Talk:Federal Reserve Act
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[edit] March 2007 Major Edit
I basically rewrote the Federal Reserve Act article so that its history would reflect information from original sources and briefly explain the various sections included in the Act. Rickmckinney 12:56, 21 March 2007
[edit] Woodrow Wilson Quote
I removed this section, as it was not sourced:
- President Wilson later came to regret signing the bill: "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."
Searching around the 'net, it seems that this is one of those "everyone repeats the quote, but no one seems to know the original source" phenomenons. If anyone can actually find the primary source for this quote (and it is indeed Woodrow Wilson) then by all means put it back in. PenguiN42 18:40, Jan 24, 2005 (UTC)
It's possible that the source for the quote can be found here: Quoted in “National Economy and the Banking System," Senate Documents Co. 3, No. 23, 76th Congress, 1st session, 1939. I found the article referencing it [[1]]. It would be nice if somebody with the ability to actually look this up could do so. I can't travel to the National Archives in D.C. to do so myself, but If somebody could assure me that there are copies of all Congressional documents at a local university, I would be willing to try there. Umeboshi 23:48, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
"A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."
- The above quote is indeed true. It is published in "The New Freedom" in 1913. The quote "I am a most unhappy man, I have unwittingly ruined my country" is added on commonly, but there is no source for it. Apparantly Wilson made this statement shortly before his death after his presidency, but there seems to be no hard source for it. However the rest of the quote is true.
[edit] Committee Name
What was the name of the committee placed in charge of investigating the control of the U.S. economy by influential bankers? This is mentioned in the article, but the name of the committee is not. mdjkarazim 2005-07-03 02:29:23 (UTC)
[edit] Reversion of various edits on 21 April 2006
On 21 April 2006 I reverted an edit by a user at IP 156.63.113.54 containing several apparent coding errors that seemed to make no sense. There was a substantive edit included in the changes made by the user at IP 156.63.113.54, so if he or she may wish to try again. Yours, Famspear 18:42, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Adding quotes and citation tag
I have added some quotes from the Constitution. Also, the article as currently written stated that the constitutionality had been the subject of controversy, but the article on Nondelegation doctrine -- to which a link was provided as support -- offered no information on any controversy about the Federal Reserve Act or the Federal Reserve System. Therefore, I added a "needs citation" tag. I suspect we can find some sourcing on this. Stay tuned. Yours, Famspear 21:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ratified by the States??
Dear fellow editors: I have removed the following text:
The Federal Reserve Act was not ratified by the States in 1914 as the Constitution of the United States requires. It therefore operates in a manner of taxation without representation and is unconstitutional. Citizens do not get a vote nor do citizens get to vote by way of Congress on whether or not the FED raises or lowers interest rates.
First of all, the statement that the "Federal Reserve Act was not ratified by the States in 1914 as the Constitution of the United States requires" is nonsensical from a legal standpoint. The Federal Reserve Act is a statute, an Act of Congress. The Constitution does not require that statutes (Acts of Congress) be "ratified by the States."
The statement that the Act "therefore operates in a manner of taxation without representation and is unconstitutional" is also nonsensical, non-neutral POV. Whether a statute is unconstitutional is a legal issue, to be decided in a court of law. Obviously, the editor who inserted this material provided no supporting citation for it; the material is not only false, it is unverifiable for purposes of Wikipedia.
It is correct to say that "[c]itizens do not get a vote nor do citizens get to vote by way of Congress on whether or not the FED raises or lowers interest rates." Citizens do not get to vote on lots of things. So what?
Let's keep in mind some basic stuff: verifiability, non-neutral point of view, and no original research. Yours, Famspear 14:03, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
- I believe the person who made that statement was confusing the federal reserve act with an element of the 16th amendment regarding income tax, which the supreme court at the time had ruled unconstitutional. I've been hearing about this a lot lately. Taxation of the american people's labor however is not a function of the federal reserve act or the federal reserve banks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.152.212.4 (talk) 09:56, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Critique
Another editor has begun a new section on "controversy" which I have renamed "critique." Some of this looks like the same kind of material that has bounced in and out of the article on the Federal Reserve System from time to time. I toned down the POV and removed some of the material for which no sourcing was provided, or for which the sourcing was highly dubious.
