Talk:Federal Reserve System/Archive 2

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

FED is for New World Order

http://www.relfe.com/plus_5_.html (I Want The Earth Plus 5%)

IS-LM

The IS-LM model wasn't developed by Keynes himself - I believe it was developed by Hicks and Hansen (the wikipedia article on IS-LM corroborates this)

federal funds rate

"The Federal Reserve Board affects the federal funds rate by using open market operations, which is the purchase and sale of Treasury securities. If it wants to inject money into the economy, then it buys bonds, which also lowers interest rates. If it wants to lower the money supply, it sells bonds, which raises interest rates."

It seems that this would not make sense to the average reader, and requires either a more thorough explanation of the mechanism, or a link to another wiki article such as basic bond mechanics, or treasury bonds?

Overall, pretty good article. I enjoy that the criticisms and alternate POV's are presented extensively.

Fed Speak

Fed speak - the way that Federal Reserve people speak and at the same time say little or nothing, may be funny but is actually quite a serious matter. Do please look at the links - they are real, none of this is made up. Also google "Fed speak" or "Fedspeak" and you'll see lots and lots of similar references. I know it is quite important for financial markets. It might also be important for people who are proud that they can get through Wikipedias's thick verbiage, but find they can't understand a thing the Fed says!

While many people will probably agree that Fed official statements are a bit dense, I think we can find a better way of saying so than "The jargon-laden fence-sitting opaque style of Fed communication is often called 'Fed speak.'" - Wikipedia is supposed to be on online encyclopedia, and I strongly doubt that Britannica would ever include such a sentence. Can I suggest, "Official Fed communications are written in a distinctive style, sometimes called 'Fedspeak', and is consistently criticized as being excessively vague, opaque, and non-committal."? I think this rephrasing preserves the original intent, while including a bit more formality. (GMCViolin 19 Jan 2oo6)
The original is very direct and says exactly what I meant to say. Why water it down? Consider the following from Mike Moskow President of the Chicago Federal Reserve: "When I joined the Chicago Fed, one of the first things I had to do was learn what is called “Fed Speak.” This is a language in which it is possible to speak, without ever saying anything. As you might expect, Chairman Greenspan is the master of Fed Speak. Here’s how he put it once when testifying to Congress: “Since becoming a central banker, I have learned to mumble with great incoherence. If I seem unduly clear to you, you must have misunderstood what I said.” this is at the graduation at the Kellogg School of Business

[1]

bank for international settlements

If I am not mistaken, the BIS is a banking institution that pre-dates the Bretton Woods financial system. In fact, the signed official UN monetary and financial conference report includes a resolution recommending the "immediate liquidation of the Bank for International Settlements at the earliest possible date" (National Archives, Record Group 56) If no one can prove otherwise I'm going to remove the nonsense about the BIS being a bretton woods institution.

Links for all and all (links) for Knowledge

Here's a huge list of links for info on many aspects of the FED. Some are consperisist webistes, some are not. Some are about the events that created the FED and some are about events the FED had major roles in.

http://minneapolisfed.org/info/policy/

http://minneapolisfed.org/info/sys/history/index.cfm

http://www.federalreserve.gov/kids/#created

http://www.thisnation.com/question/033.html

http://www.worldnewsstand.net/today/articles/fedprivatelyowned.htm

http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm

http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/Speeches/2004/200403262/default.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1095269452.php

http://www.ny.frb.org/research/epr/04v10n3/0412garb/0412garb.html

http://www.eh.net/encyclopedia/article/toma.reserve

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h952.html

http://www.dallasfed.org/fed/frshistory.html

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm

http://www.amatecon.com/gd/gdoverview.html

http://www.amatecon.com/gd/gdcandc.html

Of course, by the time most people start reading this, many links will have been edited out.

Added, a Implementation of Moneyary Policy section

See subject. Any comments? Mrmanhattanproject

Criticism splip

We need to split the Criticism section to another article because all the links that was here was removed. There is countless articles regarding evil aspects of fed, many of then are substantial ones. And every single link has been removed. This is riciculos, wikipedia now dont have the right of exposing substantials POV, just because is a criticism. So we should split it, because a lot of people believe what is contained there is true. What have been done isnt NPOV.

what is wrong with wikipedia?

This article is rediculous and at the very least the critism section in its current state should be removed. As others pointed out the propositions in this part of the article are totally biased. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.218.153.176 (talk • contribs) on 9 January 2007.

Big Brother watching?

It looks like someone recently censored this article brutally, major parts of the criticism text were erased, including the notion that Fed is actually privately owned and works for private profit, thus not federal in any way. Not to mention steeper theories, like Feds role with e.g. Rotschilds and Agnellis in creating a world economy on unlimited, but unbacked money for skyrocket profit for a select few. 195.70.32.136

The video on google video "Money Masters" documents and lays out the history of privatized central banks very well. I think everyone on the planet should see it. It is lengthy but broken> into three one hour parts. It documents the basic idea and rules behind the "Federal" "Reserve," of which it is neither, and many other central banks including the World Bank and the IMF. Also, I suggest reading "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins which is about how the international monetary system is used to subjugate third world countries' populations. Next, I suggest Alex Jones' movie "Terror Storm." This film is about how governments have traditionally used terror or false- flag opperations to control a multitude of things. Many other works have been made on similar themes and should also be considered. Putting these three works together paints a vivid picture of how the world is run. And it is not a comforting image.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.237.167.16 (talk • contribs) 01:40, 17 January 2007.

Forget Wikipedia. They're even worse than Mainstream Media.

Want to write some truth about....the Federal reserve? 9/11? Bin Laden? Alex Jones? Patriot Act? ANY controversial topic? FORGET IT! Within 2 minutes some STASI officer at Wikipedia will "correct you" right back again. "WE TOLERATE NO OUTRAGEOUS CONSPIRACY THEORIES". Got proof? Got documentation? Sorry, if it's not from CNN or similar "objective" sources it must be a "kooky conspiracy theory site" and therefore not good enough. For Wikipedia. You think Wikipedia belongs to YOU? To THE TRUTH? HA HA HA! Forget it. BJ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bjornyvan (talk • contribs) (on 3 March 2007).


