of shared sovereignty between the federal government and the constutuent governments. The same is not typically said of an empire.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 21:41, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Federalism is a group of polities formed from within by their own respectively represented constituencies and in legal unison with similar separate governmental jurisdictions of diversified laws. An empire is formed from without & imposed upon separate territories divorced from the central originating one, and has uniform law across their vassalage. They are almost opposites, but not in any way mutually exclusive. The laws of an empire could be federalized, a federal republic could become an empire. etc. Nagelfar 01:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Genesis

I just removed some confusing text apparently equating birth with generation and being born again with "regeneration". Anyone want to clarify the concepts? I suspect that someone out there will readd them.Hackwrench 20:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Yep, I re-added them.  :-) They actually DO explain alot if you're looking at the Romans 5 and 1 Cor. 15 references. The passages refer to "all" in both cases, but can be a little nebulous to the new reader. The 1 Cor. 15 passage sets the boundaries, but when you're reading the Romans passage, you're forced into that interpretation as well. The parenthetical phrases do help clear it up. BTW, "regeneration" is a commonly used word for new birth in scholarly discourse. Uhh ... "generate" does equal "born", and "regenerate" does equal "reborn".    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 22:07, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Thew why is the first book of the Bible Genesis (the same prefix as generate) if generate simply means birth.
Again, you must be kidding. Just because the two words share a root word, and have related meanings, does NOT in anyway substantiate that they mean the same thing. The root "gen" does mean both words refer to beginnings. Genesis refers to the beginning or birth of creation (hence the name of the first biblical book that describes creation), and generate as a modifier/adjective (which is how I used it) refers to something that has been born, i.e. has begun life. However, given that it is an uncommon usage (though the context, especially the link, made it clear), I will think of something easier. Regenerate is much more common, especially in theological works.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 23:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

So Adam the nongenerate is the representative of the generate and Jesus the generate is the representative of the regenerate? Hackwrench 19:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

As you state it, you are technically correct, but it misses a couple of big points (and seems to try to make fun of the issue). First, it overlooks the point that both Adam and Christ are the only men to have been incarnated (and in Adam's case created) directly by God, as such to be patriarchs of their kind (yes "men" because Eve was also directly created; but not representative). Secondly, it overlooks the point that both Adam an Christ are fathers of a race of all people in union with them (in Adam's case everyone descended from him naturally, in Christ's case everyone "descended" from him spiritually).    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 21:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
But many people reading the article won't be aware of some or all of these concepts and details which are somewhat important when reading the paragraph for it to make sense. Also your use of incarnate is inconsistent with the Wikipedia entry as currently defined which reqires live birth, which as wikipedia defines it Adam did not have. Hackwrench 16:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I am working on a major overhaul of the article on Covenant Theology which should clear things up. You can see the work in progress at User:Guðsþegn/Covenant Theology. BTW "incarnate" is the usual word for Christ's coming to earthly life (see incarnation). The word in its theological (and primary) use means being made flesh (with or without birth), regardless of what the Wikipedia article says. Both Adam and Christ were incarnated; Adam was also created not born; Christ was also born not created.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 05:18, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Covenant Theology

Is theological federalsm an aspect of Covenant Theology or as the article currently says "a synonym for basic Covenant Theology" Hackwrench 16:56, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, federalism is a synonym for basic Covenant Theology. In many other languages (and often in English), including the original 17th century Dutch and German treatises, it is called federal theology or federalism. My revision in progress of the Covenant Theology article will make this more clear.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 05:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Federalism is not just a U.S. phenomenon

Federalism is not just a U.S. phenomenon, for that subject see Federalism (United States). A template on Christian Democracy (placed in the European federalism section; CD politicians were the foundation of federalism in Europe) was removed, and three (count 'em THREE) U.S. law templates have been added. I'm nuking one of them and adding the CD template again.    GUÐSÞEGN   – UTEX – 04:37, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

The current section on European federalism makes no mention of the connection between Christian Democracy and the subject. Consider adding some info on this if you want to keep that big template. - Randwicked Alex B 07:06, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split the article?

It's begging to be split, unless someone can prove that theological and political federalism are really two aspects of the same thing and that we'd lose a lot of continuity by making this a dab. --Smack (talk) 22:12, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Move all content on theological federalism to Federalism (theism), and retain this page for the federalism that everyone knows and loves - or has at least heard of :).--cj | talk 07:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I concur with cj. —Nightstallion (?) 14:23, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
The intro section on theological federalism says it is a synonym for covenant theology, so presumably all that is required is a dablink directed there. The federalism discussed at the end of the article seems to be the same as discussed in the rest of the article, only referring to church rather than state structures. JPD (talk) 16:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Not just that, but federalism has so many different aspects it should definitely be split so that the political form is quite clear and then from there it should be split into subheadings such as "Canadian Federalism" and "Federalism in the US. COnstitution.

  • I don't think we should split, as this paragraph is giving an example of political hierarchy within christian church. It makes no mention of religious belief or explanation of such structure. The title is however relevant, as this structure is based on the Subsidiarity principle, which is stated in the Catholic social teaching. So, it's still about a human hierarchy, organizing authority and decision process. --Napishtim (talk) 08:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] federation/federalism division

It may be an idea to divide the page down into the ideological aspects (federalism) and the structural or legal aspects (federation), as per P. King (1982), Federalism and Federation, Croom Helm: London. Although this may be too academic. --Mccreacr 05:16, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree, as a lot of the content here is about federation in practice rather than the philosophy/ideology. In fact there is already a Federation article, which is where such material belongs. Grant | Talk 03:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler quote misleading.

This line:

Adolf Hitler viewed federalism as an obstacle, and he wrote in Mein Kampf as follows: "National Socialism must claim the right to impose its principles on the whole German nation, without regard to what were hitherto the confines of federal states."

Is a bit misleading. As the word translated as "federal" is "bundes", wherein if you look at the link on this article page to the German wikipedia, the word is Föderalismus, the German word for Federalism as we use it here is "Föderative", "Bundes" meaning something more akin to a republic system (though often translated as 'federal' as in the federal level of government.) The Reichs-administration in Nazi Germany, partitioning power between gauleiters was very much a federalized type system, the "state-within-a-state" of the bicameral legal rights under SS jurisdiction also had federal characteristics. Nagelfar 01:10, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The Gau-system was not federal, the third Reich was totaly centralised to Hitler, the fact that there were regional entities doesn't make it a federal system

and Bund means in this case Federation (words can mean differnt things in different sitiuations) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.241.36 (talk) 10:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Different Types of Federalism

Rather that just providing example of Federalism, it may be helpful to include information about the different types of federalism, such as duel-federalism or marble-cake federalism. The differences between these type of federalism are significant enough to be included in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.48.220.8 (talk) 02:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proudhon

Shouldnt Proudhon be considered as one of the theorics of Federalism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.33.225.219 (talk) 03:00, 16 December 2007 (UTC)