By the way, material on actual litigation (if any) of the issue of the constitutionality of the Federal Reserve Act could fit in the Critique section. Does anyone have any information on whether there have been any court decisions regarding the constitutionality of the Act? Yours, Famspear 02:24, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Quotation allegedly from Woodrow Wilson
One editor inserted the following quote:
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- 'And we have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men.' - President Woodrow Wilson
Another editor removed the quote, with the notation that the quote comes from a book published in the year 1913. The Act became law in December of 1913, around Christmas. I agree with the removing editor -- it's unlikely that this quotation was a specific reference to the Federal Reserve Act, as the quote probably preceded the Act. Indeed, if the book was published in 1913, the quote could actually have been uttered in a prior year. We would need some more specific proof that the quotation specifically relates to the Federal Reserve Act. Even if the article were to include the quote and properly include a full citation, Wikipedia should not leave the impression that the quote is a reference to the Federal Reserve Act unless there is much better sourcing. The significance of proper sourcing -- and making sure that quotations are shown in proper context -- is illustrated by remembering that President Woodrow Wilson himself signed the Act into law. Now, presidents do sometimes sign bills that they don't completely like, but if someone has specific evidence that Wilson thought the Act was a bad idea, then that someone should be able to come up with that evidence. Yours, Famspear 22:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
If someone could provide a name for this book then I will take a look, also while taking a look at the "Senate Papers" from editor umeboshi (from an above article). Apologies given if I am going about this wrong, I am a researcher not a writer. Baron Ubervonmarh (talk) 06:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Federal Reserve quotes
The Rothschilds
"The few who understand the system, will either be so interested from it's profits or so dependant on it's favors, that there will be no opposition from that class." -- Rothschild Brothers of London, 1863
"Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" -- Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild
Quotes from Senators & Congressmen
"Most Americans have no real understanding of the operation of the international money lenders.
The accounts of the Federal Reserve System have never been audited. It operates outside the
control of Congress and manipulates the credit of the United States"
-- Sen. Barry Goldwater (Rep. AZ)
"This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized.... the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." -- Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913
"From now on, depressions will be scientifically created."
-- Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr. , 1913
"The financial system has been turned over to the Federal Reserve Board. That Board asministers the finance system by authority of a purely profiteering group. The system is Private, conducted for the sole purpose of obtaining the greatest possible profits from the use of other people's money" -- Charles A. Lindbergh Sr., 1923
"The Federal Reserve bank buys government bonds without one penny..." -- Congressman Wright Patman, Congressional Record, Sept 30, 1941
"We have, in this country, one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board. This evil institution has impoverished the people of the United States and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it". -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden in 1932 (Rep. Pa)
"The Federal Reserve banks are one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever seen. There is not a man within the sound of my voice who does not know that this nation is run by the International bankers -- Congressman Louis T. McFadden (Rep. Pa)
"Some people think the Federal Reserve Banks are the United States government's institutions. They are not government institutions. They are private credit monopolies which prey upon the people of the United States for the benefit of themselves and their foreign swindlers" -- Congressional Record 12595-12603 -- Louis T. McFadden, Chairman of the Committee on Banking and Currency (12 years) June 10, 1932
"I have never seen more Senators express discontent with their jobs....I think the major cause is that, deep down in our hearts, we have been accomplices in doing something terrible and unforgiveable to our wonderful country. Deep down in our heart, we know that we have given our children a legacy of bankruptcy. We have defrauded our country to get ourselves elected." -- John Danforth (R-Mo)
"These 12 corporations together cover the whole country and monopolize and use for private gain every dollar of the public currency..." -- Mr. Crozier of Cincinnati, before Senate Banking and Currency Committee - 1913
"The [Federal Reserve Act] as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency... I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency." -- Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., 1913