Large amounts of serious and important Critisism left out or ignored

Federal Reserve Critics:These are just a tiny amount of quotes from important and serious critics of the Federal Reserve act

  • "Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders. The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States"
-- Sen. Barry Goldwater (Rep. AZ)
  • "The [Federal Reserve Act] as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency... I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency."
--Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., 1913
  • "The Federal Reserve bank buys government bonds without one penny..."
-- Congressman Wright Patman, Congressional Record, Sept 30, 1941
  • "I have never seen more Senators express discontent with their jobs....I think the major cause is that, deep down in our hearts, we have been accomplices in doing something terrible and unforgiveable to our wonderful country. Deep down in our heart, we know that we have given our children a legacy of bankruptcy. We have defrauded our country to get ourselves elected."
-- John Danforth (R-Mo)
  • "These 12 corporations together cover the whole country and monopolize and use for private gain every dollar of the public currency..."
--Mr. Crozier of Cincinnati, before the Senate Banking and Currency Committee - 1913
  • "This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President Wilson signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill."
-- Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913
  • "We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it".
--Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa)
(Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932)
  • "The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers
-- Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. Pa)


  • "The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That Board asministers the finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. The system is Private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money"
-- Charles A. Lindbergh Sr., 1923
  • "From now on, depressions will be scientifically created."
-- Congressman Charles A.Lindbergh Sr. , 1913
  • "Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions.They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers"
-- Congressional Record 12595-12603. Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932

Critics from the Federal Reserves own ranks:

  • "When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in out account to cover the check,but when the Federal Reserve writes a check there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money."
-- Putting it simply, Boston Federal Reserve Bank
  • "Neither paper currency nor deposits have value as commodities, intrinsically, a 'dollar' bill is just a piece of paper. Deposits are merely book entries."
-- Modern Money Mechanics Workbook,Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, 1975
  • "The Federal Reserve system pays the U.S. Treasury 020.60 per thousand notes --a little over 2 cents each-- without regard to the face value of the note. Federal Reserve Notes, incidently, are the only type of currency now produced for circulation. They are printed exclusively by the Treasury's Bureau of Engraving and Printing, and the $20.60 per thousand price reflects the Bureau's full cost of production. Federal Reserve Notes are printed in 01, 02, 05, 10, 20, 50, and 100 dollar denominations only; notes of 500, 1000, 5000, and 10,000 denominations were last printed in 1945."
--Donald J. Winn, Assistant to the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve system
  • "We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous;if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon."


--Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank


From General Law

  • "The entire taxing and monetary systems are hereby placed under the U.C.C. (Uniform

Commercial Code)"

-- The Federal Tax Lien Act of 1966
  • "There is a distinction between a 'debt discharged' and a debt 'paid'. When discharged, the debt still exists though divested of it's charter as a legal obligation during the operation of the discharge, something of the original vitality of the debt continues to exist, which may be transferred, even though the transferee takes it subject to it's disability incident to the discharge."
--Stanek vs. White,172 Minn.390, 215 N.W. 784
  • "The Federal Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities..."
-- Lewis vs. United States 9th Circuit 1992
  • "The regional Federal Reserve banks are not government agencies. ...but are independent,privately owned and locally controlled corporations."
-- Lewis vs. United States, 680 F. 2d 1239 9th Circuit 1982


Past Presidents, not including the Founding Fathers

  • "Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and

commerce."

-- James A. Garfield, President of the United States


  • "A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and

duress of small groups of dominant men."

--President Woodrow Wilson


Founding Father's Quotes on Central Banking

(Maybe some repeats from "Founding Father's Quotes" / Information tends to converge)

Thomas Jefferson

  • "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs."

--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President.


Andrew Jackson

  • "If Congress has the right [it doesn't] to issue paper money [currency], it was given to them to be

used by...[the government] and not to be delegated to individuals or corporations"

-- President Andrew Jackson, Vetoed Bank Bill of 1836


James Madison

  • "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance".
-- James Madison

Misc. Sources

  • "Banks lend by creating credit. They create the means of payment out of nothing"
-- Ralph M.Hawtrey, Secretary of the British Treasury


  • "To expose a 15 Trillion dollar ripoff of the American people by the stockholders of the 1000

largest corporations over the last 100 years will be a tall order of business."

-- Buckminster Fuller


  • "Every Congressman, every Senator knows precisely what causes inflation...but can't, [won't] support the drastic reforms to stop it [repeal of the Federal Reserve Act] because it could cost him

his job."

-- Robert A. Heinlein, Expanded Universe


  • "It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for

if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."

-- Henry Ford


  • "[Every circulating FRN] represents a one dollar debt to the Federal Reserve system."

-- Money Facts, House Banking and Currency Committee


  • "...the increase in the assets of the Federal Reserve banks from 143 million dollars in 1913 to 45 billion dollars in 1949 went directly to the private stockholders of the [federal reserve] banks."
-- Eustace Mullins


  • "As soon as Mr. Roosevelt took office, the Federal Reserve began to buy government securities at the rate of ten million dollars a week for 10 weeks, and created one hundred million dollars in new [checkbook] currency, which alleviated the critical famine of money and credit, and the factories started hiring people again."
-- Eustace Mullins


  • "Should government refrain from regulation (taxation), the worthlessness of the money becomes apparent and the fraud can no longer be concealed."
-- John Maynard Keynes, "Consequences of Peace."


  • "Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from

them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits".

