Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/ Medieval ship flag

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[edit] Medieval ship flag

Original

Reason: Good caption and very encyclopedic.
Proposed caption: A medieval ship flag captured by forces from Lübeck in the 1420s showed the arms of Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Pomerania. The original flag was destroyed during a World War II attack on the city, but a 19th century copy remains in Frederiksborg Palace, Denmark. The saint accompanying the Virgin Mary and infant Christ is Saint James the Greater, identified by his scallop shell emblem.
Articles this image appears in: Coat of arms of Denmark
Creator: Professor Julius Magnus Petersen

Support as nominator Bewareofdog 01:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Support - Good quality image, has interesting history and is encyclopedic --Childzy ¤ Talk 21:49, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Support - a really nice bit of history. I like that the arms of all three Scandinavian states are included in the flag, and that in a German flag. Manxruler 03:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment from the uploader: It is not a German flag. It is a flag from the former Kalmar Union which was composed of Denmark, Norway and Sweden. It dates from the reign of king Eric of Pomerania who ruled all three kingdoms, which is why the Pomeranian griffin is included as well. Valentinian ^{T / C} 15:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose due to visible half-toning. Seriously, Support. Do we have many FPs of textiles? I feel the caption needs some massaging, partly because of the confusion between the original and the copy. --Dhartung | Talk 04:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment from the uploader: The reason for the difference in caption is as follows: Karl Nikolaj Henry Petersen who wrote the book in question and who rediscovered the flag considered it to be an early version of the Dannebrog due to the red squares. This interpretation is commonly heard in Denmark but it is not commonly accepted in Norway and Sweden. Petersen also mentions that he had been told during his stay in Lübeck of a second flag that had previously hung in the church but which had disintegrated. Petersen doesn't provide the name of his informant, but he description he conveys of the second flag resembles a standard Danish naval flag. This part of the story is consequently open to interpretation and debate, but everybody agrees that this flag was used by a union vessel, that is was captured by Lübeck forces in a naval battle in either 1426 or 1427, subsequently located in a German church for 500 years and destroyed in an air raid in 1942. The controversial part of the story was not relevant in the article about the coat of arms of Denmark so I left it out from this particular caption. But it will be relevant when this image is (one day) included in the flag of Denmark article. Hope that cleared things up a bit. The webpage here has an image of the flag hanging in the church. Valentinian ^{T / C} 15:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I wasn't even referring to any of that. Is the image we're looking at the 19th century copy, which is in the palace, or are we looking at the original which was destroyed (presumably not), and which is not in Lubeck any longer? The Lubeck bit should probably be a subordinate clause or sentence. I ask in part because the quality of the textile seems too regular and less aged. So it's a copy. Just say we're looking at the copy. --Dhartung | Talk 09:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I got my wires crossed. The image you're looking at is Julius Magnus Petersen's image of the original flag, I presume that it is a drawing. My scan is from the book it first appeared in. The flag was "discovered" by Henry Petersen in 1879 and after negotiations between the Danish consul and the city authorities [Magnus Petersen] ".. was allowed to make a full size copy of the flag on behalf of the National Museum at Frederiksborg. ... I [Henry Petersen] was in Lübeck when Prof. Magnus Petersen copied the flag in June 1881, and studied it at close hand." ... "the flag is of coarse linen, on which all figures and heraldic images have been painted. The colours are very pale, the blue colour has generally turned grey." (p. 2). Henry Petersen notes that the paint had been applied thinly and that it must have been oil-based paint, since he couldn't dissolve a sample in water. The front and back were painted as mirrors of each other. (page 3). I am not aware of any other images of the original flag, save the (poor) photo mentioned above which is missing the Virgin Mary and Christ. Most books I've seen use the drawing as illustration - e.g. Salmonsens Konversationsleksikon [1] - but Erling Svane (1994): Det danske Rigsvåben og Kongevåben has a photo of the replica (p. 79). Valentinian ^{T / C} 10:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)