From the Federal Reserves Own Admissions
"When you or I write a check there must be sufficient funds in out account to cover the check, but when the Federal Reserve writes a check there is no bank deposit on which that check is drawn. When the Federal Reserve writes a check, it is creating money." ( "Putting it simply" -- Boston Federal Reserve Bank )
"Neither paper currency nor deposits have value as commodities, intrinsically, a 'dollar' bill is just a piece of paper. Deposits are merely book entries." -- Modern Money Mechanics Workbook, Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago, 1975
"The Federal Reserve system pays the U.S. Treasury 020.60 per thousand notes --a little over 2 cents each-- without regard to the face value of the note. Federal Reserve Notes, incidently, are the only type of currency now produced for circulation. They are printed exclusively by the Treasury's Bureau of Engraving and Printing, and the $20.60 per thousand price reflects the Bureau's full cost of production. Federal Reserve Notes are printed in 01, 02, 05, 10, 20, 50, and 100 dollar denominations only; notes of 500, 1000, 5000, and 10,000 denominations were last printed in 1945." -- Donald J. Winn, Assistant to the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve system
"We are completely dependant on the commercial banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system.... It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied very soon." --Robert H. Hamphill, Atlanta Federal Reserve Bank
From General Law "The entire taxing and monetary systems are hereby placed under the U.C.C. (Uniform Commercial Code)" -- The Federal Tax Lien Act of 1966
"There is a distinction between a 'debt discharged' and a debt 'paid'. When discharged, the debt still exists though divested of it's charter as a legal obligation during the operation of the discharge, something of the original vitality of the debt continues to exist, which may be transferred, even though the transferee takes it subject to it's disability incident to the discharge." --Stanek vs. White, 172 Minn.390, 215 N.W. 784
"The Federal Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities..." -- Lewis vs. United States 9th Circuit 1992
"The regional Federal Reserve banks are not government agencies. ...but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations." -- Lewis vs. United States, 680 F. 2d 1239 9th Circuit 1982
Past Presidents, not including the Founding Fathers
"Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." -- James A. Garfield, President of the United States
"A great industrial nation is controlled by it's system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated governments in the world--no longer a government of free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and duress of small groups of dominant men." --President Woodrow Wilson
Founding Father's Quotes on Banking (May occur some repeats from "Founding Father's Quotes" / Information tends to converge)
Thomas Jefferson
"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.
Already they have raised up a monied aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The
issuing power (of money) should be taken away from the banks and restored to the people to
whom it properly belongs."--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President.
Andrew Jackson
"If Congress has the right [it doesn't] to issue paper money [currency], it was given to them to be used by...[the government] and not to be delegated to individuals or corporations" -- President Andrew Jackson, Vetoed Bank Bill of 1836
James Madison
"History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance". -- James Madison
Misc. Sources
"Banks lend by creating credit. They create the means of payment out of nothing" -- Ralph M. Hawtrey, Secretary of the British Treasury
"To expose a 15 Trillion dollar ripoff of the American people by the stockholders of the 1000
largest corporations over the last 100 years will be a tall order of business." -- Buckminster Fuller
"Every Congressman, every Senator knows precisely what causes inflation...but can't, [won't]
support the drastic reforms to stop it [repeal of the Federal Reserve Act] because it could cost him his job." -- Robert A. Heinlein, Expanded Universe
"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for
if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford
"[Every circulating FRN] represents a one dollar debt to the Federal Reserve system." -- Money
Facts, House Banking and Currency Committee
"...the increase in the assets of the Federal Reserve banks from 143 million dollars in 1913 to 45 billion dollars in 1949 went directly to the private stockholders of the [federal reserve] banks." -- Eustace Mullins
"As soon as Mr. Roosevelt took office, the Federal Reserve began to buy government securities
at the rate of ten million dollars a week for 10 weeks, and created one hundred million dollars
in new[checkbook] currency, which alleviated the critical famine of money and credit, and the
factories started hiring people again." -- Eustace Mullins
"Should government refrain from regulation (taxation), the worthlessness of the money becomes
apparent and the fraud can no longer be concealed."