-- SIR JOSIAH STAMP,(President of the Bank of England in the 1920's, the second richest man in Britain)


  • "The modern Banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banks can in fact inflate,mint and unmint the modern ledger-entry currency".
-- MAJOR L .L. B. ANGUS


  • "While boasting of our noble deeds were careful to conceal the ugly fact that by an iniquitous money system we have nationalized a system of oppression which, though more refined, is not less cruel than the old system of chattel slavery.
-- Horace Greeley


  • "People who will not turn a shovel full of dirt on the project (Muscle Shoals Dam)nor contribute a pound of material, will collect more money from the United States than will the People who supply all the material and do all the work. This is the terrible thing about interest ...But here is the point: If the Nation can issue a dollar bond it can issue a dollar bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good also. The difference between the bond and the bill is that the bond lets the money broker collect twice the amount of the bond and an addi- tional 20%. Whereas the currency, the honest sort provided by the Constitution pays nobody but those who contribute in some useful way. It is absurd to say our Country can issue bonds and cannot issue currency. Both are promises to pay, but one fattens the usurer and the other helps the People. If the currency issued by the People were no good, then the bonds would be no good, either. It is a terrible situation when the Government, to insure the National Wealth, must go in debt and submit to ruinous interest charges at the hands of men who control the fictitious value of gold. Interest is the invention of Satan".


-- THOMAS A. EDISON


  • "By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft."
-- John Maynard Keynes (the father of 'Keynesian Economics' which our nation now endures) in his book "THE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES OF THE PEACE" (1920).


  • "Capital must protect itself in every way...Debts must be collected and loans and mortgages

foreclosed as soon as possible. When through a process of law the common people have lost their homes, they will be more tractable and more easily governed by the strong arm of the law applied by the central power of leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their leaders. This is well known among our principal men now engaged in forming an imperialism of capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd."

--Taken from the Civil Servants' Year Book, "The Organizer" January 1934.
  • "The Federal Reserve banks, while not part of the government,..."
-- United States budget for 1991 and 1992 part 7, page 10
  • "The Money Power! It is the greatest power on earth; and it is arrayed against Labour. No other power that is or ever was can be named with it...it attacks us through the Press - a monster with a thousand lying tongues, a beast surpassing in foulness any conceived by the mythology that invented dragons, were wolves, harpies, ghouls and vampires.It thunders against us from innumerable platforms and pulpits. The mystic machinery of the churches it turns into an engine of wrath for our destruction. Yes, so far as we are concerned, the headquarters of the Money Power is Britain. But the Money Power is not a British institution; it is cosmopolitan. It is of no nationality, but of all nationalities. It dominates the world. The Money Power has corrupted the faculties of the human soul, and tampered with the sanity of the human intellect...

Editorial from 1907 edition of The Brisbane Worker (Australia)

  • ...I am convinced that the agreement [Bretton Woods] will enthrone a world dictatorship of private

finance more complete and terrible than and Hitlerite dream. It offers no solution of world problems, but quite blatantly sets up controls which will reduce the smaller nations to vassal states and make every government the mouthpiece and tool of International Finance. It will undermine and destroy the democratic institutions of this country - in fact as effectively as ever the Fascist forces could have done - pervert and paganise our Christian ideals; and will undoubtedly present a new menace, endangering world peace.World collaboration of private financial interests can only mean mass unemployment, slavery, misery,degredation and financial destruction. Therefore, as freedom loving Australians we should reject this infamous proposal. John Smith (nom de guerre) 21:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

-- Labor Minister of Australia, Eddie Ward, during the inception of the World Bank and Bretton Woods, he gave this warning. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by John Smith (nom de guerre) (talk • contribs) 21:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
Dear readers: This material was in large part included in a text dump earlier today by user "John Smith (nom de guerre)" at both the article and talk page for Federal Reserve Act. I reverted the dump in the article. Some of the material above is probably accurate (as quotations). Some of it is outright falsehood -- for example the fake "quotation" from the Federal Tax Lien Act of 1966. Some of it is just material taken out of context, as in the quotation from the infamous Lewis case (already covered in the article, if I'm not mistaken).
I don't know that there's a problem with adding a few additional critiques to the "critique" sections of articles, but enormous texts dumps with obviously misspelled words and obvious fake quotes are not appropriate. Yours, Famspear 21:48, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Um, excuse me but most of those quotes are accurate. No need to sweep your brush over the whole lot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.221.40.3 (talk) 13:43, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Centrist views

I understand why user "Famspear" deleted this one.

Exerpts from an article from FAIR non profit institute for Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting). www.fair.org

"There is a notion -- widely believed in the mainstream media -- that while there is propaganda of the left and propaganda of the right, there is no such thing as propaganda of the center. In this view, the center doesn't produce propaganda, it produces straight news. Mainstream journalists typically explain: "We don't tilt left, we don't tilt right. We're straight down the middle of the road. We're dead center."

When mainstream journalists tell me during debates that "our news doesn't reflect bias of the left or the right," I ask them if they therefore admit to reflecting bias of the center. Journalists react as if I've uttered an absurdity: "Bias of the center! What's that?"

It is a strange concept to many in the media. They can accept that conservatism or rightism is an ideology that carries with it certain values and opinions, beliefs about the past, goals for the future. They can accept that leftism carries with it values, opinions, beliefs. But being in the center -- being a centrist -- is somehow not having an ideology at all. Somehow centrism is not an "ism" carrying with it values, opinions and beliefs."

( Quoting these three paragraphs from a 30 paragraph article never constituted copyright violation I would assume ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.144.240.250 (talk • contribs) on 1 April 2007

What is your point?

I cannot understand at all the point that User John Smith (nom de guerre) and others try to make. The Federal Reserve system has been in existence since 1913 and has basicly done its job - our monetary system is stable and the nation is prosperous. Who cares how it is structured. "Stealing our money and making us slaves" ?? Where are these people coming from?? We live in the wealthiest nation on earth, have a higher standard of living than most of the world, the median household income is over $60,000 a year, 70% of the population owns their home, most families have multiple vehicles and endless consumer goods and a life of leisure when compared the the non-industrialized world. Yeah, we really need to stay up nights worrying about how the Fed operates. You must lead a miserable life...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.169.172.212 (talk • contribs) on 20 April 2007

It's because of this system that our Wars are so costly and deadly numbnuts. It is a credit pumping machine for money that doesn't really exist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.174.156.176 (talk • contribs) on 23 April 2007

Hi my friend is corrupting the site —Preceding unsigned comment added by Us1 (talk • contribs) on 24 April 2007

There's a few very important points you're "missing" here, to put it mildly, but it's obviously a complete waste of time and energy informing you of any meaningful facts or issues at this stage ... But hey, Just stick to your consumer goods. You'll be/do just fine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.149.5.6 (talk • contribs) on 9 May 2007.