-- John Maynard Keynes, "Consequences of Peace."
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits". --- SIR JOSIAH STAMP,(President of the Bank of England in the 1920's, the second richest man in Britain):
"The modern Banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process
is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. Banks can in
fact inflate, mint and unmint the modern ledger-entry currency".- MAJOR L .L. B. ANGUS:
"While boasting of our noble deeds were careful to conceal the ugly fact that by an iniquitous money system we have nationalized a system of oppression which, though more refined, is not less cruel than the old system of chattel slavery. - Horace Greeley
"People who will not turn a shovel full of dirt on the project (Muscle Shoals Dam) nor
contribute a pound of material, will collect more money from the United States than will the
People who supply all the material and do all the work. This is the terrible thing about
interest ...But here is the point: If the Nation can issue a dollar bond it can issue a dollar
bill. The element that makes the bond good makes the bill good also. The difference between the
bond and the bill is that the bond lets the money broker collect twice the amount of the bond
and an addi- tional 20%. Whereas the currency, the honest sort provided by the Constitution pays
nobody but those who contribute in some useful way. It is absurd to say our Country can issue
bonds and cannot issue currency. Both are promises to pay, but one fattens the usurer and the
other helps the People. If the currency issued by the People were no good, then the bonds
would be no good, either. It is a terrible situation when the Government, to insure the National
Wealth, must go in debt and submit to ruinous interest charges at the hands of men who control
the fictitious value of gold. Interest is the invention of Satan". - THOMAS A. EDISON
"By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft." --John Maynard Keynes (the father of 'Keynesian Economics' which our nation now endures) in his book "THE ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES OF THE PEACE" (1920).
"Capital must protect itself in every way...Debts must be collected and loans and mortgages
foreclosed as soon as possible. When through a process of law the common people have lost their
homes, they will be more tractable and more easily governed by the strong arm of the law applied
by the central power of leading financiers. People without homes will not quarrel with their
leaders. This is well known among our principal men now engaged in forming an imperialism of
capitalism to govern the world. By dividing the people we can get them to expend their energies
in fighting over questions of no importance to us except as teachers of the common herd."
-- Taken from the Civil Servants' Year Book, "The Organizer" January 1934.
"The Federal Reserve banks, while not part of the government,..." -- United States budget for 1991 and 1992 part 7, page 10
The Money Power! It is the greatest power on earth; and it is arrayed against Labour. No other power that is or ever was can be named with it...it attacks us through the Press - a monster with a thousand lying tongues, a beast surpassing in foulness any conceived by the mythology that invented dragons, were wolves, harpies, ghouls and vampires. It thunders against us from innumerable platforms and pulpits. The mystic machinery of the churches it turns into an engine of wrath for our destruction. Yes, so far as we are concerned, the headquarters of the Money Power is Britain. But the Money Power is not a British institution; it is cosmopolitan. It is of no nationality, but of all nationalities. It dominates the world. The Money Power has corrupted the faculties of the human soul, and tampered with the sanity of the human intellect... -- Editorial from 1907 edition of The Brisbane Worker (Australia)
...I am convinced that the agreement [Bretton Woods] will enthrone a world dictatorship of private finance more complete and terrible than and Hitlerite dream. It offers no solution of world problems, but quite blatantly sets up controls which will reduce the smaller nations to vassal states and make every government the mouthpiece and tool of International Finance. It will undermine and destroy the democratic institutions of this country - in fact as effectively as ever the Fascist forces could have done - pervert and paganise our Christian ideals; and will undoubtedly present a new menace, endangering world peace. World collaboration of private financial interests can only mean mass unemployment, slavery, misery,degredation and financial destruction. Therefore, as freedom loving Australians we should reject this infamous proposal. -- Labor Minister of Australia, Eddie Ward, during the inception of the World Bank and Bretton Woods, he gave this warning.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by John Smith (nom de guerre) (talk • contribs) 20:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC).