More counter-criticisms?

The criticisms section of this article is fairly well covered, but I don't see much information, or links to information, which counters those criticisms. For the sake of balance, that'd be nice to see. Otherwise, it gives the impression that most of the criticisms are correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.75.235.33 (talk • contribs) on 4 May 2007.

The critisism section is "fairly well covered"??? How in the blue blazes do you defend that _peculiar_ asessment in any meaningful way?? It's at best a farce for christ's sake. it's laughable to the point of ridiculuous. The only person here acting as editor in chief is a person who cannot conduct a debate on issues, and I haven't seen any sane comments here in the six months I've been having it on my watchlist. One might ask where are the sane wikipedians? Where are the sane parts of the english speaking internet community? You do realise that this (the "input" you leave here)is documented for all the forseeable future and arguably the rest of human history? It doesn't bother you? Of course it doesn't. You really don't see the flaws and problems here at all. absolutely fantastic. absolutely fascinating. I guess it's just like the deterioration of usenet. oh well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.149.5.6 (talk • contribs) on 8 May 2007.

Zeitgeist the movie

I added a new section for Zeitgeist the movie, feel free to add more or remove some parts if they're not on topic enough.

...quasi-governmental/quasi-private...

hilarious! what the hell does that mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.69.161 (talk) 18:45, August 26, 2007 (UTC)

conspiracy theory

What's with the conspiracy theory in the oHistory section? It starts on March 22 with a single ip-address, and then blooms there after with a different ip-address.

Much of what is considered "conspiracy theory" is based in fact... do your homework.

Information about the system is parroted word for word from their official website. Is there really NO OTHER information ANYWHERE about it. Are bankers and economists singularily averse to participate in the Wikipedia? Eva Jlassi 16:48, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Dear Eva Jlassi: Actually, there is quite a bit of information in the article that does not come from "their official website" -- see the critique sections. Also, the various citations to the statutes do not come from "their official website" -- in fact, I think I may have added some of those citations myself. A good chunk of my time for several years was taken working as a member of a team of certified public accountants auditing a member bank in the Federal Reserve System, but I didn't consider myself to be a "banker" or an economist. It's a boring topic for me - I edit here mainly for technical legal accuracy and clarity, and to maintain Wikipedia concepts such as verifiability, neutral point of view, etc. By the way, how can you be sure that "bankers and economists" are averse to participating in Wikipedia? Can you be sure that some of them are not actually editing the article on the Federal Reserve System? Yours, Famspear 20:13, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Much of the lack of citation has to do with the sources being so biased. So instead of quote the biased source used, someone put a citation needed link. It seems like whole article is written by a goldbug right-wing libertarian. 24.107.179.83 15:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)


http://video.google.de/videoplay?docid=5355374476580235299&q=Freedom+To+Fascism.&total=1219&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.129.55.26 (talk) 11:37, 30 October 2007 (UTC)


"Government of the People, by the Banks, for the Banks." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.224.81.234 (talk) 10:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Federal Reserve Jewry

Is it not notable that a population that is 5% of the US population controls 100% of the seats of the BoG in the Fed? I simply want to make this statement: All current members of the Board of Governers are Jewish. This is notable and accurate and should be included. I will wait 24 hrs to add. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh (talk • contribs) 22:10, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree strongly that it's notable. First, as a technical matter, you have not cited your sources. Second it seems like a trivial fact. How does race/ancestry/religion relate to their being on the Board? All current members on the board of governors are male, and they all have dark hair[2]; is this notable as well? -FrankTobia (talk) 23:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but isn't it a preposterous assertion with no citation to any source? Please don't just assume its truth.Tom Cod (talk) 00:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh: Here is the language that you inserted in the article:
“All current members of the Board of Governors are of Jewish decent.” [sic; should be “descent”]
In your edit summary, you argue for inclusion of this material on the grounds that the material is “reevant [sic; should be “relevant”], notable, accurate”.
Now, you are arguing:
“Is it not notable that a population that is 5% of the US population controls 100% of the seats of the BoG in the Fed? I simply want to make this statement: All current members of the Board of Governers are Jewish.”
There are several problems with your material, and with your explanations.
First, assuming for the sake of argument that all the members of the Board are indeed of Jewish descent, you are implying either (A) that these members somehow constitute 5% of the U.S. population –a preposterous argument that I do not believe you are making, or (B) that the Jewish people in the United States constitute 5% of the total population and, that the Jewish people as a group somehow “control” the Federal Reserve Board merely because the members of the Board supposedly are of Jewish descent – also a preposterous argument.
Let’s forget about notability, relevancy, and accuracy for a moment, and concentrate on three very basic concepts in Wikipedia: Verifiability, Neutral Point of View, and No Original Research.
Your material violates all three of these precepts.
First, you offer no sourcing for the comment that all the members are of Jewish descent. This means that even if the statement happens to be true, it violates the Verifiability concept.
Second, your own explanation for your reason for wanting the material in Wikipedia betrays your motivation for inclusion: you are pushing your point of view that the Jewish people as a group control the Federal Reserve Board merely because the members of the Board are of Jewish descent. Wikipedia is not the place for you to be pushing your own personal beliefs about the Federal Reserve Board, about the Jewish people, or indeed about anything else.
Third, your material appears to be your own original research. Wikipedia editors are not allowed to use Wikipedia to publish their own data, even if the the material happens to be "true." Material in Wikipedia articles must be derived from research done by other people -- specifically (and this relates back to Verifiability) reliable, previously published third party sources, not from the personal views of Wikipedia editors.
Regardless of whether your material is “notable,” relevant, or “accurate,” your material fails all three of the basic Wikipedia concepts: Verifiability, Neutral Point of View, and No Original Research. Yours, Famspear (talk) 02:35, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