Dear fellow editors: User John Smith (nom de guerre) apparently inserted much of the above text dump, both here on this talk page and in the article as well. I reverted the text dump in the article. Just on first glance, some of the material is highly questionable. For example, there is a fake "quotation" attributed to the Federal Tax Lien Act of 1966. I know of no such verbiage in the Act.
A few quotations -- that can be verified as accurate -- could certainly be added to the article. The above text dump just about doubled the size of the article in one fell swoop, complete with misspelled words, quotes taken out of context (as in the familiar quotes from the Lewis case) and of course the aforementioned fake quotation attributed to the Tax Lien Act. Yours, Famspear 21:25, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Post-script: It appears this text dump may have been copied and pasted from various web sites, possibly including:
http://www.barefootsworld.net/banking-fed-quotes.html
http://www.kingdomoflight.org/international_conspiracy_exposed-edited.htm
Yours, Famspear 21:38, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Critisisms of the Federal Reserve Act
For the record: Ignoring valid critisism seems to be all the rage these days. I'm surprised that people find it ok to remove all controversy and critisism from certain pages as if the world we live in was devoid of controversy and debate. Democracy _is_ debate. If user Famspear found bona fide faults, inaccuracies etc. Why did he not remove these instead of the entire thing. Where is his documentation of "highly questionable" material after a glance"? I'd like people to put some thinking into what is objective and what is just purely omitting historical events and valid controversy for starters. See Jurgen Habermas on public discourse. I want a serious debate on what goes into Wiki, not a screaming contest on who's the holder of objective truth in historical matters and recording events of great controversy. Why would one Ignore and/or omit the views of people like the twelve years head of the commitee on banking, Edison, Senators and Presidents? This is almost ridiculously POV and biased towards people trying to find both sides of an issue. My post was in good faith that this also would be a goal for wikipedia and wikipedians. Sincerely John Smith (nom de guerre) 23:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
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- Dear user John Smith (nom de guerre): I noticed that you posted almost these same comments on the talk page for Federal Reserve System. I have responded on that talk page. Yours, Famspear 03:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Centrist Ideology of the Media
The problems with wikipedia on controversial issues seem to be that many of the US users and others have a thoroughly conservative view on history as well as economics. In this respect they seem to believe that any attempt at even remotely displaying signs of the actual controversy that has in fact occured throughout the years must be POV. I don't know if this has something to do with the educational system, the US media or just the users of wikipedia, but it creates a huge gap between europeans views of what is a fair and balanced view of history and the US version one meets on wikipedia. No serious debate is generated and there seems to be a grave lack of understanding what the history subject is all about in some cases. Often encyclopedic form is used as an excuse although huge amounts of wiki articles on current entertainment industry pieces are far more extensive and cover several scores of pages and references and supplimentary pages.
One media analyst summed it up in this fashion in his article
"Propaganda from the Middle of the Road"
The Centrist Ideology of the News Media
"Another hallmark of centrist propaganda is to affirm, no matter what the evidence, that U.S. foreign policy is geared toward promoting democracy. Journalists are not unaware that the U.S. helped overthrow democratic governments, for example, in Guatemala in '54, Brazil in '64, Chile in '73 -- but these cases are considered ancient history, no longer relevant. (In centrist ideology, since the system is constantly fixing and renewing itself, U.S. abuses -- even against democracy -- become distant past overnight.)
Mainstream journalists respond to such criticism by explaining that articles for the daily press are not history texts and cannot include everything. That's true, but centrist propaganda finds space for certain histories and not others.
from a www.fair.org article by Jeff Cohen
from http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1492
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nunamiut (talk • contribs) (on 1 April 2007)