@ both of you fine Wikipedians. First, as a technical matter, can you tell me what proportion of purported facts are cited in this article? Do you have any issue with the majority of sentences that cite no reference -- for example, the sentence preceding my proposed edit that all Board of Governors were elected during president Bush's tenure? I will gladly cite sources when my sentence stands in the article, qualified by a "citation needed" hyperlink. I assure you that I have the information. But this point is obviously a red herring and/or some lame and lazy attempt to demonstrate your superior wikipedia skills, so let's move on to your non-technical argument.
That argument completely side-stepped my main point, technically. So listen one more time. I have the same question you do: "How does race/ancestry/religion relate to their being on the Board"? You seem to already know the answer: It obviously doesn't! But you know, technically, that is just an opinion. And a misguided/misleading one considering the fact I pointed out:
5% of the U.S. population is Jewish and 100% of the Board of Governor seats are occupied by Jewish people.
And uh, technically speaking, I overstated the Jewish population; it's estimated at 2% of the US population (I've got the facts, technically: [3]) -- but the point remains valid at 5%. If the executive branch randomly selected the 5 Board of Governor seats on the Fed, do you know the odds that they would all be occupied by Jewish people? Guess what? It's SIGNIFICANTLY lower than all 5 randomly being male or all 5 randomly having dark hair or even all 5 randomly being male AND having dark hair! ( .00000032% vs. 3.125% or 44.37% or 1.38% respectively -- randomly sampled assuming 2% Jewish, 50% male, 85% dark hair, 42.5% male and dark hair in US population -- semi-technically speaking).
Technically, though, (1)sex and (2)hair color and (3)Jewishness are 3 separate questions that should not be so easily conflated. I just wanted to make a point that Jewish identity would still be the most statistically anomalous common denominator (that you mentioned) among the current members of the Fed. I even bet you'd be pretty hard pressed to find any other common denominator (age range, height, weight, underwear preference, etc.) as statistically anomalous -- but this is somewhat beside the point. Any logical, intelligent, pattern-recognizing being should notice how disproportionately represented the Jewish population is in the Fed with its .00000032% chance of randomly occurring. This is precisely why this fact is notable.
But you do bring up a rather good point: other characteristics should be identified as well. However, you cannot genuinely argue that all of our human attributes are equally important, as you seemed to imply. Some attributes are obviously more important than others because of their infrequency (uniqueness) and prominence in our lives. Gender is certainly a very prominent personal attribute, but a far more common attribute than Jewish identity and thus less notable (see odds above). It, however, is still an influencing factor and should most certainly be mentioned. The only caveat is that it might be redundant considering all members have unequivocally masculine names -- Jewish identity is not so easily inferred. Thus the reason for the sentence.
But there are other notable characteristics. So let's look for a guideline on which to choose. Obviously your absurd implication that all human characteristics are equally important is, well, absurd -- so let's figure out some important ones. Let's try to do this technically. I know! let me look for an example on Wikipedia (which you seem to know very well... you know, technically speaking): Demographics of the Supreme Court of the United States. Yes, here we go. They seem to consider Ethnicity, Gender, Religion, Age, Geographic background, and Economic and educational background as notable catogories. Jewishness fits well in 2 of the places. Jewishness does seem to be notable to Wikipedia after all! Hair color, not so much, technically. So I propose a Demographics of the Federal Reserve of the United States article. Hope you can contribute something notable.--Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh (talk) 04:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh: We are discussing your material on Jewish people and the Federal Reserve System, not the rest of the material in the article. Even if nothing else in the article were sourced at all, that would not change the fact that your material must conform to Wikipedia rules. Although it may seem unfair, we do not have to justify the rest of the article.

Citing the rules on Verifiability, Neutral Point of View and No Original Research does not constitute raising a "red herring," and does not constitute a "lame" or "lazy" anything. And no one has mentioned anything about "Wikipedia skills" except you yourself.

No one has "side-stepped" your argument. I addressed your argument directly, and I demonstrated that you are pushing your own point of view about Jewish people and the Federal Reserve System. Pushing your own point of view in a Wikipedia article in this way violates the Wikipedia rule on Neutral Point of View.

And just to clarify a bit, I and other Wikipedia editors are under no obligation to avoid "completely side-stepping your main points" if we choose to do so. We are here to edit Wikipedia, not to answer your points to your satisfaction.

Your statement that you "just wanted to make a point that Jewish identity would still be the most statistically anomalous common denominator (that you mentioned) among the current members of the Fed" is illustrative of my earlier points. Wikipedia is not the proper place for you to try to make your point. Wikipedia is not the proper place to publish your theories or beliefs about Jewish people and the Federal Reserve System. There are plenty of avenues on the internet for that.

Please re-read your own comments, the comments of other editors, and the Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Yours, Famspear (talk) 05:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

@Famspear: Please reread my comment. You have already admitted to singling me out an being unfair by targeting the NPOV, objective fact that all members of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors are Jewish. Mentioning that all members of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors are Jewish is not "pushing [my] own point of view about Jewish people and the Federal Reserve System". That statement is absurd and I dare the Wikipedian Gods to encourage another one of you step up and try to make that absurd statement. You see, I have the benefit of referencing countless wikipedia articles in which the race and religion of prominent political figures is noted and is not considered "NPOV" and "pushing my own opinions". I am citing precedent. You interpretations are wrong, and there is a long list of Wikipedia precedent to support me.
Also, please quote me in context. You have dishonestly represented my comments -- so all those reading, please reread my comments. "The statement [I] 'just wanted to make a point that Jewish identity would still be the most statistically anomalous common denominator (that FrankTobia mentioned) among the current members of the Fed' referred not to my main point, but to the probability calculations I performed in the preceding paragraph . My main point is that my edit is NPOV, objective, accurate, easily source-able (published in U.S. press), and the same type of comment noted on literally thousands of other Wikipedia entries about prominent public figures. For example:Demographics of the Supreme Court of the United States.
And yes, I know you are free to side step any of the tough arguments to which you cannot competently respond. That just makes you look like a selective arguer with an agenda. I'm glad that you pointed that out -- and also the fact that you are unfairly targeting my edit. You are also incorrectly assessing my edit as non-NPOV, as I have already demonstrated. So I will continue to add the comment every 24 hours until I finish the Demographics of the Federal Reserve of the United States. Thank you. --Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh (talk) 05:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh, I am eager to see the source of your information. Specifically, do you have a reputable third-party source that makes the connection that all current members of the Board are Jewish, and that this is somehow relevant? Or have you researched on each member individually and drawn the connection yourself? I ask because of Wikipedia's policy against original research. If you can demonstrate that reputable third-party sources have made note of this information, and they demonstrate its notability, then I will support its inclusion in the article. -FrankTobia (talk) 06:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Dear Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh: No, no one has "singled you out" by "targeting" what you have labeled as "the NPOV, objective fact that all members of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors are Jewish." I and other editors have made many objections to all kinds of material removed from this article. All you have to do is read this talk page to see the comments that I and other editors have made over the years.
Regarding your bald assertion -- that your material "is NPOV, objective, accurate, easily source-able (published in U.S. press), and the same type of comment noted on literally thousands of other Wikipedia entries about prominent public figures" -- your merely making that statement neither makes it so, nor satisfies the Wikipedia rules on Verifiability, Neutral Point of View, and No Original Research.
NPOV - neutral point of view - refers to how material is presented in Wikipedia. The fact that a statement is true does not always mean that the information has been presented in a way that maintains a neutral point of view. I infer from your comments that you are trying to push into the Wikipedia article the "fact" that all members of the Board of Governors are of "Jewish descent" because you feel that Jewish people as a group exercise undue control over the Board. I would suggest that you stop arguing about whether the statement is true or not and concentrate on the more important point -- which is that providing the very reason you have given for wanting to include the statement has exposed your motivation. Regardless of whether it is "true" or not, you still need to deal with your motivation for editing the article and with the effect of your proposed language on the neutrality of the article.
Assuming that you eventually provide reliable sources that make your information verifiable and you eventually show that the information is someone else's work and not your own original research (as that term is used in Wikipedia), I believe your task will still not be complete. You will still need to come up with some alternative presentation that does not violate the rule requiring neutral point of view or any other Wikipedia rules. You will also, for example, have to persuade other editors that the "fact" you are pushing is notable.
The reason I am free to side step any of the so-called "tough arguments" to which you contend I cannot "competently respond" is that that you are in no position to demand that Wikipedia editors respond to your arguments. Parenthetically, I would add that you are in no position to make a determination as to whether I or other editors are "competent" to respond to your arguments.
You, as a newcomer to Wikipedia, do not unilaterally set the agenda for other editors here. You do not unilaterally shape the contours of the discourse. If you want to edit in Wikipedia, you must observe the rules, and you must respond to other editors. Wikipedia works on a principle of consensus.
Yes, I am indeed a "selective arguer" as you put it, and I do indeed have an agenda. For example, if you raise an irrelevant or tangential argument in support of your edit, I and other Wikipedia editors may well ignore your irrelevant or tangential argument and attempt to guide you back to the problem at hand. The "agenda" here is already set for you. The agenda consists of the Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I did not make those policies and guidelines, but I and other Wikipedia editors do try to observe and enforce them. Yours, Famspear (talk) 19:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Wanting to cite the demographics of the Fed BoG simply because there is such a discussion regarding the judges of the Supreme Court makes no sense. Demographics of the SC justices are appropriate due to their much broader impact on every aspect of the nation. For the governors, what would make much more sense would be to discuss their banking and business background and experience, knowledge of economics, etc. 71.214.93.114 (talk) 07:34, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


Unsourced material

For the umpteenth time, the Woodrow Wilson material has been added, along with some weasel worded "Many Scholars claim" material. I have moved the material to here for discussion:

Many Scholars claim that the Federal Reserve system is in direct conflict with the constitution of the United States. Article 1 section 8 of the Constitution says congress shall have the power to control the value of money. The Federal Reserve is a private bank with little to no oversight operating almost completely independently of the government.
"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

Yours, Famspear (talk) 19:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The Money Masters

I added a link to The Money Masters (conspiracy film) and also added some counterarguments to that article (see The Money Masters / Criticism). The article about the film was a bit lopsided. If any experts of The Fed want to review that section or add corrections or references, your contributions would be most welcome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekonomics geek (talk • contribs) 08:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Update: The Criticism section was deleted from The Money Masters. The deleter may have a point in that an encyclopedia should not outright criticize things. I could of course blog the criticism instead and cite it here, as seems to be Wikipedia's fashion, but it's not really my type of activity. From the point of view of someone who actually studied economics, the claims in the film are quite wrong, but the film is not notable enough to have received wide professional review elsewhere. It seems to have a cult-like following among some amateurs and conspiracy theorists though. Ekonomics geek (talk) 01:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Controversial Statement / NPOV

I object to the statement contained in the text, which reads: The early national banking system had two main weaknesses, an "inelastic" currency and a lack of liquidity. National bank currency was considered inelastic because it was based on the fluctuating value of U.S. Treasury bonds rather than the growing needs of the U.S. economy. It should be obvious that this is someone's point of view. I think the article should attribute this statement to someone rather than just making the statement as though it were universally accepted, which it isn't.190.41.106.156 (talk) 16:41, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I have added some citation tags. Famspear (talk) 17:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Federal Reserve Dividends

[4] writes: At the end of each year, Reserve Banks return to the U.S. Treasury all earnings in excess of expenses necessary for operations. I think this aspect of dividend payments is very important. I'm not a lawyer and reading legalese just isn't fun for me. But perhaps someone can fix this article if a direct citation of the law can be found? --Ekonomics geek (talk) 20:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It's also in the FAQ here under "How is the Federal Reserve Funded", to wit "The Federal Reserve's income is derived primarily from the interest on U.S. government securities that it trades through open market operations. Other sources of income are the interest on foreign currency investments held by the System; fees received for services provided to depository institutions, such as check clearing, funds transfers, and automated clearinghouse operations; and interest on loans to depository institutions (the rate on which is the so-called discount rate). After paying its expenses, the Federal Reserve turns the rest of its earnings over to the U.S. Treasury." I'm sure a direct legal citation would be better, but the Federal Reserve banks themselves are probably more authoritative than what's there now. Acerimusdux (talk) 08:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Archiving / auto-archiving?

Any objection to archiving some of this discussion? Using auto-archiving?--Gregalton (talk) 17:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Done. Counter at 150 days, totally arbitarily, Auto box too.--Gregalton (talk) 06:46, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Heh, that was a quick discussion. I wholeheartedly support: this page has needed auto-archiving for a long while IMHO. Thanks for being bold. -FrankTobia (talk) 14:14, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Private vs Independent

The first paragraph of the article mentions that the Fed is a private banking system, but wouldn't the term "independent" describe the system better? Dotter (talk) 02:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Both terms are good descriptions of The Fed; one doesn't supersede the other. It is private as opposed to public, it's privately owned, and not itself an arm of the US government. Independence refers to the ability of the government to exert control over The Fed (or any central bank). In fact, central bank independence is an interesting topic in its own right, and can probably be discussed as such. I'll try to add something about that in the near future: Frederic Mishkin has a pretty decent text book on money and banking that details the issue. -FrankTobia (talk) 02:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Privately owned by whom? As far as I know, there is not an individual or an organization that can legally claim ownership of the Federal Reserve. Dotter (talk) 15:17, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
The regional Federal Reserve banks are owned by those private banks in the Federal Reserve System. Each has to own some amount of stock in its regional bank as one of the criteria for being part of the system. The stock also has some restrictions on ownership and transfer and such things. By law it pays no more than 6% dividend. And I'm sure there's more to it than that, I'm just going from my memory here. -FrankTobia (talk) 23:44, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me for butting in here, but this is the exact wording from the article:

The Federal Reserve System (also the Federal Reserve; informally The Fed) is the central banking system of the United States. The Federal Reserve System, created in 1913, is a quasi-public, quasi-private banking system composed of (1) the presidentially-appointed Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System in Washington, D.C.; (2) the Federal Open Market Committee; (3) 12 regional Federal Reserve Banks located in major cities throughout the nation acting as fiscal agents for the U.S. Treasury, each with its own nine-member board of directors; (4) numerous private U.S. member banks, which subscribe to required amounts of non-transferable stock in their regional Federal Reserve Banks; and (5) various advisory councils.

Please read the bolded language again. There is no statement there that the Fed is a "private" banking system. To say that something is "private" (in the sense of "non-governmental) is to say that it is COMPLETELY non-governmental. That's not what the article says.

The article says the System is a "quasi-public, quasi-private banking system." By definition, something that is quasi-public, quasi-private" cannot be simply "private."

Secondly, we are talking here about the entire System. The entire System has some components which are government entities, and other parts which are "privately owned" (in the sense that any regular corporation is "privately owned" -- that is, not owned by the government).

Saying that the SYSTEM is "governmental" or "private" is essentially saying that the System is "all governmental" or "all private" - and that is not only incorrect, it's meaningless.

"The Fed" is not a BANK.

Chase is a bank. Wells Fargo is a bank. The Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas is a bank.

"The Fed" is the Federal Reserve System -- which has some components which are BANKS (and we can argue over which banks are "privately owned" and which are not) and other components which are NOT BANKS. For example, the Board of Governors is not a "bank." It's a government board. The Federal Open Market Committee is not a "bank" either.

The Federal Reserve Bank of Dallas is not "the Fed." It is PART of the Fed, though. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York is not "the Fed." It is part of the Fed, though.

"The Fed" is a central banking SYSTEM -- with both governmental and non-governmental components - AND with both "bank" and "non-bank" components. Famspear (talk) 19:34, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

It is possible to refer to "The Fed" colloquially to mean a number of different things. I wasn't being rigorous above when I said the Fed is privately owned. I'm almost certain that regional banks are privately owned, as I've described. Now that I look at what I've written, I'm undoubtedly wrong to imply that the Fed isn't at all public. Also, the Fed seems to think that the Federal Reserve System is a bank, namely the central bank of the United States.[5] But I'm starting to split hairs so I'll stop. -FrankTobia (talk) 23:55, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Someone edited the article after I started this topic. It used to say that the Fed is a private banking system. I would also like to add that Federal Reserve Stocks do not represent ownership; they represent membership. Dotter (talk) 09:40, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

It appears that the truth is more complicated than I had originally thought. The following is a quote out of Frederic Mishkin's text on "The Economics of Money, Banking, and Financial Markets", page 386:

"Each of the Federal Reserve banks is a quasi-public (part private, part government) institution owned by the private commercial banks in the district that are members of the Federal Reserve System. These member banks have purchased stock in their district Federal Reserve bank (a requirement of membership), and the dividends paid by that stock are limited by law to 6% annually."

So, in response to Dotter above, stock in a regional Fed bank represents both ownership and membership. -FrankTobia (talk) 17:28, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, I misread what you wrote earlier; I thought you were referring to the Fed as a system and not the regional Fed banks individually. Back on topic: the article has been improved by the usage of the phrase "quasi-public banking system" rather than "private banking system." Thanks to those who participated in this discussion. Dotter (talk) 21:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
It might be more accurate to say that it is an Independent agency of the United States Government, at least that would be true of the Board of Governors. As for the regional banks, it might be more accurate to say they are privately controlled. The members pay in 6% of their capital and surplus for the "stock," which they get paid a 6% dividend on, but beyond that it gives no claim on assets or profits. What it primarily gives them is voting rights in the election of 2/3 of the directors of the regional banks. Also, though they get a dividend on their "stock", they get no return on their required reserve deposits. Acerimusdux (talk) 08:46, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Part of the problem -- and it is a chronic problem that will probably never go away as long as people edit Wikipedia -- is that (as other editors have noted) the term "The Fed" has different meanings to different people. Some people use the term to mean the entire system. Other people use the term to mean ONLY the Board of Governors (a government agency). Some people use the term to mean one or more of the twelve Federal Reserve Banks. Maybe some people may use the term to refer to the member banks (which are different from the Federal Reserve Banks).

One reason that some people argue about whether the Fed is "private" or "government" is a hidden agenda: some people want to say (and this is an oversimplified summary) that "private" means "bad." Therefore, "If Fed is private, then Fed is bad."

For clarity, for precision in thinking, and for precision in the use of the English language, we should not refer to "The Fed" as being either "governmental" or "private."

For clarity, for precision in thinking, and for precision in the use of language, we probably should not even use the term "The Fed" without making clear whether we're using that term to refer to (A) The Board, or (B) the 12 Federal Reserve Banks, or (C) the member banks, or (D) the entire Federal Reserve System.

The article, as currently worded I believe, says "quasi-governmental, quasi-private." I think that is an accurate description, and much better than merely "governmental" or "private." This article is about "the Fed" in the sense of The Federal Reserve System -- the entire system.

In this sense, to argue, for example, that the Fed is "a private bank" is nonsense. It's like arguing that "the universe is a planet."

The universe contains planets. But it also contains stars, and asteroids, and black holes, and random dust, and lots of other stuff. The Federal Reserve System contains banks (including lots of private banks) and lots of other things. The fact that the Federal Reserve System contains private banks does not make the Federal Reserve System a private bank. The Federal Reserve System is not a private bank. In fact, it's not a bank, period.

The Federal Reserve System is a banking system, not "a bank." The Federal Reserve System contains government agencies (e.g., the Board of governors) AND privately owned banks (the member banks) AND privately owned (or at least, arguably privately owned) banks like the 12 Federal Reserve Banks AND the Federal Open Market Committee, and so on.

In summary, the debate about how to describe "The Fed" is in some sense a misguided debate, based in part on the imprecise use of language. Famspear (talk) 15:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "quasi" private. An institution is either private or it is not. "Non Profit" means they get to cover ALL operating expenses- including salaries. That's a pretty good deal for any business. "quasi public"? No such thing. People look to wikipedia for clarity, not "quasi" descriptions.Just-unsigned (talk) 16:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear Just-unsigned: No, a system that is partly governmental and partly private is obviously quasi-governmental and quasi-private. It has governmental components and private components, so the statement that it is "either private or it is not" is incorrect.
And "non-profit" does not mean that they get to cover all operating expenses. They may get to cover all operating expenses - but that's not the definition of the term "non-profit." Please re-read the talk page. Yours, Famspear (talk) 18:19, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

It is a compromise between government regulation and private enterprise

From what I've gathered about the federal reserve system so far, the system is the result of different ideas people had for solving the problem of bank panics. The system was formed because people thought government regulations were necessary to solve this problem while at the same time many people didn't want a completely government run banking system. I think this particular compromise is the result of the debate between unregulated free markets and government regulations that we americans haven't settled yet. I've heard from different sources that the federal reserve system is just that - a compromise between the 2 philosophies. The sources for this are probably available across the internet and I think it would be helpful to include information on the system as a compromise in the article. I think it's possible that the healthcare issue could end up being dealt with in the same way. We would end up with a part public, part private healthcare system. This healthcare analogy should help people to understand how something could be part public and part private.

This also leads to what the criticims of the system are. Based on knowledge that the system is a compromise, it should be easier to see why the libertarian philosophy always pops up when criticisms of the system are discussed. It's all about not liking government run programs. Bureaucracy, incompetence, etc. are usually cited. The current credit crisis helps out here because many people are saying that the federal reserve set the interest rates too low, which lead to the housing bubble. I think this could make a good case for government incompetence as a criticism of the system. ;)

I already have one source mentioning this, which is why I included it in the 'purpose' section. I copied what they said in the fed in plain english:

"to strike a balance between pivate interests of banks and the centralized responsibility of government"

Hope this info helps.Analoguni (talk) 00:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Independent within government

The "independent" part of the Fed exists so that it could be impartial in decision making. They say that it is "independent within government". This is so that it doesn't do things like print up more dollars every time congressmen ask for it when they don't want to tax their constituency.Analoguni (talk) 01:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

what is going on?

speaking as a layman who wants to understand how the fed influences the economy by reducing "interest rates". this article is totally obtuse.

If someone who understood this could try to dumb it down (put jargon in context so that we understand what it means) that would be awesome. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.61.94.76 (talk) 02:16, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I recently read a US Treasury stat that said 60 to 70% of Federal Reserve notes go overseas. I came to this article to find out how the Federal Reserve decides how much money to print for use overseas and found nothing. Did I miss it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.62.23.202 (talk) 20:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Question?

How many times has the fed lowered rates between meetings and when was the first time? I have researched this question and come up with nothing. Is anyone able to lead me to a web site with this information? Thanks. 71.39.251.153 (talk) 20:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I have seen a website that listed all the interest rate changes throughout history, but the site I cannot remember at this time. 97.100.138.223 (talk) 22:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

There is a link to the effective and target federal funds rates and history thereof from the New York Fed in the Federal funds rate article's external links; although, this only goes back to 1971. The article also shows a graph of data taken from the Fed.--EGeek (talk) 06:17, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Documentary

Why is there no listing for the documentary of the FED : The Money Masters, Or at least any talk of it on here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.77.60.237 (talk) 12:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

That article was deleted, see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Money Masters. -FrankTobia (talk) 20:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)